BBCP Story Thread [Old]

[Ehecatl]

By the way, I just noticed something interesting. I'm probably not the first but this thread HAS gone for 186 pages. Anyway, Ragna's got a tattoo of a number 05 on his chest. This, along with Hazama telling Noel about her having "brothers" as well as "sisters", would seem to imply there are male prime field devices and that him himself is likely one. Now, remember when we all fought V-13 in Calamity Trigger? Where was the Cauldron for V-13? In the 13th Hierarchical City of Kagutsuchi. Where has the "boss" encounter been located for Ragna in Chrono Phantasma? A cauldron in the 5th Hierarchical City of Ibukido. I believe this more than simple coincidence. There's a connection there. This will probably have a lot to do with how he was "born" or made.

Also totally calling his Prime Field name is Epsilon or E-05.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ehecatl

[harmless kitten]

Yeah, Ragna's tattoo was noticed years ago. Note that the tattoo itself is different from Nu's and Noel's--their tattoos look carved into their skin, and have a stylized Murakumo symbol with their number in kanji. His tattoo is in black ink and is just No. 5 above a different symbol that appears every-fucking-where in BB. I used to think he was a prime field device, but now I subscribe to a different theory.

The boss fight probably takes place in Ibukido because that's where Ikaruga was doing research and experiments upon Lambda, Mu, and Nu before Take-Mikazuchi wiped it off the map. It being the 5th City is just a coincidence.

Technically his name would be ε-05 or Epsilon-5 if he was a Murakumo Unit. The lowercase letter is used (such as μ/Mu and v/Nu) instead of the uppercase. /pedantry

[Tong]

iirc every prime-field but, /\-11, Mu-12, v-13 were failures.

[Ehecatl]

Yeah, Ragna's tattoo was noticed years ago. Note that the tattoo itself is different from Nu's and Noel's--their tattoos look carved into their skin, and have a stylized Murakumo symbol with their number in kanji. His tattoo is in black ink and is just No. 5 above a different symbol that appears every-fucking-where in BB. I used to think he was a prime field device, but now I subscribe to a different theory.

The boss fight probably takes place in Ibukido because that's where Ikaruga was doing research and experiments upon Lambda, Mu, and Nu before Take-Mikazuchi wiped it off the map. It being the 5th City is just a coincidence.

Technically his name would be ε-05 or Epsilon-5 if he was a Murakumo Unit. The lowercase letter is used (such as μ/Mu and v/Nu) instead of the uppercase. /pedantry

Yes, his tattoo has been known for a while. I'm not claiming to be the first to notice a goddamn tattoo. And yes, it is different. But one must ask why he has it at all. If he's not a prime field, there's probably a story behind that. I seriously doubt it coincidence that this place where everything is coming to a head (for this game anyway) just so conveniently is the same city number from which he bears that mark. Again, likely a story there. But coincidence? Hardly.

You're really gonna bust my chaps over a capital E? I got lazy and decided not to use the fancier "ε" symbol. Sue me.

On that note, what theory do you subscribe to?

iirc every prime-field but, /\-11, Mu-12, v-13 were failures.

That depends on what your definition of failure means. Technically Lambda and Noel were considered failures. Ragna destroyed a couple before reaching Kagutsuchi as well, though I don't believe they ever were activated. Just because Hazama or certain scientist may have considered them failures for their purposes does not necessarily mean they're inoperable or unable to be activated. Lambda is the perfect example of that actually. She was thrown in a garbage heap.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ehecatl

[TPPR10]

Maybe the tattoo is just a Red Herring. They might had idea of Ragna being related to Murakumo Units (heck, original concepts had Blood-Scythe's blade to look identical to Murakumo's wing blades) but was probally dropped and they just left that in. BTW, can any one give me a good picture of that tattoo?

[Ehecatl]

Maybe the tattoo is just a Red Herring. They might had idea of Ragna being related to Murakumo Units (heck, original concepts had Blood-Scythe's blade to look identical to Murakumo's wing blades) but was probally dropped and they just left that in. BTW, can any one give me a good picture of that tattoo?

Maybe it is a Red Herring. Until I'm given reason to believe that though, I think it early to call bullshit.

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1349/13/1349134738719.jpg

It's not most easily visible and there are better pictures that enhance that mark on his chest, but there is an 05 there. If I find it, I guess I'll post it. Also this picture was made for Continuum Shift II. That's pretty recent; not concept art. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't believe I've ever seen an official open-shirt picture of Ragna before that one. And if there was one (which I'm not excluding, I may just have missed it after all), then if they really wanted to retcon it out, it's so hard to see anyway, they could just do it. I doubt people'd even really make a fuse.

