[CP] Izayoi Gameplay Discussion - Tobe! Gandamu!

[skd]

By any chance were you at evo 2014?

no, sadly haha. i was mentioned in the booklet as a player to watch for, despite not going (woop woop). mainly a money thing, got a lot of offers to fly out but i dont really want to accept stuff like that.

 

also i moved your post from the video thread, sorry!

Edited December 12, 2014 by not_lunaris

[Ichipoo]

Yeah, neutral and earning respect is what I /still/ have trouble with with Izayoi. I may not be a tournament player but I would like to get better but it's pretty hard when the people I play at locals just want to play their "game" and I get blown up for it off of one wrong move or read, especially since pre 2.0 Izayoi has no reversal and I'm not quite familiar with a lot of the casts' strings. It's also a bit discouraging when my opponent doesn't do what I expect them to do on defense and they get away with it haha. Mimicking what top players do is simple, but trying to understand what goes on in their minds is another level for me. However, I should also put in more effort than what I put in if I want to get better, such as actively asking for advice and putting myself on the spotlight and showing my matches to others (which could be hard since I don't have a recording device )

 

Anyway back to 2.0 for a bit, we have a somewhat different variation of the GA sideswap combo by a player named Super Donkey (lol); stuff > 5B > 236B > 214B > 5C > 2C > stuff. 

 

http://youtu.be/b2hvHCk4YtA?t=56s

 

Tried to be cute lol

 

http://youtu.be/b2hvHCk4YtA?t=3m49s

 

Also, Ju Roku Cha is probably the best 2.0 Izayoi player I've watched so far.

 

Corner 5B > 236C > Astraea > 2C > 5C > 2C(1) >  6C > 623C > 5C > j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

2 stocks, 3995 damage

http://youtu.be/mDC9szveboI?t=9m24s

 

Using Noir > Strike Fall to bait Bursts.

http://youtu.be/mDC9szveboI?t=9m37s

 

Near corner CH 623B > Strike Fall > Astraea > 5C > 2C(1) > 6C > 623C > 5C > j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

3 stocks, 3728 damage

http://youtu.be/F8X6H1tn3HM?t=10m27s

 

Near corner CH 623B  > Strike Fall > Astraea > 5C > Phorizer > 214D > 5C > 2C(1) > 6C > j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

4 stocks, 50 Heat, 4388 damage

http://youtu.be/F8X6H1tn3HM?t=11m15s 

 

Near corner 5B > 236C > Astraea > 2C > 5C > 6A > Phorizer > 214D > 5C > 2C(1) > 6C > 623C > j.B > j.C > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

3 stocks, 50 heat, 4718 damage

http://youtu.be/mDC9szveboI?t=12m42s

 

I don't think we could combo after Phorizer if we used it mid combo before could we?

 

But yeah, those of you who think that 2.0 Izayoi has no damage, well hope you're happy now lol.

[skd]

Yeah, neutral and earning respect is what I /still/ have trouble with with Izayoi. I may not be a tournament player but I would like to get better but it's pretty hard when the people I play at locals just want to play their "game" and I get blown up for it off of one wrong move or read, especially since pre 2.0 Izayoi has no reversal and I'm not quite familiar with a lot of the casts' strings. It's also a bit discouraging when my opponent doesn't do what I expect them to do on defense and they get away with it haha. Mimicking what top players do is simple, but trying to understand what goes on in their minds is another level for me. However, I should also put in more effort than what I put in if I want to get better, such as actively asking for advice and putting myself on the spotlight and showing my matches to others (which could be hard since I don't have a recording device )

 

Anyway back to 2.0 for a bit, we have a somewhat different variation of the GA sideswap combo by a player named Super Donkey (lol); stuff > 5B > 236B > 214B > 5C > 2C > stuff. 

 

http://youtu.be/b2hvHCk4YtA?t=56s

 

Tried to be cute lol

 

http://youtu.be/b2hvHCk4YtA?t=3m49s

 

Also, Ju Roku Cha is probably the best 2.0 Izayoi player I've watched so far.

