[CP] Amane Nishiki Gameplay Discussion

[Cynthetik]

Someone had asked me to make a post regarding stance cancelling and the options it gives to Amane's game. Hariken Stance Cancel (236D~D) is a powerful tool that Amane can use to create drill set ups, keep pressure going, and bait out reversals.

 

The most obvious and basic use for stance canceling is using it mid combo to set up drill set ups. Pretty straight forward, do 236D~D after the first hit of 6C, follow up with either 5B > 6D or 5B > 236D~B > 6D. These set ups change the timing of of drill oki just slightly enough and can force the opponent to respect drill setups a little more. 236D~B can be change to either 236D~A/C to catch any roll attempts.

 

Hariken Stance canceling is a very strong tool for Amane's pressure game. Stance canceling normals like can help Amane "break up" his pressure strings and allows him to catch his opponents pressing buttons giving him potential counter hits. Throwing in 3C > 236D~D during a pressure string will make 3C safe, same goes with stance canceling 5B. (A well spaced 3C/5B > 236D~D can even prevent 3C from being grabbed by Hakumen's counters). Amane can follow up the stance cancel with either another 3C to get a potential CH 3C for a nice combo or a 5B to push the opponent back and allow for fabhop pressure. 5B > 236D~D, as stated before, is great for pushing the opponent out and gives Amane breathing room to either start pressure of his own again or start a zoning game. If you go for a meaty 2C after Raibu, 2C > 236D~D can be useful to change the timing on a 5C or Gekiren follow up to catch people who want to jump out/at Amane. You can also just wait for the opponent to do something and react accordingly if you decide to stance cancel a meaty 2C. (6A/5B/3C to stop an opponent's attempt to get in).

 

Raw 236D~D can be very useful for baiting out an opponents reversal or super because Hariken stance can be canceled so fast. When you have the opponent cornered and they have a reversal or are sitting on 50 meter for a reversal super, you can bait them out by entering Hariken stance and waiting for a short moment before canceling. Let your opponent see the stance and trick them into thinking you either messed up or that you are going for a drill set up, cancel and block the reversal. This can can also be used midscreen against certain characters that can reversal super out of drill set ups (i.e. Ragna, Terumi, etc).

[Kirnupiima]

^Thank you!

[Kiba]

Amane can keep Valk out pretty easily when he is wolf form as long as he plays smart since Valk cannot block and Amane has full screen normals. j.B is pretty hard for him to deal with cause it has farther range than w[5B] and usually beats it clean. 6A is also a really good AA for dealing with Valk. At neutral, Amane has the upper hand.

 

I'm not really in agreement that it can be pretty easy to keep out Valk. This same statement holds true for both Nu and Rachel 'as long as they play smart' (Rachel being the hardest to get around). j.B works well if Valk is running along on the ground, it's nothing wj.66D can't get around, but this is just part of it. He can't block, fair enough, but Valk makes up for that with a number of great movement options. You whiff an attack in neutral, Valk is gonna getcha regardless of whether he caught you on block or hit, and it could be game there because the only option you have against Valk pressure is with 50 heat. When Amane is on the offense, despite having bad defense, it will take a while to open up the player because you have to be gimmicky.

 

You have an anti air. That's cool, Valk can bait anti airs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not assuming the Valk player will do everything right in this matchup but your certainly underestimating his vast options, which may tell me you don't play any good Valks.

 

You've gotta look at it from all angles. I haven't experienced anything difficult to deal with in this matchup. I'm kinda surprised at the approach taken at this matchup discussion. I'm not here to correct anything though, because I cba, just shedding some light.

[EXonestar]

Amane can keep Valk out pretty easily when he is wolf form as long as he plays smart since Valk cannot block and Amane has full screen normals. j.B is pretty hard for him to deal with cause it has farther range than w[5B] and usually beats it clean. 6A is also a really good AA for dealing with Valk. At neutral, Amane has the upper hand.

You make Valk's wolf mode sound like a disadvantage just because he can't block. He doesn't really need to block because of his Wolf 4D/ 7D and he's the only character in the game able to dance dash (basically move forward and backwards on the ground like a Smash character ) making his forte simply . running around waiting for you to commit to a move for him to act upon it.

 

 He plays a lot like a permanent staffed litchi with a fabhop

 

 

Why permanently staffed?