EDIT: Found an enhanced image of that tattoo.

http://www.subeimagenes.com/img/ragna-numero-5-wtf-193509.jpg

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ehecatl

[harmless kitten]

http://imgur.com/AYPhYkT Here's the highest-res picture I have. I cropped it because the whole picture is way too big. All of the pictures of Ragna's collarbone are only from phone cards or other sources like the CD booklet. We never see him clearly as a child (and most of the pictures are obscured or of his back), and as an adolescent his turtleneck covers the the thing.

@Ehecatl: I meant my remark to be a small joke, hence the /pedantry comment. I didn't intend for it to come across as rude.

I just don't see Ibukido being especially related to Ragna's tattoo. Eh.

Also, those failures weren't separate Murakumo Units at all, but Nu's other base bodies. During the events of "that which is inherited," the NOL grabbed Nu's three base bodies. Ragna interrupted the tempering process of two of them, which is what his whole exchange about it being the third time is about. Given that the scientists speak of only 11-13, I think Murakumo Units 2-10 were not made by Sector Seven and were either failures or destroyed.

I think that Ragna, Jin, and Saya are the artificial children made with the Black Beast's DNA that the CTSMC talks about. They were intended to be straight up attempts at supersoldiers with high armagus synchronization and resistance to seithr. Ragna was a huge failure, but came out of it with great sync rate with the Azure Grimoire; Jin has a good resistance to seithr and high rates, but not as high as Saya; Saya had crazy high sync rates, but was fragile and makes a great host for whatever's possessing her.

They could be just prime field devices, I dunno. I don't have a lot of attachment to this theory, especially since there's, what, two lines to support it? The only that that's clear is that Ragna was artificially created. Maybe the prologue of the CT novel will shed some light on their origins; there's some really weird sequence with Celica and Ragna but google translate is probably just messing it up.

Edited January 19, 2013 by harmless kitten

[mAc Chaos]

designed to be the black beast's host amirite

[Surf]

Unless it really does mean something or Mori put that there just to raise more damn questions has yet to be seen. Doesnt help its in the same exact place as the other units symbols. His symbol looks alot older and primitive though. With all the subtle hints that hes an artificial human, it isnt impossible for him to be a Murakumo. We still have 0 clue on pretty much the most casts true origins.

[SkyBarrier101]

iirc every prime-field but, /\-11, Mu-12, v-13 were failures.

I wouldnt EXACTLY say Mu-12 was a failure, just Take-Mikazuchi interrupted her tempering and what was produced after was Noel. They others just assumed she was a failure. I personally think Lambda was created just for testing. Mu-12 is actually described as the perfect murakumo unit, Kusanagi.

[mAc Chaos]

In Relius' story mode in Extend he seems to imply that Mu is a failure after all, after he goes to see her in person.

[SkyBarrier101]

In Relius' story mode in Extend he seems to imply that Mu is a failure after all, after he goes to see her in person.

No, he says, and I quote, "Still incomplete afterall..." he didn't say or imply that she was a failure, just incomplete.

[Ehecatl]

@Ehecatl: I meant my remark to be a small joke, hence the /pedantry comment. I didn't intend for it to come across as rude.

Not to worry. :D I was figuring you were having some fun. Please, forgive me if I come off bluntly. You're speaking to a man who has mastered the skill of being both an asshole and an asshat all at the same time. I do mean well though... mostly.

I just don't see Ibukido being especially related to Ragna's tattoo. Eh.

I dunno. It just seemed convenient. We have nothing on him as to why Ibukido would ever be personally important for him for him to willingly get a tattoo of a 5. But I seriously do hope the tattoo is more than just some fashion statement and I believe it is. I believe there's something there. Maybe even something to do with Ibukido. Writers don't just... "forget" these things. Good ones don't anyway.

Also, those failures weren't separate Murakumo Units at all, but Nu's other base bodies. During the events of "that which is inherited," the NOL grabbed Nu's three base bodies. Ragna interrupted the tempering process of two of them, which is what his whole exchange about it being the third time is about. Given that the scientists speak of only 11-13, I think Murakumo Units 2-10 were not made by Sector Seven and were either failures or destroyed.

Perhaps not Murokumos exactly but Nu's other base bodies were still considered Prime fields right? Probably assigned some number even? I dunno, like Iota or Kappa or something?