 

Corner 5B > 236C > Astraea > 2C > 5C > 2C(1) >  6C > 623C > 5C > j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

2 stocks, 3995 damage

http://youtu.be/mDC9szveboI?t=9m24s

 

Using Noir > Strike Fall to bait Bursts.

http://youtu.be/mDC9szveboI?t=9m37s

 

Near corner CH 623B > Strike Fall > Astraea > 5C > 2C(1) > 6C > 623C > 5C > j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

3 stocks, 3728 damage

http://youtu.be/F8X6H1tn3HM?t=10m27s

 

Near corner CH 623B  > Strike Fall > Astraea > 5C > Phorizer > 214D > 5C > 2C(1) > 6C > j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

4 stocks, 50 Heat, 4388 damage

http://youtu.be/F8X6H1tn3HM?t=11m15s 

 

Near corner 5B > 236C > Astraea > 2C > 5C > 6A > Phorizer > 214D > 5C > 2C(1) > 6C > 623C > j.B > j.C > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

3 stocks, 50 heat, 4718 damage

http://youtu.be/mDC9szveboI?t=12m42s

 

I don't think we could combo after Phorizer if we used it mid combo before could we?

 

But yeah, those of you who think that 2.0 Izayoi has no damage, well hope you're happy now lol.

 

well, i mean defense is crucial with any character. you cant just pick a char without a reversal and go "this life sucks" lmao. even with reversal chars, i find myself disrespecting more with izayoi because of higher reward. Don't really know what you expect a DP to do for you in most matchups, on your opponent's behalf its another thing to punish for bad usage. Still have to play well, and her DP isnt quite the fastest/just do it hitbox so...yeah. I really dont think you can blame any aspect of the character in this version aside from very specific matchups but honestly she seems harder in 2.0 lol, stock management and planning is more important due to high damage confirms really being expensive. Low damage confirms are more effective than before, but if you dont really plan ahead you'll probably be out on either stocks or damage. hits seem to give you less stock return, etc etc. before, you could hit someone once in normal mode and get 3-4k with 6 stocks and knockdown, and you'd kill them in 2 combos. You only needed 3 solid hits to actually seal out a round. Now? we're looking at 2, even 3 more mixups per round. Damage is lower, stocks are more valuable. Shes more well rounded with better tools, but you definitely have to put in more work with those tools.

 

regardless, those damage figures are definitely a lot lower than 1.1. im 99% sure there are better conversions but yeah. most 2 stock combo damage previously will cost 3 now, which is alright due to not needing like CH and stuff. Since 1 stock damage is up anyways, it isnt...horrible. 5b maxrange hit is down /700 damage/ if you go by that combo, so yeah. 623B combo damage is also significantly down, around 700. When you say that about her having no damage, its definitely not comparable to before off those combos lol.

 

phorizer midcombo is an old thing. maybe better now due to how restrictive combo routes are (before, you only gained a small amount of damage) but it wasn't quite as good of choice because of how meter cooldown works, and in order for phorizer to give you significantly more damage you'd need to use it earlier in the combo (earlier than he used it). Previously, your combo routes were so freeform and did so much damage that phorizer like that was pretty much useless. Now, I can only see it really adding damage off close confirms (5B 6A Phorizer) but you end up sacrificing any meter you'd gain in the middle of the combo. Theres probably some good middle ground for blowing meter and getting damage, but if they burst then suddenly youre just like "why did i do that" and youre out on meter, so thats another thing to take into consideration. But yeah, the reason why that might be preferable now for raw damage is because the loss of 236B air hit letting you get a lot more high p2 moves into the combo using phorizer to link them. Still costs an extra star, tho.

 

also the burst thing, serizawa could have just bursted earlier lol. also he rc'd which is pretty much just a hard bait at that point.

Edited December 13, 2014 by not_lunaris

[Ichipoo]

Oh I didn't notice the RC. :P

 

Anyway, I'm not blaming the character, my losses are 99% my fault. I'm just at a loss on what to do sometimes since I would play long sets with one person for an hour and I would little to no improvement or adjustment no matter what I learn as I'm playing along. Perhaps this has to do with me not putting in the effort to research the character(s) the others play and other things as well.

[crimsonstardust]

I get what Ichipoo is saying about having DP, I think just the fact a character has one makes an opponent think twice about how they are gonna approach pressuring and such. When I play characters without a reversal (and having no meter) a lot more people seem to go more ham and really looking for the right holes makes it harder to get out of situations. I definitely get that also comes with playing the character without one and you have to make do with what they can do.

I know for myself when I play Izayoi I'm looking for moments to throw in 6A/phorizer or try to fly out of the corner when I'm under pressure. I rarely find the right moment to disrespect by sticking a normal cause I feel like messing up once doesn't leave much room room for error, I guess there's also a part of me afraid to hit buttons cause I know a good portions of her normals are a tad slow but that might be just be me not braving the storm. One of these days I'll have to record my match with Izayoi against characters I have trouble with.

[Blueriku]

no, sadly haha. i was mentioned in the booklet as a player to watch for, despite not going (woop woop). mainly a money thing, got a lot of offers to fly out but i dont really want to accept stuff like that.

