[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[TD]

Sounds like he really has to go out of his way for the corner crossup. First push himself back enough to 2c, zettou in, some form of pressure, and then zettou/airdash j2b...

Sounds like too much work IMO. There's at least four holes in that string for something to go wrong. It also takes too long, people might see it coming after it's done once to them IF they attempt to block. And then, you do all that and they block, and now he's squashed between a rock and a hard place with one zettou to work with. (If he chose command jump to crossup)

I guess having the option is good for that one time one-hitter-quitter but it probably should stick to mid screen/ just enough away from the corner for practicality'a sake. At least he has good side switching combos if it works.

[DerQ]

I feel like you could do 2C > Zettou > Airdash and that would just be enough to put you in that range. In terms of gaps, it's not adding multiple gaps, it's more like extending one. You'd have to add an airdash and j.2B's extra few frames of startups. Yes you can press a button, yes you can call it out and I would even agree that it's one-time trick. That's the charm I'd see in it. If it never happens and you choose to respect at that time, you will simply not know and not block it. It's not stable, but if it's there.

I feel like Amane has a lot in common with Jin, after watching a few videos.

Outside of the vacuum corner cross up, how would they be alike to each other? I more or less fail to see the common ground between them that you are seeing, but curious about it

[Eternal Blaze]

Yeah I'm not seeing the resemblance with Jin.

The cross up thing seems like it miiiight just work but its too risky as there'll be a huge gap there where they can smack you for your troubles. If it does work could be alright as a once in a while gimmick.

Question for the guys that have been following, does Amane looks like he has any matchups in his favor? any MUs lookin really bad?

I know Haku looks like its no walk in the park and Valk seems like it'll be nothing but a nightmare.

[DerQ]

At first I thought some matchups looked horrible, mostly characters that could rush you down like Tao/Valk/Rachel/Litchi, but generally, Amane can run long and extensive pressure on these very same characters due to their lack of reversals/defensive options. You can watch matches against Tao where once the Amane lays a finger on her, everything falls apart for her and ends up with drills in the face. It's really more about who can strive from momentum in a lot of matchups. Take a look at the recent Zero vs. Arukemi set on Jourdal's channel and it showcases that a lot, if Amane gets the first hit, he can win just with solid pressure and same goes for Rachel (Except she has mixups made to open you up, not extended pressure).

At neutral, your movement helps you minimize risk quite a lot, so I can hardly say there are matchups that feel limiting. Being able to jump that high with command hops/dashes, you can just stay out of danger easily. It doesn't necessarily forces the other player into a situation that is to his disadvantage, kind of like a stalemate. Also, having an array of fullscreen poke like his C moves is a very useful asset that can limit the opponent to do certain things they could do in other matchups.

The worst matchups or bad ones I'd say are when you can't rely on drill because the character has a particular answer to it. Rachel being able to wind tech blows up most reliable drill setups for instance. This is probably more me, but Litchi looks painful to play against (that pressure). I also feel like Relius will be quite a challenge. His defensive options are more evasive and Amane is better at dealing with defensive options with larger risk implied such as a DP. If you make leave a gap for your opponent to mash or try to call you out, he has to commit to something, Relius can just stay where he is, dodge and reset the game to neutral. On top of that, his puppet appears to me as a better tool to gain control of neutral than what Amane has for himself.

As for favorable matchups or situations, Tager would be the most obvious one. You set the pacing of this match more than any other. Plus at neutral, you can find situations to just use 6D and gain drill meter even if he has sledge. 6B is grab invincible frame 1 and you can airdash after and that makes Tager's life really sad. Zoners also seem to be slightly limited against Amane because you can call them out for a reduced risk with C pokes. If MU-12 wants to set steins, if Rachel tries to summon pumpkin, if V-13 throws the wrong sword, etc. These are all situations where you can get a counter hit with a C attack and start your offense without the same risk other characters have to face. You also pose a threat to them for using their moves due to it.

Someone asked Dora what was Amane's strength and his reply was the lack of an unplayable matchup. If it makes sense to you that the momentum plays a big part, as in who really lands the first meaningful hit leading to something else, then there's no matchup that would be a nightmare just like Dora said. I have to agree until I play the game

Edited October 18, 2013 by DerQ

[Skye]

There's a lvl 3 Drill 6b FC combo I would like to test. Anyone interested?

[DerQ]

I'm definitely interested and wondering why you wouldn't just post it and tease us like that :P

[Random Naoto]

Finally made it through most of the last ninety nine pages. Once we actually get our grubby mitts on the game, I'm going to try and stream quite a bit, so if any Amane people want to convene we can hang out and pretend we didn't pick this character for the reasons we picked this character.

[Eshi]

Yup this character is everything I've ever wanted. Hit confirming is pretty tough, but his movement is amazing and drills are so lol. I'm practicing combos into 6D and TKing j2B just right so Amane immediately lands instead of bounces. Sooo much fun to play!