I think that Ragna, Jin, and Saya are the artificial children made with the Black Beast's DNA that the CTSMC talks about. They were intended to be straight up attempts at supersoldiers with high armagus synchronization and resistance to seithr. Ragna was a huge failure, but came out of it with great sync rate with the Azure Grimoire; Jin has a good resistance to seithr and high rates, but not as high as Saya; Saya had crazy high sync rates, but was fragile and makes a great host for whatever's possessing her.

They could be just prime field devices, I dunno. I don't have a lot of attachment to this theory, especially since there's, what, two lines to support it? The only that that's clear is that Ragna was artificially created.

Interesting idea. But I would love to know more about how this is done. Also, Saya bothers me-- like everything about her. She's just one big quagmire wrapped in a conundrum. I mean, here we go down Ragna's memories and he remembers Saya as the sickly little kindly sister that he protected. She has blonde hair, sounds VERY much like Noel, and acts like Noel. We have Jin, who looks at Noel and hates her guts because she's so like Saya. We have Noel who has very specific memories and not just "feelings" in concerns with Ragna. She can black out and have a complete dream of him checking up on her and asking if her fever is down and telling her to rest because she needs to get better, and it all ends off with him telling her, "Sweet dreams, Saya."

Then we meet the so-called Saya, and she's this purple-haired looking girl that looks NOTHING like anything out of Ragna's memories, doesn't have her voice, doesn't have her eyes or face or anything really. And yet he calls her Saya. I'm left here scratching my head and wondering just who the hell she is. I'd like some kind of insight on that if anyone has it. My theory up until now has been that Noel basically has Saya's soul. It wouldn't be out of the question considering how much body-swapping souls do in this game, what with Terumi, Hakumen, Nu... Hell, a part of me even wants to believe Noel IS Saya, even physically, despite the game saying everything to the contrary.

[harmless kitten]

I don't think Lambda was meant to be a test unit, as the dialogue states that they "lost subject 11* to [their] own timidity.]

Relius certainly thinks she's a failure.

"I cannot believe that YOU are the basis for #12.

I thought you an utter failure. Apparently, I've much to learn."

Who knows if her tempering would've ever succeeded if Take-Mikazuchi didn't fire. Ragna doesn't even think she's a Murakumo Unit at first because the Azure Grimoire doesn't react to her, but at the time, she hasn't been tempered.

*They SAY 12 in the English version, but they're obviously talking about Lambda and they state 11 in the JP version. That was a major screwup.

[Ehecatl]

I don't think Lambda was meant to be a test unit, as the dialogue states that they "lost subject 11* to [their] own timidity.]

Relius certainly thinks she's a failure.

"I cannot believe that YOU are the basis for #12.

I thought you an utter failure. Apparently, I've much to learn."

Who knows if her tempering would've ever succeeded if Take-Mikazuchi didn't fire. Ragna doesn't even think she's a Murakumo Unit at first because the Azure Grimoire doesn't react to her, but at the time, she hasn't been tempered.

*They SAY 12 in the English version, but they're obviously talking about Lambda and they state 11 in the JP version. That was a major screwup.

Jesus Christ how many times have we been here, having to compare what the English localization department has translated something as verse what REALLY was said in the original Japanese?

[SkyBarrier101]

Since when did Ragna say that he didn't think she was murakumo unit? The Azure Grimoire probably didn't react to her because she wasn't tempted at the time. And Lambda was really just for testing because in the beginning of her story one of the scientists say she was made for the sole purpose of their research.

[harmless kitten]

@Ehecatl: Ah, I see. Forgive me, I'm bad at telling blunt teasing from ill will.

I don't think the bodies were other DIFFERENT prime field devices at all. They're Nu's base bodies, and thus Nu. Spares, essentially, so if one body is destroyed (as is the case), she has a backup. Much like the soulless bodies of Mu in Makoto's story mode. If they weren't Nu, then Nu wouldn't remember the previous times Ragna killed those bodies, and wouldn't be asking him if it was the third or fourth time.

I think Saya is being used as a host for something, and this something is what we know as the Imperator. She's described as a sacred vessel by Relius, and she seems completely unlike Ragna's memories of her. Nu experiences some of her memories as well, including a really messed up one in her story mode. Noel might have a part of Saya's soul, might not. I personally don't want her to have Saya's soul, but that's just me.

@SkyBarrier101: I believe it's in his CS story as well as in CTR. It's after Noel collapses during her rant at him.

