Chris Chaos Posted January 19, 2013 Author Posted January 19, 2013 I will put explanations down for the Offense and Defense sections soon, unless someone else really wants to. Don't think I'm the best at explaining things but it would be nice if those sections weren't left blank. Thanks for the additions to the wiki. I've added defensive tips into the wiki, they're basic but its straightforward. If you feel it needs a deeper explanation or something is missing, feel free to make changes.
Narroo Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Thanks for the additions to the wiki. I've added defensive tips into the wiki, they're basic but its straightforward. If you feel it needs a deeper explanation or something is missing, feel free to make changes. I do have a question about a combo or two; 5A > 5C > 2B > 5B > 2A+B > 5D - (1399) Seems to be pretty unstable. Even if your right up against the opponent, they fall out of range for the sweep most of the time; I've only been able to get it off like 3 times so far. Leaving 5B off makes it much easier, though you loose a bit of damage. 5B > 214C - (903) What's the reasoning behind this? For instance, 5B > 5C > 214D seems to do a lot more damage, move your opponent back much father, ends in the same state as 5B > 214C, and isn't much harder to do. Is there something I'm missing here?
Tong Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 5B > 214C - (903) What's the reasoning behind this? For instance, 5B > 5C > 214D seems to do a lot more damage, move your opponent back much father, ends in the same state as 5B > 214C, and isn't much harder to do. Is there something I'm missing here? Distance. 5C will whiff if 5B hits with the tip.
Narroo Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Distance. 5C will whiff if 5B hits with the tip. Ah, okay. Perhaps we should put some kinda of note in such as 5B > (2B)* > (5C)* > 214D ()* = distance sensitive. Might not be too elegant, but it would be more clear, especially since the 5A combo is so sensitive to distance (Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong), so we can have some consistency? Or would it be better just to stick in a sweep combo and just have different combos for different distances? Edited January 19, 2013 by Narroo
skd Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 instead of putting it in the notation, for something that simple you can just put it in notes detailing the purpose of the combo, and any changes that might need to be made in certain situations "omit 5C at ranges where 5C would whiff" etc. 214C recovers faster, and allows a safe jump as opposed to 214D which allows normal meaty.
xlolxlolx Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 its pretty obvious when it will whiff if you ever messed around with it for even like a minute in training room lol
Tong Posted January 19, 2013 Posted January 19, 2013 Sucks when you're used to 5B 5C always hitting with Ragna
VR-Raiden Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) Thanks for the additions to the wiki. I've added defensive tips into the wiki, they're basic but its straightforward. If you feel it needs a deeper explanation or something is missing, feel free to make changes. Cool thanks. I'm planning to expand on what I put for offense too. I do have a question about a combo or two; 5A > 5C > 2B > 5B > 2A+B > 5D - (1399) Seems to be pretty unstable. Even if your right up against the opponent, they fall out of range for the sweep most of the time; I've only been able to get it off like 3 times so far. Leaving 5B off makes it much easier, though you loose a bit of damage. 5B > 214C - (903) What's the reasoning behind this? For instance, 5B > 5C > 214D seems to do a lot more damage, move your opponent back much father, ends in the same state as 5B > 214C, and isn't much harder to do. Is there something I'm missing here? I can see what you're saying about the 5A combo, most likely at the time I just listed the max possible damage into 5D, and wasn't taking practicality into account. I think that only works if you're super in their face, like from a dash, but I'll try it again and adjust it. And yes as Tong said, 5B > 214C is for max range 5B where 5C will not reach. It's definitely worth knowing, since you can safe jB after it as SKD said. It's not the easiest thing to hit confirm in the world but it's not too bad. Same idea with CH 5B > 2C, good from max range 5B. It's also a pretty good string whether you confirm it hit or not, and if it did you can dash cancel into a safe jB + huuuge corner carry. instead of putting it in the notation, for something that simple you can just put it in notes detailing the purpose of the combo, and any changes that might need to be made in certain situations "omit 5C at ranges where 5C would whiff" etc. 214C recovers faster, and allows a safe jump as opposed to 214D which allows normal meaty. Yeah I'll try to add notes to certain combos, and spell out when they should be used if needed. Edited January 20, 2013 by VR-Raiden
Narroo Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I'd hate to ask something so simple, but what do you mean by "safe jump." Just a jump that's safe because they're in hitstun? What's the difference between that and a normal jumping meaty?
skd Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I'd hate to ask something so simple, but what do you mean by "safe jump." Just a jump that's safe because they're in hitstun? What's the difference between that and a normal jumping meaty? you jump and come down with an attack in such a way that if the opponent tries to do an invincible move, you recover in time (due to landing) to block it due to their startup, essentially forcing them to block (if they dp/roll/anything they will always get punished)
crimsonstardust Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 Alright I'm having trouble doing this combo right now. *copied and pasted from the wiki* 5B > 5C > 214D (OMB) > 5D > dash 2A+B > 214B > 5DD > (214B hits) > dash 2B > j.C > j.214B > 2B > j.C > j.214A > 214214C - (5815) I usually can't get 5DD to connect after 2A+B consistently, I kind know I have to do 2A+B after the second hit on 5D, and when I do get 214B to 2B, I can't get Izanagi to do j.C in the air, he's still on the ground when I do it.
