[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[DerQ]

I know Amane could have gotten a unblockable Gekiren in this scenario, but that barrier depletion setup into gratuitous chip damage was godlike http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBhiIuZhmG8&feature=youtu.be&t=9m6s.

[DerQ]

So I just learned today that there's Anime Expo in Los Angeles (4th - 7th july) that will feature BBCP. Is anyone attending willing to test stuff. Even if no one from this forum is attending, if there's a list of stuff to test or check quickly, we can always ask outside of this forum those going if anyone would be willing.

[STenSatsu]

I can almost guarantee that somebody will be attending given that it's like the second biggest anime con in the US lol. You might just want to also ask in the CP General thread as well. Hell, StayFree will probably be sitting at the booth for Aksys like at E3.

[Zeromus_X]

Anyone know what happened here? Looks like Amane's jB went right through Itsuu. Or did the Litchi player just let go of the guard point?

[STenSatsu]

J.B hits multiple times and iirc Itsuu only eats one hit.

[DerQ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can see Litchi using B followup which loses the guardpoint. Yay for multi-hitting moves.

[TD]

J.B hits multiple times and iirc Itsuu only eats one hit.

Itsuu eats multiple non-low hits provided its not held too long or followups are not done as stated.

[STenSatsu]

Man, has been too long since I played Litchi lol. Must have done the followup then.

[DerQ]

I was thinking about something j.6D related. According to frame data, this move generates more blockstun of all his air normals and is the most damaging drill normal if you ignore 6D. This also means more chip damage. j.6D also leaves you floating at current height while active. On level 3, blockstun - recovery leaves you at + 1. If you use j.B > j.6D (As close as possible to the ground), wouldn't you ignore part of the recovery as you would land before recovery is over? To put this into perspective, if you were to do jB > land > 2A > 5B > 5D (level 3 and held all the way), you would get 2.2k. If you do j.B > j.6D (held all the way, level 3 drill), you would get 2.7k and would most likely be at a slightly better frame advantage than grounded 5D as you ignore part of your recovery. The only thing is that j.B > j.6D isn't gapless (2 frames)

Is there anything out of what I said that doesn't add up, I feel I'm missing something regarding this. When's october ;_;

[STenSatsu]

Since I don't think I've ever seen it, there is probably something fundamental that cause it to not work. Perhaps it comes out to slow to be used at a height that allows it to hit after j.b or something like that.

[DerQ]

The thing is that some combo routes work do imply going from j.B to j.6D at a very low height. I'd be surprised if this wouldn't hit standing opponents.

[STenSatsu]

Hmm, fair enough. The problem may be then that if they crouch to anticipate your landing since you would be unable to chain into j.a at that point, they get a full punish on a whiffed j.6d or something. Will probably be hilarious on Tager though, unless they are mashing spin super.

[DerQ]

I even doubt it whiffs on crouching or else the hitbox has to be really thin. Maybe won't work on somecharacters. Too bad this is all speculation D:

[Diveman]

I've got a question regarding Gekiren. If the opp is barrier blocking a drill in the air, can they still be hit by Gekiren? if so, then it means that Gekiren will always hit people if they are in range no matter how are they blocking?

[DerQ]

Available footage seems to prove this point (drill still active during grab, blockstun therefore still in effect) and since you can combo into it, I figured this acts as an unblockable attack rather than a grab. Though I can't tell if there's any more specific info regarding this scenario without training mode. I've seen it a few times and that's enough for me to take it for granted.

[Lich]

It's not actually a command grab, it's an unblockable strike throw. I remember watching a match where Amane grabbed someone out of the air from the drill because they tried to jump out but got caught in the air blocking. It works like Anji's command grab in the sense that he can grab you out of butterfly blockstun if you're in the air blocking.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Lich

[DerQ]

Managed to have a friend translate the gist of some info here.

Post 206 is Hina explaining the uses of 6A in blockstrings. It covers a lot of the opponent options. 2A > 6A is a combo and you can hitconfirm it without sacrifying too much damage if you do 2AA > 6A instead. It leads to different combos on standing that offer better rewards over something like "Basic string > 3C > Raibu". On block, 2A > 6A leaves 1 frame which catches opponents jumping out. From 6A on block, going into 5B/2B will also catch jumps, some reversals, mashing and corner backdashes. Reason why it catches reversals is due to 5B's non-existent hurtbox on the scarf. On block, 6A > j.D leaves a 1 frame gap and on hit, it's possible to combo. This means j.D on level 1 is active until you land on the ground. New combo routes from this. Lastly, 6A counter hit lifts the opponent which opens up different routes that are more damaging.

