Fluck Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Correct. I'm a weeaboo failure. Carthage you can 'over-mash' and you'll still get 16 hits, you only drop it if you press D too late.
andylawlz Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 welp; thanks haha I think I was just assuming shit.
Rhiya Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 This is quite possibly one of the silliest hitboxes I have seen for a poke like this in a game considered as good as P4A
Primiera Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Do you guys use 214C/D in footsies? I noticed high level Chies throw it out occasionally, it almost looks positive on block.
2link121 Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 How do you prevent the All-Out Finish in challenge 26 from knocking you to far away to continue the combo? I don't know if you still need help with this, but you need to get all sixteen hits(Fatal) after the AoA. Also if you have trouble with connecting the j.BB> j.C > 236C at the end try super jumping after the 5B
FlameIce Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Do you guys use 214C/D in footsies? I noticed high level Chies throw it out occasionally, it almost looks positive on block. I use it a lot. That and 5C dash cancel.
andylawlz Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Worth noting 214D on counter hit wallbounces and you can do 236b 236b 236D or god hand d as a combo afterwards
DC Posted August 16, 2012 Author Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) His AoA is inferior to Chie's, and Raging Lion is an extremely weak overhead. Compared to what? Chie's only overhead option is 23 frame AOA, which is the speed of an average standing overhead. It will hit sometimes, it will miss sometimes. Missing will get you punished. Raging Lion is a bit slower but it is both safe on block and can be extremely hard to see with 5d oki. Roll/dive kick crossups are stronger mixups, but still not on the level of what Chie can do. Like what? Damage wise, they are comparable midscreen and meterless but Narukami absolutely loses out in the corner where he gets around 2.4k and no knockdown. Narukami can easily hit 4k in the corner. Yuu also loses out on FC punishes with no meter (gets about 2.9k). With meter, they're much more even. Chie wins by about 500-1k worth of damage depending on the exact combo. Yuu also has inferior damage on AoA combos, be it corner or midscreen, again by 500 damage or more. Again, not only does Narukami in actuality hit comparable damage to Chie, even if it was "500-1000k" less damage, his superior offense, neutral and oki make up for this without a doubt. Personally I think Chie is as good as Yuu but I don't mind admitting that Yuu could very well be stronger. I actually mainly posted to say that the characters aren't similar types. Narukami is the stronger character. I don't believe that anyone was arguing that they are similar characters at all, all that was said is that Narukami can do a similar hard knockdown > oki as Chie but undeniably does it better, along with better offense and neutral. Chie is definitely a strong character in her own right. Her mobility is better than Naru's and the advantages she probably has over Yu is the ability to get higher damage off of random hits (say, a CH j.B leads to just under 4k) and the fact that everything is jump cancellable. But I think overall it's safe to say Narukami is the stronger character of the two. (But AGAIN, nobody is saying Chie is bad or weak character at all.) Edited August 16, 2012 by DC
Rhiya Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 214A isn't safe on -- *tests* son of a bitch, why the fuck is that safe Anyways, I'd probably argue that Chie's 5A is a better pressure tool than anything Yu has
DC Posted August 16, 2012 Author Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Again, they have the exact same 5a. EDIT: Startup-wise, but I can't imagine the recovery being any different. Edited August 16, 2012 by DC
Rhiya Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) Chie's is +1. She has the only jab with frame advantage in the game EDIT: For comparison, Yu's 5A is -2 Edited August 16, 2012 by Dusk Thanatos
Sorias Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Really? That seems absurd to mash the buttons at such an exact rate. Oh well. It's easier than you'd think. Note that you can hit A and B together while mashing, so exactly 15 hits is the initial hit, plus hitting A+B exactly 7 times, you have to do it too fast to count or anything, but you can practice for it and pick up the muscle memory. It's also super useful to watch the hit counter, and you can basically estimate when it's going to hit 15, and switch to C or D.
ZomB Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 How has there been no mention of meteors, the most broken neutral move in the game? And Chie's counter is nice for forcing an early awakening. And yes Chie has better frame data on her 5a and scores more damage on air to air counterhits. She can also use her C/D series to alter her fall timing/trajectory. An incredibly undervalued application.
kirbster Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 DC, Chie has a pretty much unreactable overhead off knockdown into 5dd with her AD j.bb Also what makes her 5a superior isn't the speed but rather that it's +1 so you can stagger it
jesseBoKe Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) I followed the JP wiki (they have a subheading for "I can't get all the hits with AOA, my fingers hurt", lol) and got it down pretty well. They only recommend 5 double hits but the key being when you start. You can start just before the smoke when you see the followup first hit. The button sequence I was hitting and getting fatal counter every time was: AB, A, wait till red flash just before smoke, ABx5, C/D. While the JP wiki says this will give you time to calmly choose between C and D that wasn't really my experience, though I could certainly decide as I'm hitting ABx5, which became pretty smooth after a few minutes practice link to wiki page Edited August 16, 2012 by jesseBoKe
Rhiya Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Looking around, it's kind of funny The Chie forum is like FUCK NARUKAMI Everyone else is like FUCK CHIE
Sorias Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 How has there been no mention of meteors, the most broken neutral move in the game? Because this is an incredibly false statement? Yu gets a free beam super on reaction if Chie activates meteors, a number of other characters can also do reaction super depending on spacing. Most of the cast can simply jump and do a back air-dash which takes you completely out of the meteors unless you were in the corner. The move isn't actually all that safe, and is basically a waste of meter if you don't have a pretty good sense of timing and positioning when you use it. I don't understand this attitude that meteors is broken... even in the best case scenario it just forces the opponent to block one or two mixup opportunities. Which is good... but it's basically the same as forcing the opponent to block a Tomoe D attack but with spending meter for some extra range.