[Eternal Blaze]

K am I the only one having issues getting gekiren out? i keep getting raibu instead and its pissing me off ~___~;

Also 6B has a lot less range than I expected, Idk why I thought he'd be flying in till he makes contact (like Athena's butt move in KoFXIII), instead he bounces off the air even if no one's there lol.

[DerQ]

To everyone posting and has the game.

Add me on skype (g1derq) if you want to join the amane chat. It's only me, hellfire and Kurushii at the current time, but it's a pretty useful resource to discuss some stuff quickly. I probably won't add you right away simply because I'll be at our venue since it has the game and I'm waiting for it to ship to have it at home (fuuuuuuuuuuuuck)

Should I make a new gameplay thread? Since we have the game on our hands, the content and discussion will be slightly different. Plus, a 100~ page thread is kind of intimidating. Just trying to gather thoughts on this.

K am I the only one having issues getting gekiren out? i keep getting raibu instead and its pissing me off ~___~;

If it happens that often, go in training and set up input display to make sure you get 6,2,3. At least that's the only input that's close another move's input

[Eshi]

K am I the only one having issues getting gekiren out? i keep getting raibu instead and its pissing me off ~___~;

YES. The input for raibu is extremely lenient for some reason, I have to consciously think about my inputs every time I want to use gekiren. I haven't had a problem like that in Blazblue before.

[Random Naoto]

Should I make a new gameplay thread? Since we have the game on our hands, the content and discussion will be slightly different.

I wouldn't be opposed.

[Skye]

I'm definitely interested and wondering why you wouldn't just post it and tease us like that :P

I have a history of having an unwelcome opinion, so I was on egg shells. But lol since the game is out now, I'll test it myself, I'll list the notations soon. Gotta do Arakune stuff atm.

YES. The input for raibu is extremely lenient for some reason, I have to consciously think about my inputs every time I want to use gekiren. I haven't had a problem like that in Blazblue before.

The buffering system definitely feels different. You literally have to input 623 with the stick/analog/dpad at 3.

[Eternal Blaze]

Yeah if you end the DP motion with 6 instead of 3 you'll get a fireball everytime, not liking this at all ~___~

[DerQ]

@skye worst case scenario i tell you your opinion was wrong and end it at that

Playing it at our venue. I cannot do 5C into 6C for shit lol. Raibu leniency wasnt as bad as i thought on my part.

[TD]

derq, are you doing any of you shenanigans that you were talking about? please let us know how that turns out.

also, doe zettou - ja work? l know its slow as hell, just want to confirm if it works.

[DerQ]

I wasn't really trying any of that stuff as we were playing arcade style best of 1 rotations on limited setups and therefore had no time alone in training. I was just trying to get some stability and run with that for now.

Some notes

-2B is da god to bait reversals. A properly spaced 2B can make stuff like Kagura's reversal whiff entirely. Could get it quite often if I tried to get the right spacing.

-Only one command hop per jump. If you want 2, you need to jump by using a command hop.

-If people don't know how to deal with the drill game, it's 100% free. Loose 6D resets for free, 5D fully held can build one entire level of drill. People will eventually figure it out, but as of now, it's unbelievably easy.

-5C will only hit 1 time on Kagura. When in hitstun, he just low profiles the second hit. That means no fullscreen CH 5C punish on his projectile.

-Zettou into j.A seems unlikely. I think I may have accidentally tried to go for it once or twice and dismissed it. Could still a 10-seconds check up in training, but I doubt it leads to anywhere tbh.

This character is fo fuuun

[Skye]

-Only one command hop per jump. If you want 2, you need to jump by using a command hop.

-5C will only hit 1 time on Kagura. When in hitstun, he just low profiles the second hit. That means no fullscreen CH 5C punish on his projectile.

This character is fo fuuun

To specify on these 3 points;

Zettou has a ground version and an air version, so if you want to do it twice, you have to be grounded. Super good for movement, because you retain your additional jumps and air dashes.

I've had no problem hitting Kagura with both hits of 5c on both ground hit or air hit, something worth researching.

And yes, Amane is crazy fun.

[DerQ]

Hmmm then maybe it is just counter hit, the way I would try to hit with it was to get a counter hit on his projectile. I hope I'm wrong because it was just so good against him. If you have to whiff punish with 2C for something stable, then you don't get silly stuff from that 50+ frames stagger

[Random Naoto]

also, doe zettou - ja work? l know its slow as hell, just want to confirm if it works.

It does on the downward portion of Zettou, but the spacing required to do it raw makes Zettou j. A on crouchers ~37 frames depending on the character. It's potentially not that bad if you do something like max distance 5B, zettou, and then you have the options of j. A, empty low, or j. D. That being said they leave blockstun quite a bit before those connect, so you might just 214a/b and try to bait something instead.