 

also i moved your post from the video thread, sorry!

I was at EVO and saw Dora play it would of been amazing to see you up on that stage, but it's understandable if I was offered stuff like that I don't I wouldn't be comfortable accepting either, I'm just lucky i live on the west coast but the bbcp scene here is almost non existent =(

[bakahyl]

Has izayoi lost a little in damage in 2.0 or have i been watching videos of people who weren't using her optimal combos?

[crimsonstardust]

It might be a combination of both from what I heard, if I remember right I think she did lose poration here and there combo wise.

Does anyone know the frame number on Izayoi doing GA 2C(1) stance cancel is on block? I know she's has more frame advantage when just doing both hits but just curious cause I'm trying to work on what I can do with 2C on block.

[Ichipoo]

Midscreen 5B > 236B > 214B > 5C > 2C (second hit whiffs) > 3C > 236C > Astraea > 214B > 5B > 5C > j.B > j.C > dj.B > dj.C > Noir > Strike Fall

2 stocks, 3.3~3.4 damage

http://youtu.be/kvDmfPrn53I?t=4m47s

 

Decent damage for two stocks off a midscreen confirm? And I'm sure you can also just end the combo at 3C if you don't have any stocks for a quick knockdown. Pretty similar to the route(s) SKD was using in NEC IIRC.

[crimsonstardust]

I forgot 236B had its start up speed buffed making it possible to do off 5B. I'm glad she can still do good damage mid screen.

 

EDIT: Wait did it get buffed? I know in 1.1 you can combo 236B off 5B counter hit and looking at the footage again it was counter hit.

[StylisH]

well, i mean defense is crucial with any character. you cant just pick a char without a reversal and go "this life sucks" lmao. even with reversal chars, i find myself disrespecting more with izayoi because of higher reward. Don't really know what you expect a DP to do for you in most matchups, on your opponent's behalf its another thing to punish for bad usage. Still have to play well, and her DP isnt quite the fastest/just do it hitbox so...yeah. I really dont think you can blame any aspect of the character in this version aside from very specific matchups but honestly she seems harder in 2.0 lol, stock management and planning is more important due to high damage confirms really being expensive. Low damage confirms are more effective than before, but if you dont really plan ahead you'll probably be out on either stocks or damage. hits seem to give you less stock return, etc etc. before, you could hit someone once in normal mode and get 3-4k with 6 stocks and knockdown, and you'd kill them in 2 combos. You only needed 3 solid hits to actually seal out a round. Now? we're looking at 2, even 3 more mixups per round. Damage is lower, stocks are more valuable. Shes more well rounded with better tools, but you definitely have to put in more work with those tools.

 

regardless, those damage figures are definitely a lot lower than 1.1. im 99% sure there are better conversions but yeah. most 2 stock combo damage previously will cost 3 now, which is alright due to not needing like CH and stuff. Since 1 stock damage is up anyways, it isnt...horrible. 5b maxrange hit is down /700 damage/ if you go by that combo, so yeah. 623B combo damage is also significantly down, around 700. When you say that about her having no damage, its definitely not comparable to before off those combos lol.

 

phorizer midcombo is an old thing. maybe better now due to how restrictive combo routes are (before, you only gained a small amount of damage) but it wasn't quite as good of choice because of how meter cooldown works, and in order for phorizer to give you significantly more damage you'd need to use it earlier in the combo (earlier than he used it). Previously, your combo routes were so freeform and did so much damage that phorizer like that was pretty much useless. Now, I can only see it really adding damage off close confirms (5B 6A Phorizer) but you end up sacrificing any meter you'd gain in the middle of the combo. Theres probably some good middle ground for blowing meter and getting damage, but if they burst then suddenly youre just like "why did i do that" and youre out on meter, so thats another thing to take into consideration. But yeah, the reason why that might be preferable now for raw damage is because the loss of 236B air hit letting you get a lot more high p2 moves into the combo using phorizer to link them. Still costs an extra star, tho.

 

also the burst thing, serizawa could have just bursted earlier lol. also he rc'd which is pretty much just a hard bait at that point.

 

In other words, the key will be meter management more than ever now, which makes sense considering how with her buffs and the alarming frequency you can get in while in GA.  Can't make it too easy for the home team.

[Ichipoo]

http://youtu.be/niLIvB_AyzE?t=1m55s

 

Watching this made me wonder if those 3C loops still work.