Tong Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 (edited) Delay dash 2B (dont just dash, ruuuuun)... there's plenty of time to do it. Edit: Actually, you're supposed to: 5D > dash 2AB~5DD >214B That link is tight, and 214B must hit during 2AB and 5DD. My advice still stand though, delay 2B after 214B hits. Dont bother however, this combo is impractical. Train this, you'll be only missing 400 dmg: 5B 5C 214D OMB 5D dash2AB 5B 214B 5DD dash 2B j.C j.214A 214214C (5471) Edit2: Looks like I managed to get it down consistently by doing: dash 2AB > 214B > 5DD, instead of 214B~5DD Edited January 22, 2013 by Tong
VR-Raiden Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 (edited) Not gonna lie, that combo is difficult, you have to time the sweep properly (which may be character specific timing?) then input everything asap. And you don't want to be dropping a combo you use your burst for. But it does add a good chunk of damage. The easy-mode alternative (which I usually go for in matches currently) is omitting the 2A+B and just doing OMB > 5D > dash 5B > 5DD > 214B, etc. Or what Tong posted where you do the 2A+B earlier. Edited January 23, 2013 by VR-Raiden
Elochai Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Am I missing something, or is j.D as useless as I assume it to be? Ending combos in j.2A > j.D just seems pointless.
VR-Raiden Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Am I missing something, or is j.D as useless as I assume it to be? Ending combos in j.2A > j.D just seems pointless. It pretty much is. Using j.D limits your combo options after it if you land a hit, and "mix-ups" after it are pretty bad. You have to meaty 5A or they can just jump/roll out. You can throw, but that loses to jumping. Both of these options lose to reversals, and you're in throw range if you decide to block. It's just too much of a guessing game, you have much better options after just j.2A by itself.
skd Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 It pretty much is. Using j.D limits your combo options after it if you land a hit, and "mix-ups" after it are pretty bad. You have to meaty 5A or they can just jump/roll out. You can throw, but that loses to jumping. Both of these options lose to reversals, and you're in throw range if you decide to block. It's just too much of a guessing game, you have much better options after just j.2A by itself. i feel like its good in corner after 214C 5A 5C j2A jD, you can meaty 5A and if gives you damage + 5d oki if you confirm off of a hit, and if they block the meaty 5a and you do an airtight string into jD connecting, then empty jump airdash/2a/whatever mixup behind the cloud during the blockstun jD provides~ at the same time when you commit to something after j2A you still have a chance of being dp'd, its not like you can safe jump off of it so your options arent substantially better yet your reward off of jD is to either convert into a hit with extra damage into oki or get a mixup behind the cloud *during blockstun* which isnt bad at all! so at the same time on the first hit (5A) you still commit to a reversalable situation, the risk is pretty much the same.
VR-Raiden Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 How exactly do you combo to 5D oki from a hit involving j.D? A big reason I didn't like it was because I didn't think you could do that.
