[CP] Iron Tager Gameplay Discussion

[TagerTime]

Well of course all the nerfs to Tager are totally idiotic and completely unnecessary. But at least im loving the fixed fatal j.2c height and faster 2d that we got instead of real needed buffs....

[Valthazeryus]

The airborne j2C was much needed. Before it utterly useless. At least now it is consistent finally.

[TagerTime]

The airborne j2C was much needed. Before it utterly useless. At least now it is consistent finally.

Yes that's true but it doesn't really count as a buff. It was just basically another bug that needed to be fixed. Its ridiculous how it got past play testing in the first place, but then again Arc never liked Tager very much so its understandable. However, Im just glad that they eventually turned to hate Makoto more than Tager nowadays.

[just some guy]

You're doing it too slow then.

I feel incredibly stupid about this. I kept doing AC before the Gadget, as I've been conditioned to do for the last several games.

[Argent Zero]

Went online and did more matches with Tager. The backdash nerf hurts alot. Why?

 

I want my old Tager back.

[mAc Chaos]

I spent the entire night running Tagers over by backdash punishing with 5A and jB. It felt like playing Extend. It was great.

Although I'm sure they'll figure out how to deal with it.

[Mucky]

Although I'm sure they'll figure out how to deal with it.

 

yeah, by ripping the 4 button out of my dpad

[Yohosie]

Changes to Tager are complete garbage. Backdash change means that most of our defensive options are gone so we have to block mixups and meaties with no real solution except maybe Counter Assaulting out (a huge problem in this game). Gadget Finger no longer giving us heat really hurts Oki, since RCing Gadget is much more reliable than raw Gadget oki. 5A nerf is just dicks, but workable. 2D change helps but nobody was really asking for it and it doesn't address the character's problems.

This character is even more balls than before. While you can certainly win with him, his gameplan is so reactive. Without backdash people can just run their game on him and he has to hold that, and unless you're Grandia that is insanely difficult to fight against.

[Brice]

Even though Backdash is not really a reliable tool in 1.1, and that the 5A nerf is pretty sad, the overall Tager life is not that terrible. Remember that everyone got changes, good and bad, and that is not negligible.

 

I mean Valkenhayn is not as terrible as it once was,

Kokonoe should be a breath of fresh air now,

we can make safe jumps and whiffed 5A against Mu12's DP,

and so on.

 

The only exception right now being that the Rachel matchup is now even worse than before. Maybe Carl too. Relius I can't really say, it wasn't fun to start with...

 

I haven't played a whole lot against all the other characters, but when we'll get accustomed to the changes we'll still be able to win.

 

As for me, the most hurting nerf is the backdash, breaks my heart so bad. But like everyone will say : I'll deal with it and hold that nerf.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

5A nerf making GF oki so bad has made me resort to GF whiff oki extremely often now. Being able to meaty with something other than 5A is a huge help now.

 

If you do go for GF oki and have to use 5A, you pretty much always have to resort to gimmicks to do anything real (unless you have a ton of resources for a MTW>TB combo). That's not terrible seeing as we're a grappler, and 5A>360/AC will always be a threat, but it's frustrating for sure.

 

I've found myself resorting to hard reads on GF almost all the time now.

[Darlos9D]

You know, we also got one extra frame of invuln on our backdash. It might recover more slowly, but there's more that it can avoid. We just need to learn what can and can't be avoided safely and/or punishably with the new recovery. And we never should have been tossing it out there super-randomly anyway.

 

I was really afraid that I wouldn't be able to do hard callouts on DPs anymore. But now it should actually be easier. I'm not mad at all.

 

Also if you look at the combo thread you should be able to get 2k off of a 5A after GF. It's not huge, but it'll keep people honest enough to not want to get hit by it into another GF. I'll still be tossing it out plenty.

 

Loss of heat gain does kinda suck though.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

You know, we also got one extra frame of invuln on our backdash. It might recover more slowly, but there's more that it can avoid. We just need to learn what can and can't be avoided safely and/or punishably with the new recovery. And we never should have been tossing it out there super-randomly anyway.

 

I was really afraid that I wouldn't be able to do hard callouts on DPs anymore. But now it should actually be easier. I'm not mad at all.