I just got my copy today and have been messing with some stuff, here's some of the frame data on doing crossups with zettou; everything is counted from the first frame of the zettou:

5B (any standing normal) zettou crossup j. B - 34 frames

j. 2B, zettou, crossup j. B - 28 frames

j. 2B, zettou, crossup j. D - 27 frames

IAD j. B, j. A zettou, crossup j. B - 29 frames

IAD j. B, j. A zettou, crossup j. D - 28 frames

j. A, zettou, crossup j. B - 26 frames

j. 2B, zettou, crossup Gosei - 24 frames

Most of it is relatively slow as mixup goes, but crossing up with J. D, Gosei, or j. 2B is really ambiguous, and j. D is kind of like a way to punish them for even blocking. For most of these, the opponent is out of blockstun for 11-15 frames when you're actually doing the crossing up, so be aware that characters with fast/highly invincible anti air options can beat you. The Gosei ones are the only ones that are really tight, there's like a few frames where they can move, but Gosei is also the least safe on block.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Random Naoto

[Julius Monroe]

Spacing seems rather difficult, having to be at the right range for his 5C and 2C. What are you guys doing to keep players off. 5B is really good for a regular B&B knock back combo and at max range 5C will connect

[Random Naoto]

Spacing seems rather difficult, having to be at the right range for his 5C and 2C. What are you guys doing to keep players off. 5B is really good for a regular B&B knock back combo and at max range 5C will connect

Having just come back from a really really long grind session, 5C and 2C just don't seem to be very good in general as neutral tools, which sucks because that's kind of why I wanted to play this character. If you're trying to create space after a blockstring or option select a pickup after 5B, they seem okay, but if you're just trying to Dhalsim shit out and throw out 5C/2C it doesn't work so well. The dead zones are really large, the way 5C tilts up makes it whiff on characters like Rachel and Platinum even when standing, and of the characters I played tonight, all of them but Relius could punish them on whiff from outside the hitbox, though 2C did work pretty well to go under some zoning attempts. 6C as a predictive anti-air seemed much more safe since from that range no one seemed to be able to get from the air to the ground to punish, and the fatal follow ups do good damage, though they can sometimes get pulled to the other side and 6A will whiff afterwards.

I played most of my matches against Azrael; 5C/2C are really bad in neutral in this match-up, both get blown up hard by his dash punch, which is really fast, and even if you manage to block it he's now in and has frame advantage, which means you're going to eat like 20 frame 3 way mixup that does 4k every time. He can also just dash around to avoid them entirely.

I want to spend some time in training mode and try to find some alternate routes to 6D other than the Gosei(1) RC route, since having high 2/low 3 drill seemed super important in winning with this character.

[Eshi]

I really like 2C, cancel into zettou and it hit confirms into jB. Tiger knee jC is also really nice. 6A is absolutely amazing AA.

[Eshi]

I want to spend some time in training mode and try to find some alternate routes to 6D other than the Gosei(1) RC route, since having high 2/low 3 drill seemed super important in winning with this character.

try this tech trap, it is amazing:

(air juggle) 5B > 5C> 6C (1 hit) > 236DD > 2B > 5B > 5C > 6C (1 hit) > 236DD > 5B > 6D

They tech after the 5B and it sends them perfectly into 6D. Not sure if escapable. If they don't tech them it combos.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Eshi

[DerQ]

Little mistake you made, the end is 5B > 6D, not 5D

All of these are not tested and more or less taken for granted from tutorial combo videos, match videos and frame data. It's a guideline, but don't take everything under here for 100% granted truth as they were found before we got the game.

I asked Kamoihito back then on twitter but havn't tested it myself and took it for granted. This setup beats people who hold the button to tech (Emergency tech), if you delay your tech to get access to a back roll, it should beat it. Nonetheless, if they back roll, you still get to hold 6D for a little while longer before they wakeup and since they're far away, they're not really beating entirely the setup, just taking the lesser of two evils.

A must-have drill setup is 236C Wallstick into 6D. Whenever you are not in the corner but in distance for raibu to wallstick, you are also in distance for 6D. The idea here is that wallstick time + ground tech time covers startup for 6D. Since they are cornered, they cannot roll. Some characters can escape it such as Rachel wakeup wind, but that list is still to test.

If you are too close for Raibu wallstick into 6D, you can do 5B > 5D(N) > 236D~A after said wallstick. Same idea, 5D will lift the opponent high enough to let them land, then tech and that covers you placing a drill. The tricky part is that you need to place that drill at the sweet spot. This range implies A drill being blocked and to cover rolls and also implies being able to followup into 6D as well. A little tip, it'll be offscreen when you do it.

5D counterhit can combo into Hariken which in turns combos into 6D.

5C counterhit (Second hit) can combo into it

3C counter hit can combo into hariken drill

2C's spin can reset into 6D.

There's probably a little more than that and they should be found in the pressure thread. I vaguely posted all the resets or ways you could attempt going into it there under the drill management section.