[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[Yazumatto]

I know about the Brackhawku Stingah quote but the other one just sounds more badass. It's awesome to say too. I just don't know exactly what he says.

We should rectify this and watch some more Azrael videos to figure it out.

[Putin]

"Sono... me wo? -something- oshiete yaru, saikyou no bouryoku wo"

Something along the lines of "I'll show you the best kind of violence", I'm not into moon though so take it with a grain of salt.

BURAKU HOOKU SUTINGAH sounds better and more brutal imo

[YukiBlue]

He should just reel backwards and go..

GOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMIGOMI *Actual punch* KUUUUUZZZZUUUUUUUU

[BladeOfJustice7]

I personally like it more when he hits a weak point "OROKA MONO DA!". Nothing like Azrael calling you a dumbass for letting him hit the weak point he placed on you. Especially during OD combos and you do something like 5d>6d>*something*>jd>valiant rush. But BHS looks so much more badass when he's reeling it up during OD and he starts glowing.

Not to mention is OD quote when he says let's have more fun/isn't this fun, it just looks like he's getting carried away in his fight against you.

[SoWL]

The sound of a weak spot hit > every single line of Azrael's dialogue.

[AMB Bakery]

So yeah the quote is "その身を持って教えてやろ。。。最強の暴力を！" which is (literally) "I'll show you what this body carries: the strongest violence!"

After watching Senchou be his usual self and troll with neutral guard point, I kind of realized that, as long as you're in range and have the corresponding weakpoint, just due to the auto-seeking and huge hitstun of either hornet or valiant you get a guaranteed huge combo (unless they have burst of course, which Suuya did). I mean, of course just doing guard-point in neutral is ill-advised just because of how insanely punishable both moves are not to mention you are stuck there so they can just double jump or throw depending on what they activate the guardpoint with or how close they are. Concerning gatlings, that's all just dependent on frame data, which makes me wonder if the start-up of either valiant or hornet have two parts (pre- and post-charge?). Speculation aside, I think it'd be semi-useful to learn optimal combos off hitting either of those moves raw.

I'd rather not mention it, especially since this makes me a huge hypocrite, but we should probably stop the Azrael circle-jerk for the sake of keeping the thread gameplay related (and no, discussing the visual or audio effects on moves [no matter how beautifully done they are] doesn't count as gameplay discussion as it's ever-so-tangential). You know what the mods would say if they saw this. You know better, so just contain yourselves.... 4 months kyaaa~

[Starlight777]

Well if I end up not getting the Terumi pre-order code I know I'm definitely going to give Azrael a try. He looks too fun for me to just ignore him.

[YukiBlue]

Ever since I saw the reveal I was certain this guy was gonna be the boss. Initially I was dissapointed in his drive, but I've come to like it a fair bit and realise how strong it can be, especially with unblockable gimmicks. His damage, movement and style are unmatched in the series for me. Boss man.

And man DL is pretty rough man, talking about our characters VO cannot possibly be against any rule...Right?

[zeth07]

I'd rather not mention it, especially since this makes me a huge hypocrite, but we should probably stop the Azrael circle-jerk for the sake of keeping the thread gameplay related (and no, discussing the visual or audio effects on moves [no matter how beautifully done they are] doesn't count as gameplay discussion as it's ever-so-tangential). You know what the mods would say if they saw this. You know better, so just contain yourselves.... 4 months kyaaa~

I've been reading it all, I just didn't say anything because I didn't want to stifle the actual Azrael discussion thread for the sake of people thinking as soon as they say something they get "yelled at" and avoid the thread entirely after that. Let's just say this discussion is borderline off-topic and not to my liking or the intended purpose of this thread.

[BladeOfJustice7]

I've been reading it all, I just didn't say anything because I didn't want to stifle the actual Azrael discussion thread for the sake of people thinking as soon as they say something they get "yelled at" and avoid the thread entirely after that. Let's just say this discussion is borderline off-topic and not to my liking or the intended purpose of this thread.