 

http://youtu.be/niLIvB_AyzE?t=2m28s

 

lol

[Ichipoo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drIy5YHejEo

 

Just something trivial I've noticed. The black Izayoi in the Kouhatsu videos is getting a lot of mileage by something as simple as just crouching down and waiting for his opponent to use their air normal in an awkward position, which works out for the most part since he either gets a combo in or can start pressure at the least.

[bakahyl]

yes, technically. it works the same way that it would now, just with full body invuln from frame 1 instead of head invuln from frame 4. When you hold it past the minimum startup it loses invlun (as it does now), only regaining the inv after you release the button to do the attack (at this point, you can stance cancel the move)

So i guess that in this case Izayoi held the dp for too long or something ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drIy5YHejEo&t=3h18m19s

[LaowPing]

Any tips on what to do against Izayoi? I keep getting bodied by Nemesis and want to suck a little bit less in this match up.

Edit: Anything Jin or Terumi specific would be awesome

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[BlackYakuzu94]

Any tips on what to do against Izayoi? I keep getting bodied by Nemesis and want to suck a little bit less in this match up.

Edit: Anything Jin or Terumi specific would be awesome

Sent from my ZTE-X500 using Tapatalk 2

 

Maybe you should go to the matchup threads ey hombre :V

[LaowPing]

Maybe you should go to the matchup threads ey hombre :V

I feel like I lack and understanding of the character more than the understanding of the match up.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I feel like I lack and understanding of the character more than the understanding of the match up.

....That doesn't...make a whole lot of sense.

 

 

If you're trying to figure out how to play against a character with another character, wouldn't it stand to reason to measure your tools against hers? 

 

Especially since you're asking what to do against her.

[SixWingedAngel]

2b cancelable from 5b hgggnnnnnn

[LaowPing]

....That doesn't...make a whole lot of sense.

 

 

If you're trying to figure out how to play against a character with another character, wouldn't it stand to reason to measure your tools against hers? 

 

Especially since you're asking what to do against her.

I'm not trying to learn how to beat her with a specific character, just beat her in general. The jin and terumi thing was just in case someone had something specific but you are right that it's better to use match-ups for that. I went and saw the Terumi match up was just "hope for the best" and the Jin match helps a little though one of the later post was mis-informed. Dealing with her specials (the ones were she swings her sword forward and has hella range and little recovery) and her D projectile into D teleport seems to be an issue I can't decipher. Sorry if this is the wrong place for it. I can stick to the match-up sections if it's a problem but I figured the Izayoi players would be a good start.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I'm not trying to learn how to beat her with a specific character, just beat her in general. The jin and terumi thing was just in case someone had something specific but you are right that it's better to use match-ups for that. I went and saw the Terumi match up was just "hope for the best" and the Jin match helps a little though one of the later post was mis-informed. Dealing with her specials (the ones were she swings her sword forward and has hella range and little recovery) and her D projectile into D teleport seems to be an issue I can't decipher. Sorry if this is the wrong place for it. I can stick to the match-up sections if it's a problem but I figured the Izayoi players would be a good start.

 

I mean you can just go the opposing thread then lol. I mean for general and overall understanding, its fine to ask here but what a player does is kind of matchup and player dependent.

[LaowPing]

I mean you can just go the opposing thread then lol. I mean for general and overall understanding, its fine to ask here but what a player does is kind of matchup and player dependent.

Ok, lets try something that might be more on topic then.

 

How free is D projectile into D teleport? I've tried blocking and just got hit out of the air by that move that goes straight up. Is there a way to disrespect it or is it better to just block it and try to defend the mix-ups?

[Ichipoo]

Ok, lets try something that might be more on topic then.

 

How free is D projectile into D teleport? I've tried blocking and just got hit out of the air by that move that goes straight up. Is there a way to disrespect it or is it better to just block it and try to defend the mix-ups?

This part doesn't really make sense to me tbh. Are you talking about Izayoi's Noir Edge?

 

And depending on where you live/how the connection is, I wouldn't mind mashing against you since I play Izayoi myself, although tbh, she's not really a "netplay friendly" character as I was told a while ago.

[skd]

i'd suggest more specific questions, laow ping.

 

I can't tell what kind of issues you're having, and specific advice would be pretty centric to the level of play, if it were to be effective at all. I could definitely give you tips, but I have no clue what he is applying and what he isn't. Generally though, I can tell you about how she wants to play, and in turn how to work with that.