 

Also if you look at the combo thread you should be able to get 2k off of a 5A after GF. It's not huge, but it'll keep people honest enough to not want to get hit by it into another GF. I'll still be tossing it out plenty.

 

Loss of heat gain does kinda suck though.

 

when it was 23F 1-19invuln that's a 4F gap of vulnerability. Now it's 1-20invuln 28F which is an 8F gap of vulnerability. This massively reduces the amount of things we can counter with it. Because you have to wait til your backdash is done to do anything, regardless of invuln frames. Our opponents just gained 5 more frames to recover and jump out of any potential throws, and we got a single frame of invuln as consolation. This is really significant because most of the time you backstep -> throw the throw only has a couple of frames to come out before the opponent recovers.

 

Basically you will never backstep anything ever again, honestly, unless it's some super telegraphed neutral tool that you could easily just block with Voltec Charge instead. We were able to hard callout DPs just fine before without another frame of invuln.

 

I have seriously been unable to backstep > throw anything since the patch came out. I just go for the usual IB>360A tech now. Knowing your opponent's strings/frame data is more important than ever.

[A.X.I.S.]

Ok my thoughts on CP 1.1 Tager.

 

5A/2 is really bad we can get get anything off of it really, before we where able to do things like 5A>5B>5C>6A>3C.

Route gone.

Now we are just stuck with 5A>5B>3C>gadget.

It also kills our corner routes too.

Hate this change a lot, makes hitting with 5A less rewarding.

Gadget change is balls too, now if you sucked at hard reading then now you got no choice but to get better at it. (honestly you guys should be decent at it now, its been 4 YEARS!)

 

Backdash change is the worse.

Instead of making a read and calling people out and punishing, you can only use it to punish specific things, its not quite the end of the world but it does make room for your opponent to get away with sloppiness.

 

2D change is cool, means when we whiff it we don't always die half the time.

 

j.2C change was a change that was needed.

 

Addendum, I can't play this version of Tager, too much work for bleh reward.

I think he's definitely harder to play to win with.

[SoWL]

This might be something that I just missed in CP 1.0, but apparently you can 720 by spinning the stick once in Training mode, though I can only do it after resetting the position. Since I couldn't reproduce it in any other way, it's probably useless, but I was kinda excited for a moment.

[Valthazeryus]

AXIS. Aren't you an Azrael player now?

[mAc Chaos]

he can't help but think of home

[A.X.I.S.]

AXIS. Aren't you an Azrael player now?

I am an Azrael player but I touch tager to see how he functions, see how his changes effect him first hand.

It's my job to do so.

[TagerTime]

I am an Azrael player but I touch tager to see how he functions, see how his changes effect him first hand.

It's my job to do so.

YOU TRAITOR!!!    Well at least your still a member of sector 7.....

 

Maybe Arc will announce the new updated version of BBCP for ps4 at E3. Hopefully then they reverse the nerfs and will give him at least some of the buffs he really needs. Thats all we can hope for now, but they might just say they made him too good in CP and nerf him back to CT Tager.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Only thing I like about the 5A nerf is the gimmicks I can get off of it's shitty stun proration now.

 

For example:

 

5A>3C>AC whiff>2C>AC>GF whiff>360B blows up neutral and forward tech hard with almost no risk of punishment on backward tech

 

The downside obviously being the fact that it's a gimmick and if they backward tech they will fly pretty far away (which is what makes it safe)

 

Quick wake-up could potentially punish you too, but that's a pretty hard read on their end and you'd deserve it.

[Rewenger]

R.I.P. science

[Yohosie]

someone on my facebook told me "bullet is a better grappler now than tager" and i died a little inside, because he's right

[Ctrlaltwtf]

someone on my facebook told me "bullet is a better grappler now than tager" and i died a little inside, because he's right

 

That's more than a little bit of an exaggeration. It's not like Busters/720s have changed at all.

[mAc Chaos]

reminds me of when people said bang was a better grappler

[BatousaiJ]

It's cool, I've moved to Bullet's 720. It's way cooler.

 

I've heard Potemkin's a really solid character, I don't know why they can't give the same treatment to Tager. 

[Argent Zero]

CT Tager.

 

Wait is that what they wanted? To buff(?) him all through out the series so they can see when to knock him back down?

So it's legit when Tagers start command grabbing constantly, right? Tech traps are fair game?