This is fair, looks like we'll need an off-topic thread when the game finally drops then huh?

Back on topic: I've never really watched senchou, but everytime someone mentions him it's something about him being a based/trolling god with Azrael. I must investigate him.

Also why don't we see Azrael players use his OD much for wins? Is it because they're more likely to need to burst to get out of bad situations?

[YukiBlue]

Alright. Let's have a heated debate about a character we can't play in a game that isn't even out yet....Kappa.

His OD seems unnecessary from what I've seen. It serves mainly to bolster his damage, but Y'know...It's already pretty damn high. Much more useful to keep it as a defensive tool since his options under pressure are fairly limited, though he is by no means helpless. His backdash is ridiculous

[zeth07]

This is fair, looks like we'll need an off-topic thread when the game finally drops then huh?

Back on topic: I've never really watched senchou, but everytime someone mentions him it's something about him being a based/trolling god with Azrael. I must investigate him.

Also why don't we see Azrael players use his OD much for wins? Is it because they're more likely to need to burst to get out of bad situations?

I'm pretty sure the super mods / admins have been wanting to go away from "off-topic" threads in the characters forums, and they have suggested just making a Group for it. So as I typed this I went ahead and did just that: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/group.php?groupid=106

So there won't be an "off-topic" Azrael thread here. Now that I've made the group please continue this voice clip discussion there if you would like. I'll add a link to the group into the other threads so more people will see it and hopefully use it.

I personally find them (edit: the off-topic threads) unnecessary because anything Azrael Gameplay related should be discussed here, and anything Azrael Story related goes into the story thread, so there's something for everyone. Which is exactly how it is now or at least how I've handled things (not that there have really been things to handle anyway).

Discussing voice clips is some weird in-between topic, which is why I haven't said anything about the current discussion, and all I'll say is don't get carried away with it. There doesn't need to be pages of posts about voice clips in a gameplay thread. So yea, use the Azrael Group for this discussion if you guys want to continue it.

Edited June 27, 2013 by zeth07

[Lucalibur]

I mentioned a few weeks ago that the possibility of Azrael looping linked 5A>5B>5BBs was possible in theory given the frame data listed in the mook. However, after watching a match where a Azrael DID linked 5A from 5BB I was sadly surprised to find out something not listed in the mook: 5BB has repeat proration. I don't know how heavy it is, but that really ruins a lot of possibilities I had in mind for some funky albeit impractical mid-screen combos and\or loops.

http://youtu.be/vT7FTgCRVWc?t=56m34s

If youtube feels like being a jerk, it is at the 56 minutes and 32 seconds mark. I don't know how useful linking 5A from 5BB more than once would have been, but its there.

[AMB Bakery]

Eh, I guess that's fine. I mean, given that we already had a video with crazy combo madness (and likely more to come) and considering how heavily prorated 5A>5B>5BB loops would be anyway, it's not much of a loss. I'm a little more sad that the move probably can't be used for sweet SMP resets like 2C or Hornet since it grounds on air hit. Makes for a good ender I guess? It's got less recovery than his D moves...

[zeth07]

That's interesting that it has SMP. I don't think it would've been practical to do any "loops" of it anyway, but he still got a proper BnB from hit-confirming it so that's good at least.

[Lucalibur]

Yeah, I doubt looping it would be practical. It was more of a 'funny' thing in my head than anything, but oh well. Its still good to confirm that you CAN link 5A after 5BB, which means my other theory that on a croucher you should be able to link 5B instead and go into a crouching combo rather than rekkas is possible. 5BB is really one of those moves with a lot of potential I don't see players doing anything with.

[YukiBlue]

If it didn't have SMP I can imagine some pretty hilarious crouching combos on Rachel and Tager....But alas.

[zeth07]

This is worth mentioning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcBR7ftBnvo&feature=youtu.be&t=12m57s

Hazama throws Azrael out of Growler startup. The mook had Growler listed as being full invul. from frames 1-11, if this was true there's no reason for this to happen. So this is an apparent mook error, which means Growler is probably Head, Body, Foot invul. instead but can be thrown out of it. This takes Growler down a peg as a reversal and is definitely worth noting.

