Chaoschao222 Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 5B's a good normal, no doubt. Changes Tager matchup from D: to :D
LiveWireX Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 5B's a good normal, no doubt. Changes Tager matchup from D: to :D Nah, nothing can change that matchup from "oh shit", other than taking away Sledge's projectile invincibility, or taking the projectile properties out of some of Noel's C and D moves, lol.
Surf Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Well I never fight Tager with Noel so I wouldnt know. I did it once then never again. That matchup is balls
SkyKing Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 I actually like fighting Tagers. Makes you really pay attention to your positioning. Also, Noel's normals were okay at best in EX, and seeing the nerfs to some in CP made me scratch my head a bit. It seems that they want her to focus more on her longer ranged ones rather than A mash to mix-ups. In a way, I can see why they would since Noel has an easier time converting to BnBs from any type of hit now than in previous versions.
Chaoschao222 Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Nah, nothing can change that matchup from "oh shit", other than taking away Sledge's projectile invincibility, or taking the projectile properties out of some of Noel's C and D moves, lol. Which is why 5B changes it, since it bypasses both of those problems.
LunaKage Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 5B is great, but even as one of our best spacing normals, it's really short ranged. 5C I still see as being really bad though, I'll never understand why I can get poked out of the blast radius of a gunshot.
LiveWireX Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Which is why 5B changes it, since it bypasses both of those problems. I know, but it's still a really really tough match, and one that I hate. Even if I force myself to play the match a bunch of the time.
SkyKing Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Dunno what they can do to 5C to make it better aside from completely rehauling it again like they did from CT to CS.
Surf Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 5C just feels like an inferior 5B. Slower, feels heavier, not jump canc on block, projectile attribute. I slowly learned that using that normal in neutral gets me bopped more time then I get a successful hit. And if I do get a hit and it's a normal hit I just to just go welp, cant go into anything to might as well j.C pressure reset. Which is why to me Chamber Shot is a godsend. There has been so many times where I had to try to reset pressure because of the range Im at or awkward confirms just to end up losing my pressure. And in some cases, the round. CPpls
Errol Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 from my point of view 5c looks like you would only use it when you want to call out a backdash.
Litherain-XIII Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 5c is pretty ass overall and honestly it was only kinda decent in CS1 when it was a bit faster. if they increased the range on it it wouldn't be as bad. iirc back in CS2 they attempted to make it jump cancelable on block in the loketest phases but decided to take it out at the last minute...
Surf Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 from my point of view 5c looks like you would only use it when you want to call out a backdash. Cant really convert anything off of that in EX. Unless your like in the corner. Might be able to 5C > 236A > dash 2A/6C midscreen. I dunno. The normal is just bad
FlameIce Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 You guys are crazy I think. 5C is a great normal. When spaced properly it has great priority and leads to nice chunk of damage on CH
Alpha152 Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 5C really doesn't have any benefits in comparison to 5B aside from its extended hitbox; but the negatives 5C has in comparison to 5B is a CH-state attack until full recovery, slower start-up, and the same attack level as 5B. I think having projectile attribute is a neutral property as it has its uses in trading with other level 1 projectiles, but is still susceptible to getting beat by projectile invuln attacks.
Errol Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 how much is there really that that matters for outside of tager? 5b looks pretty good. compared to Makoto's 5b (months back) and it has more range and without the negative of moving her forward, less exposed on whiff and has decent frame data. it isn't the same range as a plat 5b, or a mu 5c, but for what it is (9f startup normal, -2 on block), it seems to have quite good range. It sure isn't a Relius 5b, yeah.
Lucalibur Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 While defending Noel is against my religion, I'm gonna have to step here and say something. Makoto's 5B moving her forward is not a negative per se. Maybe it makes hitting her out of it easier, but it also means she will be at closer range if she cancels into anything. That is because the move it is cancelled into starts off from Makoto's actual position. It is the same case for moves like Ragna's 5C, which if you cancel into it you will see Ragna does the move from his new position, rather than the one from before 5C. Its a neutral properly for a move to cause the user to go forward since it has its pros and cons depending on the situation and it DOES indirectly boosts the move's range. That being said, I find Noel's 5B to be a surprisingly good normal for all its worth it. It can do a little of everything and its pretty much always safe. Her normals in general are not outstanding by any means, but I don't think they're truly bad. At least not all of them. Of course, I don't play Noel. This is just what I get from watching matches and whatnot.