They do say she was "tailor-made for our research," but he also says that "as long as no fatal errors occur, there is nothing to worry about." If she was a test unit, they likely still planned on tempering her. Deliberately ruining one of the few Murakumo Units they have left for the sake of research seems like a bad idea, and the older male scientist in CTR speaks as if they intended on using her, but took too long with experimenting and ruined her for tempering.

Edited January 19, 2013 by harmless kitten

[mAc Chaos]

I don't think Lambda was meant to be a test unit, as the dialogue states that they "lost subject 11* to [their] own timidity.]

Relius certainly thinks she's a failure.

"I cannot believe that YOU are the basis for #12.

I thought you an utter failure. Apparently, I've much to learn."

Who knows if her tempering would've ever succeeded if Take-Mikazuchi didn't fire. Ragna doesn't even think she's a Murakumo Unit at first because the Azure Grimoire doesn't react to her, but at the time, she hasn't been tempered.

*They SAY 12 in the English version, but they're obviously talking about Lambda and they state 11 in the JP version. That was a major screwup.

Yeah, Relius of course thought Noel was a failure BEFORE, but even AFTER he saw her as the full blown real deal Mu-12 Kusanagi he still thought there was something missing.

Incomplete and failure sound the same to me. What else could she be missing. Terumi got fooled well enough by it.

[SkyBarrier101]

Incomplete means not full or finished and/or not having the necessary or appropriate parts. Failure means lack of success, seems pretty different to me

[Ehecatl]

I don't think the bodies were other prime field devices at all. They're Nu's base bodies, and thus Nu. Spares, essentially, so if one body is destroyed (as is the case), she has a backup. If they weren't Nu, then Nu wouldn't remember the previous times Ragna killed those bodies, and wouldn't be asking him if it was the third or fourth time.

Are you so sure? This game does have a lot of body-hopping with souls. Nu even went into Lambda 11's body if you'll remember. She calls herself Nu then. And that's a different prime field. What's to say she couldn't have been in other prime fields before the 13th?

I think Saya is being used as a host for something, and this something is what we know as the Imperator. She's described as a sacred vessel by Relius, and she seems completely unlike Ragna's memories of her. Nu experiences some of her memories as well, including a really messed up one in her story mode. Noel might have a part of Saya's soul, might not. I personally don't want her to have Saya's soul, but that's just me.

Thing I'm trying to work around is if Saya was able to perform the task they wished, why even put her to "sleep" (I think this probably means deactivated), then go through a crap-ton of clones of her? What were they trying to compensate for that Saya could not do? I'm trying to justify Noel's role in this as well. "Saya" seems... threatened by her. She even says her existence "irks" her. As for Noel having Saya's soul, I dunno. That's my personal hope. The one thing I really hope doesn't happen is "Saya" changing sides. If all this turns out that the Imperator was just under Hazama's thumb but is really just Ragna's sweet little sister underneath after all-- where does that leave Noel? Because Saya of Ragna's memories is basically Noel, right down to the small details. So if Imperator Saya "comes around", we'll just have... two Noels running around with the same personality and everything? I don't want Noel to end up pushed to the background from this or made irrelevant and I don't want that for "Saya" or whatever she is either. I don't think that'll happen. At least I hope not.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ehecatl

[mAc Chaos]

Lambda IS Nu though. It wasn't like she just jumped in on her own. She was always Nu but just was being repressed.

[Ehecatl]

Lambda IS Nu though. It wasn't like she just jumped in on her own. She was always Nu but just was being repressed.

And what's to say any of the prior prime fields WEREN'T Nu as well if Lambda was?

[SkyBarrier101]

I thought the Imperator said that the existence of the cauldron irked her?

[Ehecatl]

I thought the Imperator said that the existence of the cauldron irked her?

She's talking about Noel. She was staring at her the whole time and says "YOUR existence, cauldron... irks me."

Which also makes me ask, why didn't she just kill them? Ragna's bleeding out of his shoulder. Noel is basically useless. Jin and Hakumen are a little beat up. Rachel just went through hell and probably isn't in top condition. Takamagahara isn't an issue anymore so no worry about a system reset. Hazama himself was perfectly confident he could kill them all there at once. It's understandable why Hazama didn't kill Ragna at CT's ending. Rachel was there (and Jubei if you go by the manga) and he wasn't sure he could beat them all himself. I guess we'll just have to wait until this game comes out but I wonder why Saya and team douchebag didn't kill the others.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Ehecatl

[SkyBarrier101]

But why the heck did she add the cauldron as well? ...That's a new way to say 'I hate you.'