David Sirlin's Yomi

[Silmerion]

(Okay, so it's not quite a fighting game, but it's close enough.)

http://www.sirlingames.com/collections/yomi

Yomi, developed and self-published by the (in)famous David Sirlin, is basically a fighting game card game. Currently, there are ten different decks available, each representing a different character; each deck is composed of 54 cards: 52 normal playing cards and two jokers.

The game is pretty simple to pick up. Combat plays out very similarly to rock-paper-scissors: each player plays a face-down card, then both cards are revealed simultaneously. Attacks beat throws and slower attacks; throws beat blocks, dodges, and slower throws; and blocks and dodges both beat attacks.

• If you land an attack or throw, you can go for a combo; each character has a certain number of combo points they can use, and each attack or throw consumes a set number of points.
  
  
• If you play a block card, it gets returned to your hand at end of combat unless you got thrown. If you successfully block an attack, you draw a card.
  
  
• If you play a dodge card and successfully dodge an attack, you can hit back with a single attack or throw.
  
  
• There are also jokers; they function almost identically to bursts in Guilty Gear. After you lose combat, you get a chance to play a joker or a bluff card face-down; if you play a joker face-down and your opponent decides to try and combo you anyway, you can flip it over to cancel the combo and draw two cards. You can also play the joker offensively; it beats attacks and throws, and when you hit with it you get to search your deck for two Aces (basically your super moves; amusingly, using a joker offensively is called "Gold Burst").
  

Each character also has special abilities that no other character has.

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I am going absolutely nuts over this game right now (as you might be able to tell by my avatar/signature). It is so much fun, and simple enough to pick up that people who are scared off by fighting games' mechanical difficulty can get right into the complicated mindgames. It might not be a video game, but it is certainly a fighting game, and a great one at that.

[TD]

it looks very interesting. the concept is nice and so is the artwork. are there any tournaments of this, or notable player videos? l would like to see the mindgames employed in this game.

[Silmerion]

it looks very interesting. the concept is nice and so is the artwork. are there any tournaments of this, or notable player videos? l would like to see the mindgames employed in this game.

I don't know of any videos or tournament reports you could read, sorry. I can give you a couple of examples, though?

- The character I play the most is named DeGrey. His Ace card has a special dodge on it called "Ghost Riposte": it returns to my hand at end of combat unless I got thrown, and if I dodge an attack with it I get to hit back with a full combo, rather than a single attack or throw. It's very powerful; in fact, it's the best dodge in the game. Trouble is, people will almost always know when it's in your hand - either they'll have seen you play it, or they'll have seen you fetch for it - so people will try to play around it. One of the challenges of playing DeGrey is measuring how likely your opponent is to try and play around Ghost Riposte and calculating your actions accordingly, while also lulling them into a false sense of security that makes them more likely to attack. These two goals aren't always aligned, in fact they're sometimes at odds - it's a balancing act.

- One of DeGrey's special abilities is called "Troublesome Rhetoric" - it's on his 4. Using Troublesome Rhetoric lets you name attack, throw, block, or dodge, and if the opponent uses that option as their combat card this turn, you gain 12 life (most characters start at around 80-90 life). Using this card effectively requires timing and a good understanding of your opponent's tendencies - usually your opponent will just not use that card this turn, but sometimes you can use Troublesome Rhetoric to trick your opponent into doing the very thing you name. For example: say I've been using Ghost Riposte a lot and my opponent is tired of getting combo'd. I could discard Troublesome Rhetoric and name "Throw" - a sure tell that I'm going for another Riposte. In my opponent's irritation, he decides to go for the throw anyway - what's 12 life if it means he no longer has to deal with my annoying dodge? So he throws...straight into my Pilebunker. "Take 14. I gain 12."

That's the kind of thing that happens routinely, and every character's is a little bit different. For example, Valerie's a big combo character, but her attacks aren't really fast enough to beat other attacks, and since she has almost no built-in card drawing your hand tends to empty pretty quickly if you attack too much. She has to lean on her blocks more than other aggressive characters, both to draw cards and to make the opponent want to throw her so she can start a combo. It's about setting up the pins and knocking them down, except the pins have a mind of their own that you constantly have to guess at.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Silmerion

[BURI]

Sirlin's board games have a distinct "fighter-ish" feel about them and are all great, I really want to import this one. The only sad thing is that it probably won't have the scene it deserves compared to other card games.

[Star-Demon]

That's pretty neat.

Looks neat, too.

[SoWL]

Oh, darn, someone got himself that DeGrey avatar that I wanted to make for myself! Well, I can't blame you, he's awesome.