Here are some notations that were posted there

2A>6A>6B>Airdash forward>JB>6A>Gekiren>5B>5D (Corner)

2A>6A>6B>airdash>JB>J6D>2D>Gekiren (corner, 4k damage, level 3 drill)

2A>6A>JD>2A>5B>5D (this one might be on crouching only)

JB>2A>6A>JD>2A>6A>JD (this loop can only be done on crouching opponents, also curious to see if you absolutely need an N starter for it)

2A>6A>TK zettou>JA3>2A (Character specific)

The cool thing is that they give the exact same enders as every other combos you'd do on standing/crouching opponents but they probably give more meter, an increase in drill gauge, damage and corner carry potential.

One thing they did not mention is if it's possible to start these combos from either j.A (high) or 2B (low). Both of these could lead and combo into 6A in theory. This wouldn't make the high/low mixup game of Amane on par with the rest of the cast, but it would be more substantial that way. You could have a reactable high low mixup on every zettou approach.

THANK YOU TATARI FOR THE TRANSLATION

Edited July 23, 2013 by DerQ

[TD]

very nice info. cant wait to see how hina uses this.

[DerQ]

Thank you based Kamoihito

I asked him on twitter about 3C > 236D~B and he replied to me with some pretty interesting info. This setup does not beat rolls which he replies with "(Maybe) Amane gets a little frame advantage." As soon as I asked why "Maybe", he replied in japanese (most likely language barrier). This is not his exact words, more like an interpretation off a translation by Google, but he doesn't have the game at home to verify whether or not you can recover in time to meaty properly a roll attempt. A quick glance at the frame data seems to indicate you'd recover in time to attack after a roll. Roll is 30~ frames, delay in between emergency and time available to roll is 18F + 8F according to the wiki, since 3C can combo into Raibu the opponent is left in the air long enough to let Raibu startup (14 frames minimum), that makes for 70+ frames and the recovery for a ground drill is about that (6+64). That should leave with enough time to meaty or throw in the case of a forward roll.

Kamoihito mentionned this was used to beat emergency tech as they tech right into the ground drill.

Though I was curious what else could be made of this. If you assume the opponent knows rolling beats the drill setup, they can still be hit for at least 14 + 18 + 8 frames. 14 being the minimum float time on 3C, 8 frames being the tech window for emergency tech, 18 being the time at which they can't roll and are still in a (bluebeat) combo state. That's 40 frames total. Drill cannot combo into this sadly, but other attacks can! If you take a look at this right here, you are at the same range for 2C to hit and you can easily link it provided they did not use the emergency tech window. This could lead into 6C(1) > 236D~D > 5B(1) > 6D reset.

The only drawbacks I can think for this is that there is no or very little window for reaction to choose whether or not you commit to a ground drill or not. You'd have to react after the emergency tech window and this would leave the opponent with 18~ frames of hitstun and 2C's startup is 21 frames. Though since it's active for roughly 12 frames (4(4)4), it could also beat rolls and give instead a reset with a 2C starter. If they do emergency tech, you'll most likely be in recovery of 2C, but far enough to make it impossible/hard to punish appropriately by the time you can block. None of this I can test sadly, but it does sound really cool on paper.

Man, should really start making a list of stuff to test for when the console release is upon us.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Kurushii

[DerQ]

Kamoihito is too nice

Please note that everything below is from a poor google translate and some thinking/reflecting on my part. Don't take everything for granted, but it may very well help us watch and understand the decisions they do in matches. On and on still some progress even though there's a language barrier on both of us.

I wanted to know if 6D resets (6C(1)>5B(1)>6D) covered all teching options. Kamoihito updated me saying 6D will not cover a delayed backdash. Basically, the opponent can emergency tech and if they do, they will reset into 6D. If they try to roll forward, they will also get tagged. If they don't tech, well duh. But if they wait for the emergency window to disappear and then hold back and tech, they will get out. I asked what would cover back rolls then if this didn't do it. The two answers he gave me was that 236D~C (Hariken C followup) would cover the roll, but that you have to deal with the risk that he does any other option besides delayed back tech. Makes sense as you can react to whether or not Amane is throwing 6D out or using Hariken stance. Both having a startup time of 40+ frames... yeah kinda sucky.

Instead what he insisted on was to use corner carry by doing 5B(1) > 5C(1) > 236A > j.B (3) and ending in 236C (Raibu) and proceed to link this video as an example

Basically, having Raibu wallstick and teching time is enough to cover for 6D's startup. Since they're cornered, they can't roll without getting tagged by the drill. I asked him if it was risk free on most characters to which he replied "Some dash like attacks beat it, carnage scissors for example" which was pretty obvious to figure out, but confirmed that it covers regular tech options. So whether or not this is guaranteed depends on the matchup, but would be guaranteed on reversal-less characters.