[DerQ]

Out of curiosity from the WOLFBOYZ that posted. A lot of my local scene players have a very nice way of summing up how to play against Valk that I agree with and would like to see if more valk player than our only one would also agree to this. Something along the lines of "A lot of guessing about having an active hitbox in front of you at the right timing". It's simplistic, but goes along the lines of what you said: "Valk can bait AA". If you commit to the stuff you react, Valk can beat it. 

 

Without going in into "If you play smart", Amane has normals with recovery and startup longer than average. He does tend to have more active frames, but I don't think it's enough to make up for it. If you agree to the idea of reacting as risky, than any commitment you do is higher and if you fail, it leaves even more time for Valk to get in. Like Kiba said, if he gets one chance to hit or make Amane block you cannot realistically argue that Amane stands a fair chance. 

 

The two things I'll say in favor of the matchup is that Amane's movement can create a lot of stalemate in neutral. It's not enough to reliably overcome Valk's neutral, but it's also enough to prevent being overwhelmed and having to stand your ground. It helps against Valk pinning Amane down, but since he doesn't win neutral from it, it's not really in favor of one over the other though. The other one is what Eshi pointed is that drill setups are more /guaranteed/ against him. You still need a combo leading to corner for it to happen.

 

Maybe if Amane gained more from pressure and knockdowns, it'd be pretty fair overall. I don't think Valk wins neutral free, but I think he's better than Amane in that regards. But even if you hit him, not all knockdowns are meaningful while a lot more of Valk's stuff will be. 1.1 will be interesting in that regards, because knockdowns and Amane's single player game is upped in a few ways

[Kiba]

I agree with everything you've said.

[Eshi]

the main reason I pointed out his lack of drill escapes is because of the crush trigger setup. Valk has to get in the air a lot since he can't stay human form and ground wolf gets tagged by jB too easily. In which case, a correct read in neutral (6A, CH jB, 5C) from Amane can very likely confirm into his crush trigger setup and then he'll tear Valk apart. As you say, Amane doesn't win in neutral alone so I think it's a huge component of the match-up.

I've been revamping my playstyle in general since Final Round to rely a lot more on setting up inescapable 6D's. Amane's neutral just doesn't cut it until he gets buffed in the patch. 

[EXonestar]

Out of curiosity from the WOLFBOYZ that posted. A lot of my local scene players have a very nice way of summing up how to play against Valk that I agree with and would like to see if more valk player than our only one would also agree to this. Something along the lines of "A lot of guessing about having an active hitbox in front of you at the right timing". It's simplistic, but goes along the lines of what you said: "Valk can bait AA". If you commit to the stuff you react, Valk can beat it. 

 

Without going in into "If you play smart", Amane has normals with recovery and startup longer than average. He does tend to have more active frames, but I don't think it's enough to make up for it. If you agree to the idea of reacting as risky, than any commitment you do is higher and if you fail, it leaves even more time for Valk to get in. Like Kiba said, if he gets one chance to hit or make Amane block you cannot realistically argue that Amane stands a fair chance. 

 

The two things I'll say in favor of the matchup is that Amane's movement can create a lot of stalemate in neutral. It's not enough to reliably overcome Valk's neutral, but it's also enough to prevent being overwhelmed and having to stand your ground. It helps against Valk pinning Amane down, but since he doesn't win neutral from it, it's not really in favor of one over the other though. The other one is what Eshi pointed is that drill setups are more /guaranteed/ against him. You still need a combo leading to corner for it to happen.

 

Maybe if Amane gained more from pressure and knockdowns, it'd be pretty fair overall. I don't think Valk wins neutral free, but I think he's better than Amane in that regards. But even if you hit him, not all knockdowns are meaningful while a lot more of Valk's stuff will be. 1.1 will be interesting in that regards, because knockdowns and Amane's single player game is upped in a few ways

Yeah I agree with this.

[DerQ]

the main reason I pointed out his lack of drill escapes is because of the crush trigger setup. Valk has to get in the air a lot since he can't stay human form and ground wolf gets tagged by jB too easily. In which case, a correct read in neutral (6A, CH jB, 5C) from Amane can very likely confirm into his crush trigger setup and then he'll tear Valk apart. As you say, Amane doesn't win in neutral alone so I think it's a huge component of the match-up.