I'll be making changes in the threads/wiki as needed to reflect this at some point.

[AMB Bakery]

Wow even the commentators were screaming "Nage muteki ja nai zo! Hontou dattan desu yo ne ~~~ ?"

Welp, at least we still have backdash (which was pretty much the better reversal option to begin with). Still, for anybody that doesn't do throw meaty or doesn't properly try to bait and beat growler in their pressure string (that'd take some intense and specific positioning, though, probably not worth it), growler does the trick. Kind of like a really risky, meterless counter-assault, hit-effect-wise.

Unrelated: does anybody else find it odd that Azrael can gatling into high-low off of most of his normals yet his most successful mix-up by far is forward dash 5A/throw? Don't get me wrong, 5D is da gawd, but you see high-level players block it, and high-low doesn't mean anything if you don't incorporate both (hence why you usually see 2A into 5D). Thought I'd mention it if anyone wants to discuss it.

[mAc Chaos]

So Growler is basically cat chair.

[zeth07]

Wow even the commentators were screaming "Nage muteki ja nai zo! Hontou dattan desu yo ne ~~~ ?"

Welp, at least we still have backdash (which was pretty much the better reversal option to begin with). Still, for anybody that doesn't do throw meaty or doesn't properly try to bait and beat growler in their pressure string (that'd take some intense and specific positioning, though, probably not worth it), growler does the trick. Kind of like a really risky, meterless counter-assault, hit-effect-wise.

Unrelated: does anybody else find it odd that Azrael can gatling into high-low off of most of his normals yet his most successful mix-up by far is forward dash 5A/throw? Don't get me wrong, 5D is da gawd, but you see high-level players block it, and high-low doesn't mean anything if you don't incorporate both (hence why you usually see 2A into 5D). Thought I'd mention it if anyone wants to discuss it.

I would imagine because it is much easier to just block low > react to overhead, than it is to actually completely change the direction on reaction which in the case of Azrael's mixup isn't really plausible most of the time since you won't know if he's going to even do it or not.

Extra Example: Bang FRKZ mixup, nobody ever blocks it, much like Azrael's teleport mixups people will usually just hit you out of it if anything.

Edited July 25, 2013 by zeth07

[AMB Bakery]

I guess I probably should have used "funny" instead of "odd," because I do get why teleport mix-up is so strong. I guess really the root of my frustration is just how prevalent it is for any given Azrael player to end his strings in overheads. I'm not too concerned about doing that in America but any JP players familiar with the Az match-up know to block overhead. You see pretty much nobody besides significantly lower-dan Azraels use 2D or 3D in strings. Using lows is one of two solutions, the other being using teleport. Call it a scrub's hindsight (which it probably is), but there's too many times to count where a well-placed 2D would have hit. Plus that move's advantage even on non-weakpoint hit is too crazy (allows for a free forward dash even before emergency tech). I actually think one of his better high-lows, just in terms of testing your opponent, is something I saw Zekuso doing: airdash j.A/B > j.A land 2A. The speed at which the opponent has to switch from high to low rivals the 3C RC j.A mix-up (though is a lot easier to see since Azrael is going to land). Anyway, I should probably stop rambling before I say even more stupid things.