Got myself the whole Sirlin pack this Spring, and it's been lots of fun. Local BB players also love the hell out of it, and I like that it's very simple to explain to an experienced fighter (the only thing that they "huh?" about is attacks beating throws and "small throw-tech window" when same-speed throws clash). I mostly play Setsuki, with DeGrey as a sub. Surprisingly, I don't like neither of the grapplers or Lum that much, even though I usually main a grappler and a Schrodinger-Fu character in every fighting I play.

Since I can't rearrange my sig so it fits another link, I guess I should make a BattleCon thread, too.

[Silmerion]

Sirlin's board games have a distinct "fighter-ish" feel about them and are all great, I really want to import this one. The only sad thing is that it probably won't have the scene it deserves compared to other card games.

The great thing about Yomi is that it's so simple to pick up that you can probably convince a few of your friends to play it with you routinely, and a dozen more to play it with you occasionally. The scene forms itself.

Oh, darn, someone got himself that DeGrey avatar that I wanted to make for myself! Well, I can't blame you, he's awesome.

Got myself the whole Sirlin pack this Spring, and it's been lots of fun. Local BB players also love the hell out of it, and I like that it's very simple to explain to an experienced fighter (the only thing that they "huh?" about is attacks beating throws and "small throw-tech window" when same-speed throws clash). I mostly play Setsuki, with DeGrey as a sub. Surprisingly, I don't like neither of the grapplers or Lum that much, even though I usually main a grappler and a Schrodinger-Fu character in every fighting I play.

DeGrey IS awesome. Jedi mind tricks for days.

I've been playing a lot of DeGrey and subbing Midori and Valerie. I like those two for the oddball challenges they present - Midori's ostensibly a grappler, but requires an inordinate amount of setup and opponent-training to do his Dragon Form thing properly; and Valerie is a combo character that has to be very, very careful about when she combos and empties her hand (unlike Setsuki, Jaina, and Lum, who have a lot of built-in recursion/card draw and are more or less encouraged to unload at every opportunity).

So I guess I like awkward characters?

Was Argagarg the character you had the hardest time getting used to fighting? He was for me.

[SoWL]

Arg's not that bad, actually, as long as you know how to transform your cards into damage, so the game won't last for too long. We had an Arg-Mid game that started with both players playing an attack (since blocking and throwing is too obvious), and ended with Arg dealing about 50 damage with his passive.

And why would you follow-up PB with Sexy Justice? Mappa (J) is better in pretty much every way, and saving Sexy Justice for neutral game makes it more profitable.

Have you tried testing the expansion characters? Persephone and Gwen look like the character that I'd pick up, but that's just because I don't get the rest of them yet.

[Silmerion]

And why would you follow-up PB with Sexy Justice? Mappa (J) is better in pretty much every way, and saving Sexy Justice for neutral game makes it more profitable.

I totally agree. My original sig was going to be Ghost Riposte -> Pilebunker -> 6 -> Daggerfall Thrust, but it was too long.

There is sometimes a pretty good reason to throw away the DP, though: it's a good way to make your opponent feel more secure being aggressive, which you can use to your advantage.

Have you tried testing the expansion characters? Persephone and Gwen look like the character that I'd pick up, but that's just because I don't get the rest of them yet.

I have not! Would you be willing to link me?

I do know that Sirlin is testing a rule that would make attacks cantrip whenever they don't get beat out by faster attacks. I like that rule a lot, because attacking from neutral in this game feels really risky right now.

[SoWL]

Huh, that's an interesting point about K, I never considered it. Though knocking them down with PB usually leads to similar plays ("I can't dodge and my blocks are risky, better get aggressive!").

You can get the playtest versions of new characters here, with a minor update located here. They're also working on some rules updates, which can have a major influence on the general gameplay.

[Silmerion]

Huh, that's an interesting point about K, I never considered it. Though knocking them down with PB usually leads to similar plays ("I can't dodge and my blocks are risky, better get aggressive!").

I never have the self-control to end on Pilebunker.

I'm pretty bad at reading my opponent during oki. Maybe if I actually knocked down more often I'd be better at that, hm?

You can get the playtest versions of new characters here, with a minor update located here. They're also working on some rules updates, which can have a major influence on the general gameplay.

Thanks! The site seems to be down at the moment, but I'll take a look after work today.

[Silmerion]

EDIT 2:

Disregard what I originally had in this post. I was a little too harsh, I think.

In summary, Onimaru, Bal-Bas-Beta, and Gloria look like a lot of fun. I think Menelker is actively bad for the game - his mechanics are super oppressive, even if they're balanced. Quince, Persephone, and Menelker have mechanics (Quince's 2, Persephone's Ace and 10, and Menelker's 7 and 10) that make Yomi feel like less of a fighting game and more of a card game, and I think that's a bad thing. I also think that most of the card-suit-matters mechanics are poorly implemented and end up being just another annoying variable to track.