I've been revamping my playstyle in general since Final Round to rely a lot more on setting up inescapable 6D's. Amane's neutral just doesn't cut it until he gets buffed in the patch. 

 

Even if 6D is guaranteed anywhere on the screen for 25 meter which I didn't think of initially, Having drill level 3 against someone midscreen doesn't give rewards that are set in stone unlike getting it in the corner. If that character was Tager, Kagura, Hakumen in regards to their movement, it would be a lot more meaningful. Sadly, Valk has good enough of movement and life to sustain what you'll get midscreen against him. If you do get the corner and drill, i'll argue anyday the match turns in favor of Amane as options become limited for the other guy.

 

So, Valk has arguably better neutral and rewards that are reliably better for winning neutral. I don't know from here how it can be argued that it's 5-5. Maybe in 1.1

 

Btw, I want to know how much is implied in that last statement. Does it suddenly makes the cut in 1.1? Just in this matchup? His biggest buffs I found to be not in the neutral department.

[Eshi]

Even if 6D is guaranteed anywhere on the screen for 25 meter which I didn't think of initially, Having drill level 3 against someone midscreen doesn't give rewards that are set in stone unlike getting it in the corner. If that character was Tager, Kagura, Hakumen in regards to their movement, it would be a lot more meaningful. Sadly, Valk has good enough of movement and life to sustain what you'll get midscreen against him. If you do get the corner and drill, i'll argue anyday the match turns in favor of Amane as options become limited for the other guy.

 

So, Valk has arguably better neutral and rewards that are reliably better for winning neutral. I don't know from here how it can be argued that it's 5-5. Maybe in 1.1

 

Btw, I want to know how much is implied in that last statement. Does it suddenly makes the cut in 1.1? Just in this matchup? His biggest buffs I found to be not in the neutral department.

negative penalty resistance so I don't get it after 2 seconds of running away like Amane has to, 5C less recovery and Hariken vs. other zoners. Didn't mean specifically against valk, that will be easier because he has to go human form more often. I know *logically* it's not an even match-up pre-patch but I really just don't have any fear of valk in this game. I've never once felt like I lost because it's an uphill battle, I always feel outplayed.

[DerQ]

Fiddled with a thing Jiro did more than once in recent videos. When you have a lot of untech (Includes same attack combo Gekiren) in the corner. 2B > Reset 6B is pretty damn fun. While 6B is not air unblockable and I doubt that changed in 1.1, opponent has to be blocking while they tech if they do so. Remember that air tech gekiren / no tech j.2B reset thingy Eshi posted a little while ago? More or less the same fashion, but from anything that goes into double Gekiren. Loops in itself from 6B starter. Also the freedom to cross behind the opponent if you want to go into drill super (Goukai)

 

It's not as good as having an air unblockable, but it's a lot less of a commitment in the first place. If you blue beat into 6B or they get out successfully, you're pretty safe for doing it. 

[Eshi]

I'll test out 6B reset after double gekiren this friday and see how much millage I can get out of it. It's definitely a much safer commitment than Gekiren. 

Unrelatedly, I have some updates to my personal match-up chart. Hopefully it will please Kiba this time.

 

6-4: BU, CA, TG, KA

5-5: AR, AZ, IZ, HA, MA, MU, NO, NU, PL, RG, RE, TE, TS

4-6: BA, HK, HZ, JI, LI, RC, VA

3-7: TK, KO

 

Valkenhyn: It only makes sense. I have a much easier time with Valk than ever before, but it's a pretty drastic overstatement of Amane's options to say it's even.

Hakumen: I'll update that match-up thread with my thoughts. I've put /a lot/ of effort into understanding it and I've figured out an optimal approach that makes it way more tolerable.

Taokaka: Kind of dumb of me to not put her here. I 100% believe she's our worst (pre-koko) match-up.

[DerQ]

Try the gekiren reset, they delayed tech, bluebeat gekiren, They assume it's safe and tech, 2b > 6B.

 

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Eshi]

Try the gekiren reset, they delayed tech, bluebeat gekiren, They assume it's safe and tech, 2b > 6B.

 

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

That... that's fucking brilliant.

[Errol]

I'll test out 6B reset after double gekiren this friday and see how much millage I can get out of it. It's definitely a much safer commitment than Gekiren. 

Unrelatedly, I have some updates to my personal match-up chart. Hopefully it will please Kiba this time.