Small counter-point: "reacting" to 5D is probably easier said than done. 21 frames is going into Guilty Gear territories of fast (not millia or pot 6K fast, but still) plus the animation doesn't really scream "overhead" until it's too late. Point is, you kind of have to be expecting it in some way or already be stand-blocking. That prediction gets pretty easy though when it's almost always seen after 2A or 5A orz

[zeth07]

I guess I probably should have used "funny" instead of "odd," because I do get why teleport mix-up is so strong. I guess really the root of my frustration is just how prevalent it is for any given Azrael player to end his strings in overheads. I'm not too concerned about doing that in America but any JP players familiar with the Az match-up know to block overhead. You see pretty much nobody besides significantly lower-dan Azraels use 2D or 3D in strings. Using lows is one of two solutions, the other being using teleport. Call it a scrub's hindsight (which it probably is), but there's too many times to count where a well-placed 2D would have hit. Plus that move's advantage even on non-weakpoint hit is too crazy (allows for a free forward dash even before emergency tech). I actually think one of his better high-lows, just in terms of testing your opponent, is something I saw Zekuso doing: airdash j.A/B > j.A land 2A. The speed at which the opponent has to switch from high to low rivals the 3C RC j.A mix-up (though is a lot easier to see since Azrael is going to land). Anyway, I should probably stop rambling before I say even more stupid things.

Small counter-point: "reacting" to 5D is probably easier said than done. 21 frames is going into Guilty Gear territories of fast (not millia or pot 6K fast, but still) plus the animation doesn't really scream "overhead" until it's too late. Point is, you kind of have to be expecting it in some way or already be stand-blocking. That prediction gets pretty easy though when it's almost always seen after 2A or 5A orz

The tech window for throws is 13 frames and people can react to that, so 21f isn't all that bad (Bang's 5C is 18f). If anything just the fact that Azrael's teleport mixup exists makes it harder to anticipate any other mixup anyway.

You also have to consider the fact that most of the time they only have upper weakpoint applied so there's more incentive to go for 5D/6D than 2D/3D, or just landing 5D/6D and getting the upper weakpoint is better than lower weakpoint. While 3D is even slower than 5D as well but at least it is slightly ambiguous looking.

Not that Azrael players should never use those things, it's just more useful to do the others.

[skd]

The tech window for throws is 13 frames and people can react to that, so 21f isn't all that bad (Bang's 5C is 18f). If anything just the fact that Azrael's teleport mixup exists makes it harder to anticipate any other mixup anyway.

You also have to consider the fact that most of the time they only have upper weakpoint applied so there's more incentive to go for 5D/6D than 2D/3D, or just landing 5D/6D and getting the upper weakpoint is better than lower weakpoint. While 3D is even slower than 5D as well but at least it is slightly ambiguous looking.

Not that Azrael players should never use those things, it's just more useful to do the others.

i dont think a discernible, fully distinguished reaction is possible within 13 frames. Bang 5C doesnt connect on crouchers until later in the move, so it cant really be considered 18f in usage of an overhead. 17/18f is a hard reaction, (narukami air EX lion is extremely hard to react to, if at all when applied properly) and azrael 5D is a decently...seeable animation . Its reactable, but not by much (21f is good), so coupled with the threat of other things it becomes very viable mixup. i dont believe teleport mixup is very good without meter, though (due to 2b/grab option selects and hitting him out of it via just...other stuff)

[zeth07]

i dont think a discernible, fully distinguished reaction is possible within 13 frames. Bang 5C doesnt connect on crouchers until later in the move, so it cant really be considered 18f in usage of an overhead. 17/18f is a hard reaction, (narukami air EX lion is extremely hard to react to, if at all when applied properly) and azrael 5D is a decently...seeable animation . Its reactable, but not by much (21f is good), so coupled with the threat of other things it becomes very viable mixup. i dont believe teleport mixup is very good without meter, though (due to 2b/grab option selects and hitting him out of it via just...other stuff)

I would assume in the instances of those things happening you would be expecting them to happen as well and can react appropriately so while it might not be strictly reaction, it is within reason to "react" to them within context. At least compared to say 3C>RC>j.A or Rachel's IOH non-sense or Valkenhayn's wolf form mixup.

And while it seems silly to "argue" about whether or not teleport mixup is good when we haven't even touched the game, I'll just say that it sure seems to work A LOT against the Japanese players who have been playing the game for months and have played thousands of matches. If it wasn't good in some way we sure wouldn't be seeing it as much as we do, but I'm pretty sure we already had this conversation.