Otherwise, if the only thing that beats this 6D reset is backroll, I think it's fairly safe to say that you could test whether or not a player knows about it in by trying it once. You could surrender Oki just to see if he knows how to delay his tech then roll back. If they roll back, you still have "some" time to charge your drill level a little before they even get to move, so even that I'd say would be safe.

EDIT: I'm not sure if I should update available info according to this. There's still a strong language barrier making all this info unclear even if it's something we didn't know in the first place

Edited August 19, 2013 by DerQ

[DerQ]

More questions were asked to Kamoihito, more answers were given

I asked what were the opponent's options on this setup. Implies using 5D air hit in corner to reset into Hariken. Basically, the idea would be you could get the proper spacing with 5D and the necessary time from both the float and the ground tech time to lay down a hariken safely.

It beats:

• Emergency tech, float time + emergency tech time is more than Hariken's startup
  
• No tech, they are in the hariken drill. They will most likely get hit in a bluebeat prorated combo
  
• Delayed back roll, since they are cornered, they'll get tagged by the drill
  
• Delayed front roll, will get tagged by the drill if spaced correctly. Kamoihito insisted on mentionning this detail
  
• Delayed Regular tech, same as emergency tech
  
  
  It loses to:
  
  • Wakeup mechanisms or reversals : Tager sledge, Rachel wind tech, Hakumen's drive, Carnage scissors and other options not listed here on the character. He couldn't mention everything, but Bang for instance can use his D to attempt a teleport.
    
  • Reversal Rapid Cancel. The hariken has a hurtbox and it will be destroyed if it is hit. With 50 meter, Ragna can Inferno Divider and rapid it because he hits the drill for instance. Afterwards he's free to dash at you.
    

  Since he mentioned it, I asked if the same could be done about 6D. Only Hariken has an active hurtbox that can be exploited that way. Resets into 6D directly will not be beat by Reversal Rapid Cancel. 6D cannot be destroyed apparently. This would make sense according to the hakumen 6D glitch. He would hit it and it wouldn't go away.

  Also I'm curious to see if you could slightly delay the hariken to beat no tech blue beat attempts. If they are indeed not teching, a slight delay will reset the damage proration and grant you a neat 2k~ reset with drill level 3 anyway.

  On another note, I was thinking of making a list of everything that needs to be tested at console launch. It can be edited by anyone so long as you try somewhat to keep organized. This will also help other people catch up with known stuff. If they ask something known, they'll get their answer right away.

  You can find and work on the list here.

[Kurushii]

Awesome, makes me wonder if you can zettou if Bang teleports and punish him.

[DerQ]

Awesome, makes me wonder if you can zettou if Bang teleports and punish him.

Plenty of time http://youtu.be/iRgbcC-sXIg?t=27s , There was a match (probably on nico) I saw a hariken drill freeze Bang in hitstop long enough for amane to jump at the range he would teleport and punish it with j.2C. Since it's a projectile, Amane is simply not affected by hitstop like Bang is.

[DerQ]

Bit of theory crafting I wished to share.

At one point I wondered if j.6D could be used to chip since it had the highest value for chip damage besides 6D. Rising j.6D catches people if they are standing. Sounds super cool, but in application, doesn't look as great. I'm still eager to test something like Zettou (236A) > j.B > j.6D and see if it has any potential or not.

While this isn't explicitly accomplishing something, I'm hype over this little thing right here. Unless there's more to it like faster landing or w/e else, this is just a clear visual cue to send to your opponent to either distract or be used as a certain signal. If they notice it, I feel they could either get distracted and be likely to not react to a grab for instance. From there, you can send the visual cue again and do something different. NT in the video landed and did 6B. If the opponent tries to tech, you get a fatal, if they OS into barrier, free TRM setup. They can hardly disrespect it as you are point blank in their face. Nonetheless, with the lack of high/low mixup, I'll gladly take anything that can distract and just screw with reactions a little.

Last but not least, had an idea that I've never seen used in a match. Midscreen, Amane can go out of his way to get a crossup in j.2B with air dash and/or command dashes. But you can't crossup in corner right? Though 2C vacuums, so I'm wondering if the same could be done in the corner using it to be able to crossup. It doesn't sound game changing, but corner crossups are not frequently available to most characters, so having one would still be interesting.

[Slaythe]

I feel like Amane has a lot in common with Jin, after watching a few videos.

So I could see the vacuum working, like jin's 5B in corner to cross up.