Edited June 22, 2012 by Silmerion

[SoWL]

The colors are supposed to represent punches (red) and kicks (black). You can even see it on the normal attacks: they have different illustrations depending on the color.

I agree that the characters are more complicated than the ones in the base set, partially because Sirlin has been planning to implement some Street Fighter characters for a while, and they don't work well in card form. How would a Dhalsim-like zoner supposed to work in a game without a stage? However, I think that playing with them is going to be less complicated than reading the cards, even if they are not grokable.

Just in case: don't forget that you can always post your opinion on Sirlin's forums.

[Silmerion]

The colors are supposed to represent punches (red) and kicks (black). You can even see it on the normal attacks: they have different illustrations depending on the color.

Maybe so, but that doesn't really explain stuff like Zane's 5. Besides, I think flavor stuff like that is best when it's obvious, not when it's learned.

Just in case: don't forget that you can always post your opinion on Sirlin's forums.

EDIT: Eh. I think the expansion's probably too far long in development for the changes I'd like to see (i.e. sweeping reduction in suit-matters, Menelker gets completely changed). Edited June 22, 2012 by Silmerion

[Silmerion]

Man, I'm excited about the normal draw rule. Valerie's optimal play is really unintuitive as it is right now ("I'm a combo character, so I should...block a lot?").

It does seem like it would cause problems for Rook and Midori though.

[SoWL]

Maybe so, but that doesn't really explain stuff like Zane's 5. Besides, I think flavor stuff like that is best when it's obvious, not when it's learned.

Zane's 5 is just a cross-up mix-up, I guess. If that tells you anything, he's supposed to be the local Bison, though I've never really played SF and don't know how he plays.

EDIT: Eh. I think the expansion's probably too far long in development for the changes I'd like to see (i.e. sweeping reduction in suit-matters, Menelker gets completely changed).

They're going to test it for a while, and some major changes have been done in the late phases of the base set's development, so it's worth a try. Menelker is supposed to be the character that only seems unfair, so if any of his abilities actually are, that's a valid reason to tweak it.

[Silmerion]

They're going to test it for a while, and some major changes have been done in the late phases of the base set's development, so it's worth a try. Menelker is supposed to be the character that only seems unfair, so if any of his abilities actually are, that's a valid reason to tweak it.

Eh. I'm not nearly as angry about it as I was - I just kind of overreact to stuff sometimes. This was one of those times, I think. There's a certain section of the playerbase that's going to love Menelker as he is right now.

I did a 72-damage combo with Geiger last night. Felt like a Goddamn king.

[Hecatom]

So i finally decided to buy the complete 1st edition

I am expecting here around 1 week from today

Just some questions, how many card come with every character package, since i want to buy some covers to keep the cards safe

And from the pic on the site i assume that the cards are similar in size to the magic so i guess that i can buy magic covers for my yomi cards

[SoWL]

The cards are exactly the same as the usual playing cards, both in size and in number. In fact, you can use the deck of any character to play poker or whatever right out of the box, though I have no idea why you'd do that.

[TheRealBobMan]

I tried that once. Puzzle Strike chips work well for poker chips, but the Yomi cards are frustrating to use as poker cards. It's easy to mistake throws for cards of their damage output instead of their numerical value. We switched to regular cards after only 2 or 3 hands.

Also, they're pretty sturdy. I brought my set to a party once and the guy I was teaching to play spilled some booze on one of my decks, but after wiping them off thoroughly, they seemed fine.

Don't forget that jokers are part of the game, so that's 54 cards per deck to account for, so 540 total.

[Hecatom]

Thanks for the info bros

[Agni]

My friends love card games like Yu-Gi-Oh, I love fightig games, and I want to get into card games. This game looks great for us. I'm gonna get them hype for this.

Anyone else think it would be awesome is the creators of this game could get licenses for real FG characters? Playig this game with GG or BB chars would be really cool. Probably just a pipe dream, though.

[Hecatom]

My friends love card games like Yu-Gi-Oh, I love fightig games, and I want to get into card games. This game looks great for us. I'm gonna get them hype for this.

Anyone else think it would be awesome is the creators of this game could get licenses for real FG characters? Playig this game with GG or BB chars would be really cool. Probably just a pipe dream, though.

Yomi originally started as a SF TCG, but capcom get anal so Sirlin instead of letting his idea die, made it with original characters

http://www.gamersglobal.com/files/imagecache/full_teaser/files/news_teaser/yomi.png