 

1) She's going to start the match and fight for stocks. Essentially, she's going to float between both modes to find an opening or move more effectively. In normal mode she wants to play around shooting A saber, and deal with you moving around grounded A saber. Air A saber is used to cover spaces where you think someone might be. Generally, low commitment neutral from her is ideal, but she needs to get close to make you guess/move badly and end up blocking sabers. Jin and terumi can't really disrespect this in any particular way, aside from normal neutral things (jump over A saber done too close, for example. but ideally, she wont want to do this). Focus on approaching her safely, but be mindful of her remaining air actions after shooting an air saber. She can't cover approach perfectly while taking an active role, which is why she wants to generally play it very passive. In GA, with no stars, she can get in and create a tech/oki situation to exploit in normal mode, but at the end of the day the deterrent for her air game (A saber teleport) is not really there so any failed hard calls at anti airing her don't really pack a punch if you get tagged. If she does have 1 star though, she can turn this into normal mode pressure, so stay on your toes. Ultimately, the goal here is to score hits in normal mode through either neutral in normal mode, or converting a low star cost hit in gain art to get more stocks. You usually won't see people going back and forth often because you lose out on too much momentum/setup from gain art that makes her truly scary, so the flow of: Get 3 stocks > Mode change, blow stocks > Get 3 Stocks > Mode change, blow stocks is not as effective as getting 6 at once and going in with them, but the options exist depending on the demand of the situation, so she's a bit flexible.

 

2) If she gets in for normal mode pressure, its relatively hard to disrespect. All she really wants is for you to block so she can get stars, but there are times where she may overcommit if she gets too greedy. Focus on low commitment options (good jumping, instant blocks). Staple options are 6C stance cancel (it's +1, but her 2A is 8f), 236A (Neutral on block point blank), 236C~B/C. Attempting to punish the 236 series is a bit...risky, as she can delay her teleport to make you whiff a move. She's usually going to resort to creating space, (or letting it recover on it's own) but its a guess on your behalf. Pretty straightforward, the spacing that 6C can leave her at depending on the gatlings you run may make a disrespect 2A after 6C stance cancel whiff, so you need to be careful there too, since 1 hit at that range will turn into 6 stocks.

 

3) Assuming she got her stocks without dying in the process, she's in GA, she outmaneuvers you, she can bully you as far as air approach goes. Jin 2C is good, terumi 6A is also good, but theyre not definite answers as they carry a lot of risk if she were to do A saber > teleport (especially 2C) . She just straight up has great air movement, so it's very hard to catch her or keep her cornered, but focus on playing well around her approach. Stay at a good range for A saber teleport where you can jump it, hopefully she will teleport behind you and into your attacking range. This goes best with backwards jumps, jin j2C is great for this. Aside from this, there really are no concrete answers. Her approach can be countered if you guess correctly, but you need to just figure out where she is interested in attacking you from. She wants to attack at angles where your anti airs will either whiff or you need to guess so that you let her walk all over you, so in a sense she forces you to take action otherwise you are probably going to die. It's a bit hard to wait out her stocks in neutral, since she doesn't really need to use them for them to be threatening. Jumping badly or moving into bad positions really lets her exploit thanks to teleport, so you need to know these ranges beforehand. Ideally, you want to be kind of midrange, but outside of her anticipated horizontal range air to air. Jin jC does this, Terumi jD does this. Again, by no means free. She can move a little farther/faster/higher to deal with it, but you need to take advantage of that too and pressure her when possible. Essentially, force her to overextend herself in neutral to deal with safe options.

 

4) Her pressure game...if you were playing against me, i'd definitely say focus on low commitment escapes (again, jumping and IB forces her to commit to something that will let you escape, but it's much less free against GA). She hits super hard in GA, but if you just sit tight and block you are going to get opened up, so you gotta do something. She's never really at loss for frame traps or advantage, so mashing to disrespect CAN work, but its not really in your interest because if you are wrong you just took a lot of damage, god forbid you are in the corner it's almost 5k meterless.

 

as far as defense goes, i don't really have a lot  to say. I don't think terumi is good enough to actually open up a competent player consistently, jin is much more fortunate. she has a great backdash that is very hard to hard call, so at max range it's super hard to keep her blocking.

 

D saber > teleport is very difficult to disrespect, if you block it in the air and she is underneath you, you are open to left right mixup during blockstun (you need to barrier in the correct direction). If you are on the ground, yeah, you need to hold the mixup unless you have meter to dead angle or burst during blockstun.

 

ok, i hope that answered a few of your questions at least.

Edited April 15, 2015 by not_lunaris

[LaowPing]

This answered a lot actually. I can never seem to out nuetral her due to the range on her specials but i see now i might just need to space myself better. Now that I understand the plan i might be able to deal with it. I'm going to watch some videos of good players and see how they handle it. Appreciate it. Good to have you on dustloop SKD

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