skd Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) How exactly do you combo to 5D oki from a hit involving j.D? A big reason I didn't like it was because I didn't think you could do that. just go into something like 5A 2A 2A 2B(1) 5B 214B j214B 5D, its meaty enough to hit roll if you hit with the dive right. i think im gonna upload a video breaking down the use of jD, its really not bad lol. its just pretty much only good off of mid height dive kick and 214C stuff haha (pretty much limiting its use to corner) edit: i guess ill write it up first, then make a video okay, so the way i look at are there are 4 major points when using jD j2A jD... Then, you have 4 gatling choices to make use of jD. since there are so many gatling possibilities, ill just list things by their effect and point 1(Essentially always meaty 5A) 2 3 (jD first hit connects) 4 (jD second hit connects) before reading, the positioning of jD is really important. off of ..214B j2A jD, the persona positioning allows you to integrate grabs into your mixup. if you do it off of ...214C 5A 5C j2A, the persona wont be close enough to the corner to allow real grab followup improvements. anything that mentions grab is under the assumption that its after 214B j2A jD. off of 214C 5A 5C j2A, stick to highlow mixup. 1) the first hit is most often 5A! its intent is meaty, to make them block. you can get reversal-ed however, but once you establish this blockstring the rest of your options open up. however, at point you can also opt to go for a grab(but the reward sucks, so dont do this) 2) next hit can either be a overhead or low. grabbing at the second point makes the persona attack connect during the grab which sorta messes up a followup combo, so i dont really advise this either. 5A > 214A works for overhead, (persona connects during hitstun. if connects at this point, you can combo 214A (jD) 214B j214B 2B jC j214B 5D for oki or even a damage combo ). or 5A > staggered 2A is your low of choice during this gatling, or you could keep it airtight if you want, or opt for another move. sweep doesnt allow a followup at this point of the string. after 2A, if you confirm into another normal (notably 2B because of its jump cancel property, which ill go into more detail on later) and confirm into a combo into 5D oki if it connects(i posted this combo earlier). Because 2A is so fast, you can do 2A 2A and still sorta have it qualify as your "2nd gatling" but follow the timing of the option for canceling into 214A for a better mixup due to the delay before the actual 214A connects. (example, 5A 2AA 214A (hits overhead), same rules apply to following up 214A at the third gatling BUT doing 2AA fucks up the timing for empty jump airdash mixup, but still lets you get a jump in that your opponent *may* chose to respect (jB is airtight, you can choose to airdash empty jump low but its susceptible to dp's/mashing. it also eliminates the grab mixup at the third portion, but keeps your string airtight. your choice!)) 3) this is the really important, big big gatling. at this point, your options become high low mid(Jump cancelable) and grab. if you grab at this part, the persona sticks itself in the corner behind the opponent allowing your corner combo to become 5C 2C 44 2AB 5D(!!!). if you cancel into 214A, you need to blow 25 meter to convert into oki (214A (jD connects) 5B jBB j214AB 2B jC j214B 5D) but your low options become more threatening as well. you can opt to cancel into sweep (which at this point, can cancel into 214B for a seriously damaging combo or back into oki). alternatively, if you cancel into a jump cancelable normal (2B ideally) you get a high low mixup with airdash vs empty jump low while the persona attacks, keeping your opponent in blockstun. however, if you commit to this option doing 2AA beforehand will make narukami take too long to long and your opponent will come out of blockstun right before the attack connects, opening you up to stuff if they decide to disrespect a potential safe jump. 4) doing a jump cancelable normal at this point (example, 5A 2A 5B 2B(2) jump jB) allows you to safe jump after the persona attack. your opponent comes out of blockstun at just the right time. you can also hit with 214A and sweep and confirm in the same way as in part 3! but since they are already in blockstun from the persona attack, grab isnt an option anymore. jeez that was a lot OK EXAMPLE STRINGS ...jD 5A(Meaty, blocked) 2A (staggered) 2B(JC) Persona attacks, airdash/empty jump low into oki ...jD 5A(Meaty, blocked) 2A(Hits)A 2B(1) 5B 214B j214B 5D ...jD 5A(Meaty, blocked) 214A(Hits) 214B j214B 2B jC j214B 5D ...jD 5A(Meaty, blocked) 2AA(Hits) 2B(1) 2AB 214B etc. ...jD 5A(Meaty, blocked) 2AA 214A(Hits) 5B jBB j214AB 2B jC j214B 5D ...jD 5A(Meaty, blocked) 2A dash grab(connects) 5C 2C 44 2AB 5D you get the picture, im tired as hell v_v Edited March 16, 2013 by not_lunaris
VR-Raiden Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 ohh 214B > j.214B. Maybe you posted that once a while ago and I forgot. I thought if they got hit you lost pretty much any good oki options afterwards, so that changes my opinion of it a bit. I still don't like the idea of being forced to 5A, or block within throw range, but I can see what you're saying. I did remember you can safely do jump in mix-ups if they're in blockstun from it. Anyways I'll look forward to a vid.
Tong Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) You also can combo off of AOA j.2A j.D, if you cancel falling j.B(1) into j.214A (Sure they can reversal it...). Theorically, you should be safe even if they block the j.214A (no one ever does) On hit, you can combo into 214B 2B j.C j.214B 2B j.C j.214A ... j.214A j.D only combos in corner, but you can corner-carry them midscreen. Needs some field testing though haha Edited January 30, 2013 by Tong
skd Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 yeah, i edited my post. oops. took a while. but all that stuff works, its very much hitconfirmable.
crimsonstardust Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 I'm having trouble picking up my opponent after a cross slash when they land behind me, anyone got any timing tips for this?
Tong Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Timing can't be really explained, just learned. But I look at the untechable gauge (below hit counter), and when it gets empty I wait like half second and input 2B/2A.
crimsonstardust Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Ok I'll try that out when I'm in the lab again.
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