ZomB Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I never said "this is a free win spam it lol" But you said it yourself, it can set up free mixups when used properly and intelligently. Assuming you don't waste meter giving up oki for marginal damage, you'll get two sets of meteors during which you'll build meter for a god's fist ender. That's 2-4 free mixups, which is more than enough to win off of.
Rhiya Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Because this is an incredibly false statement? Yu gets a free beam super on reaction if Chie activates meteors, a number of other characters can also do reaction super depending on spacing. Most of the cast can simply jump and do a back air-dash which takes you completely out of the meteors unless you were in the corner. The move isn't actually all that safe, and is basically a waste of meter if you don't have a pretty good sense of timing and positioning when you use it. I don't understand this attitude that meteors is broken... even in the best case scenario it just forces the opponent to block one or two mixup opportunities. Which is good... but it's basically the same as forcing the opponent to block a Tomoe D attack but with spending meter for some extra range. It literally lets you get in for free on the vast majority of the cast
Fluck Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) Compared to what? Chie's only overhead option is 23 frame AOA, which is the speed of an average standing overhead. It will hit sometimes, it will miss sometimes. Missing will get you punished. Raging Lion is a bit slower but it is both safe on block and can be extremely hard to see with 5d oki. Chie's AoA is the fastest AoA in the game. To be fair, Yu's is only 1 frame slower, but that frame makes a lot of difference. Average AoA speed is around 28 frames in this game. Raging Lion is super punishable, it's very easy to DP it on reaction. Like what? Stronger empty jump/air dash mixups, the availability of Rampage as a high/low, especially when coupled with dirty OMCs. She can has access to good jump cancels for crossups and has the fastest AoA, like I mentioned. Narukami can easily hit 4k in the corner. Sure, if you spend meter, get the right starter, and forfeit oki. Chie will get more than that every time. Unless I'm mistaken, Narukami can't get 4k in the corner even with 50 meter and 5B starter, which is actually one of his better ones. Again, not only does Narukami in actuality hit comparable damage to Chie, even if it was "500-1000k" less damage, his superior offense, neutral and oki make up for this without a doubt. His offense is not superior. But I can accept that his neutral is significantly better than Chie's. Narukami is the stronger character. I don't believe that anyone was arguing that they are similar characters at all, all that was said is that Narukami can do a similar hard knockdown > oki as Chie but undeniably does it better, along with better offense and neutral. *Shrug* some people were complaining about him being better in every way. He isn't, they are quite different characters. Chie is definitely a strong character in her own right. Her mobility is better than Naru's and the advantages she probably has over Yu is the ability to get higher damage off of random hits (say, a CH j.B leads to just under 4k) and the fact that everything is jump cancellable. But I think overall it's safe to say Narukami is the stronger character of the two. (But AGAIN, nobody is saying Chie is bad or weak character at all.) Well, like I said I feel that they're about as good, but I'm not gonna say that it's impossible for Yu to be stronger. It's quite possible. Civil, actual gameplay discussion on Dustloop :o Edited August 17, 2012 by Fluck
DC Posted August 17, 2012 Author Posted August 17, 2012 Chie's is +1. She has the only jab with frame advantage in the game EDIT: For comparison, Yu's 5A is -2 Alright, didn't realize the static difference frame data was out already. DC, Chie has a pretty much unreactable overhead off knockdown into 5dd with her AD j.bb Also what makes her 5a superior isn't the speed but rather that it's +1 so you can stagger it No, her j.bb by itself is not hard to react to at all. After hard knockdown, what makes her mixup ambiguous is air turn backdash 2a. She lands faster than normal making it hard to follow if you're expecting a normal air dash.
Rhiya Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Alright, didn't realize the static difference frame data was out already. Only for jabs and AoAs, unfortunately. Hopefully someone figures out a good method for getting more framedata soon
Primiera Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Sure, if you spend meter, get the right starter, and forfeit oki. Chie will get more than that every time. Unless I'm mistaken, Narukami can't get 4k in the corner even with 50 meter and 5B starter, which is actually one of his better ones. Chie's actually the same way, she needs the right starter and a good amount of meter to reach 4K. Most of her BnB corner oki enders are 2-3K damage.
Fluck Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) Narukami's corner combos usually don't end in oki and they do about 2200-2500. When I say oki, I mean that he doesn't even get knockdown. Chie can put up those numbers while getting knockdown. He only gets knockdown from specific starters like 5B. Chie corner combos, 50% meter 2A > 5B > 5C > 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5B > 5C > 214C > 236236D (50%@4000) 5B > 2B > 236A > 236A > 5B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 5C > 236B > 236B > 214D > 236236D (50%@5095) Narukami corner combos starting from 2A/5B and ending in Ziodyne do around 1k less damage and Ziodyne gives no knockdown, unlike God Hand Edited August 17, 2012 by Fluck
kenmastersX Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Was anyone aware that SB version of black spot (214+CD) had armor on it? It seems that the armor is not there at startup, but when she starts moving her palms forward. SB version is not a fatal though, but I'm sure this would be good to make people eat counterhits and it still wallbounces on hit.
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