 

6-4: BU, CA, TG, KA

5-5: AR, AZ, IZ, HA, MA, MU, NO, NU, PL, RG, RE, TE, TS

4-6: BA, HK, HZ, JI, LI, RC, VA

3-7: TK, KO

 

Valkenhyn: It only makes sense. I have a much easier time with Valk than ever before, but it's a pretty drastic overstatement of Amane's options to say it's even.

Hakumen: I'll update that match-up thread with my thoughts. I've put /a lot/ of effort into understanding it and I've figured out an optimal approach that makes it way more tolerable.

Taokaka: Kind of dumb of me to not put her here. I 100% believe she's our worst (pre-koko) match-up.

 

 

Even with a terrible character like Makoto? Would you like to explain yourself, Eshi? /jokes

 

There are no chars you'd split out into 5.5 or 4.5?

[DerQ]

tbh, you watch Makoto vs. Amane vids and Makoto isn't outclassed at all. Higher commitment normals vs. Fast movement makes it harder to stand your ground

[Eshi]

tbh, you watch Makoto vs. Amane vids and Makoto isn't outclassed at all. Higher commitment normals vs. Fast movement makes it harder to stand your ground

agreed. any character with a fast run, even an ass one like Terumi, can give Amane problems.

 

I prefer whole numbers for rating match-ups. I don't think .5 affects win rate enough to put much thought into.

[DerQ]

I just ran a bit more tests on the 6B gimmick I hadn't thought of during the fiddling yesterday.

 

If they

Forward tech or back tech in the air (right away) : They're out, but you should be able to block anything coming at you or move out. Forward tech lets them above you, but to put it in perspective. I was doing Gosei or j.2C on reaction to teching and set my recorded sequence to block after 6B. He blocked it all. They tech real high in the air too. Vulnerable to j.2B oki since they'll roll after Gekiren.

Delay tech : They can still tech in the air after bluebeat 6B, but 6B launches so far horizontally that even when holding forward and teching, they stay glued to the wall and don't move an inch. j.6C/j.C should catch them jumping or where they are. While you fabhop in, they're landing or trying to get away. No anti-air from that approach for them

It makes abstraction of their wakeup reversals (Looking at you Hakumen, Jin, Kagura and Tsubaki) for the most part too. It's really odd oki, but 6B oki's reward/risk ratio is interesting. Especially since you don't have to deal with instant bursts or the execution requirement for j.2B oki

last little edit, they have to guess more than once even if they succeed. So that's godlike.

Lol, edit because info comes as I think more and more about this. Doesn't work on all characters, but if you can hit with 5B after Gekiren and they chose to tech, they'll be way less high in the air. Quick test for 5B > 6B > forward tech with Ragna. Amane can't block if Ragna mashes j.A right away. j.B and j.C both whiff if he doesn't jump or move after teching.

[Eshi]

Stealth patch to 1.1 last night nerfed Amane's OD bug that lets him deal 7k damage with CH 5C > ODC > 6D. The dream is fucking dead, RIP in peace.

[STenSatsu]

That was a bug? Even in 1.0 I thought you could do that for like 5k or something at 100% life.

[Eshi]

That was a bug? Even in 1.0 I thought you could do that for like 5k or something at 100% life.

Nope, drive retaining slowed drill gain after overdrive ended didn't exist prepatch. I thought they added it intentionally in 1.1 but I guess not.

[DerQ]

This corner air throw is akward as fuck

[Eshi]

I'm not super enthusiastic about the changes to Amane. Hariken charge time helps certain match-ups greatly but overall he's the same as before. He's at least more viable because quite a few of his shit match-ups got equalized.

[Narroo]

I might be a bit late to the party, but I just realized that Amane can one-shot a blocking Nu.  Sure, you need a level 3 drill, overdrive, and 100 heat, AND the opponent's barrier gauge needs to be empty but by god can he do it.  If nothing else, the change to his stand should make it much easier to charge the gauge against her.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I'm not super enthusiastic about the changes to Amane. Hariken charge time helps certain match-ups greatly but overall he's the same as before. He's at least more viable because quite a few of his shit match-ups got equalized.

 

This is basically the 1.1 patch in a nutshell. Most weak characters only received minor if any buffs, but the strong characters got some hella big nerfs lol