Errol Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 moving forward has its advantages when you actually land it. If you don't land it, you're in for a hurting. Followups and reward are certainly part of normals. Maybe Noel has bad options after having a 5b blocked or on a 5b hit. makoto certainly would suffer on reward if 5b didn't move her forward.
Surf Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Nah she has good options on block. Its the options on hit that are usually the problem
Errol Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 What can you do on hit. I know you can yomi CH confirm 3c like tsubaki 5b>6c. Tsubaki really has some crappy options on her 5b, but her 6c is maybe a lil bit safer than Noel's 3c. I guess on hit you should be able to just dash in and 5a even if nothing else. outside of DP should be fine, should confirm into a combo if 5b was CH?
hipikachu Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 What can you do on hit. I know you can yomi CH confirm 3c like tsubaki 5b>6c. Tsubaki really has some crappy options on her 5b, but her 6c is maybe a lil bit safer than Noel's 3c. I guess on hit you should be able to just dash in and 5a even if nothing else. outside of DP should be fine, should confirm into a combo if 5b was CH? Regarding CH 5B>66>5A; Well, even a dashing 5A is kinda finicky considering 5B's most practical potential is at max range, and 5A's range isn't the best in the cast. And max range 5A is still an awkward confirm as 5A>6A>6C only works semi-point blank, while 5A>6A>air stuff doesn't give us a much-needed knockdown. CP j.2C is a godsend. Regarding 5C; I mainly use 5C for calling out bad jump-ins and as blockstring filler, but I agree it's very awkward to use outside of 3C yomi confirms. We can technically directly go into in air combo or dashing 5A if the confirm was close enough, but then using 5B would've worked much better in that scenario anyway. I'd just dash in and reset pressure on hit, or take a risk and cancel into 6D>214A/236A for an extremely risky gamble. 5C can buy you time to confirm on a croucher into 3C if you're outside of 2C range, so I think that's it's most practical use. While she doesn't have Ragna style blockstring-into-hitconfirm getlings, Noel's normals on their own are still pretty good in neutral. I use 2A as my main neutral poking tool, 5A to stuff out in-your-face mixups (Valkenhayn wolf cancels/Ragna corner Dead Spike, Hazama pressure), 5B for CH fishing, and 6A serves as an okay reactionary anti-air (makes Hazama 2C feel like a 20 frame startup). I guess the key is to avoid facing superior normals head-on, such as Ragna 5B and Hazama 5C. Ironically, hitconfirming with Noel's normals is actually one of the hardest parts of learning her.
Surf Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 Ironically, hitconfirming with Noel's normals is actually one of the hardest parts of learning her. Forreal
SkyKing Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 can't you combo ch 5b> 5b too? Technically, yeah, but I don't think it's worth it when you have other options. If you've got the reactions to, just 3C after confirming. If not, then you're best bet is going to be 236C or maybe 6D into a BnB.
Demon Wind Bomb Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 can't you combo ch 5b> 5b too? I've never tried that before so I'm not sure if it works or not, but I honestly can't see why anybody would go for it when you can just do ch 5b>236A for a decent combo with knockdown. ch 5b>5b would get you a decent combo unless you had 50 meter or the opponent was crouching and at max range there is a chance that the rest of your combo paths would whiff anyway. As for 5C I only really use it when I need a move with a little extra reach, otherwise 5B is a better choice in nearly all practical situations. 5C has slower start up, can't be jump canceled on block and despite it's hitbox it still trades with the weirdest things at max range. (I had it trade with Ragna's 6A a couple days ago.)
LunaKage Posted June 4, 2013 Posted June 4, 2013 In Extend I would space with Noel in a similar manner that I would with Sakura in SF4. I would throw out 5B at the distance that it would whiff if my opponent did nothing, but would CH if my opponent threw out a move. While throwing out the 5B I would a lot of times autopilot 5B > 236A. On whiff, 236A doesn't come out, and you're relatively safe, but on CH 236A combos, and you get a decent midscreen combo, and a good corner combo. On block, since spacing can't always be perfect, the OB is safe, and can only be punished on IB, but even then, you'll be at max range so only very few characters would actually be able to punish that. This is the same method Sakura players use in SF4/SFxT with her cr.MKxxx623HP, except on block it's punishable as fuck. Sadly this no longer works in CP, unless it's possible to get the med range OB to connect upon proper spacing, but it seems like more risk than it's worth. Using 3C as a replacement will be much more risky, but the tactic will fully match the Sakura method in this case since 3C is punishable as balls.
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