bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Might as well try to make one for Mu Pro's - very strong neutral both on the the ground and in the air - very versatile tools that can be used for keep away and rush down - very strong oki's and traps - can somewhat outzone some "zoning characters" and can somewhat play keep away against rushdown characters - her lasers are a very good distraction to throw your opponent and her lasers are a good cover to make her approach safe - very high metereless damage in the corner, when winning air to air and from many kind of counterhits - very high damage when spending meter on combo's - has a dp that also be used in the air and it's probably one of the better dp's in the game - fairly decent backdash Con's - her normals are rather slow - her meterless midscreen damage is somewhat poor - her air normals lack a vertical hitbox and they are not that reliable for air to ground situations - while she has 2 AA's , she still does poorly against people who approach her vertically - her normals are not that safe and she needs to cancel her attacks into something to make it safe - poor mixups - most of her gimmicks need time to set up and she is vulnerable while setting up steins - she is not a true zoner, because her zoning tools are not meant to be used on their own. - low health - she has problems against very mobile characters and the actual zoner of the game : lambda - she also has some problems against charactes who get in "her face", eventhough she still has a dp , backdash and counter assault - Her counter assault has very poor range - i am not sure if she is beginner's friendly, because of learning some things like her oki's , stein placement etc. - Her dp clashes alot with many kinds of attack (eventhough this can be used in your advantage if you aware of it but that advantage is easily nulled if your opponent also anticipates a clash). - her dp has poor range, but it is still decently fast and it has lots of active frames edit: i am sure i forgot some pro's and con's but i can't think of any more when it's 3AM edit: wow, i am making her sound worse than she actually is. lol Edited April 12, 2013 by bakahyl
Airk Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 Which of Mu's normals is "slow" exactly? And uh... EVERYONE in this game (Except, apparently, Hazama, who is a cheater) has normals that are unsafe and need to be cancelled into something. It's how the game works. I'm tired of seeing people use that as "My character's weakness is that his/her normals are minus on block!" Also, I don't think a character with a DP as good as Mu's is allowed to list "has trouble with people who get in her face" as some sort of unique disadvantage. Talk to Valk or Bang or Tao or Carl or something about "trouble with people who get in your face".
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) Which of Mu's normals is "slow" exactly? And uh... EVERYONE in this game (Except, apparently, Hazama, who is a cheater) has normals that are unsafe and need to be cancelled into something. It's how the game works. I'm tired of seeing people use that as "My character's weakness is that his/her normals are minus on block!" Her gattlings have a few frames gaps in it. As in, if you use the wrong string of C moves, she will get hit by a dp or Tager's command grabs very easily. Eventhough you can use it as a frame trap. Also she has a long recovery on whiffed moves and i took that also into account as "slow" Also, I don't think a character with a DP as good as Mu's is allowed to list "has trouble with people who get in her face" as some sort of unique disadvantage. Talk to Valk or Bang or Tao or Carl or something about "trouble with people who get in your face". Bang, Tao and somewhat Carl have faster close range normals that can be used to "mash" of some situations though. Her 5a whiffs on crouchers Edited April 12, 2013 by bakahyl
Daedron Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 Her gattlings have a few frames gaps in it. As in, if you use the wrong string of C moves, she will get hit by a dp or Tager's command grabs very easily. Eventhough you can use it as a frame trap. Also she has a long recovery on whiffed moves and i took that also into account as "slow" Tsubaki must be the worst character in the game then. Oh wait. DAMMIT!
Airk Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 Her gattlings have a few frames gaps in it. As in, if you use the wrong string of C moves, she will get hit by a dp or Tager's command grabs very easily. True of everyone. Working as intended. Bang, Tao and somewhat Carl have faster close range normals that can be used to "mash" of some situations though. Her 5a whiffs on crouchers Not really. Character/5A/2A Bang/6/8 Mu/6/7 Carl/6/6 Tao/7/6 And Mu's 2B is stupid fast at 8 frames.
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 True of everyone. Working as intended. Her gaps are very noticable even without IB. Not really. Character/5A/2A Bang/6/8 Mu/6/7 Carl/6/6 Tao/7/6 And Mu's 2B is stupid fast at 8 frames. Her 5a whiffs on crouching characters and characters who use crouching attacks (it does work as a ghetto anti air though) her 2a is ok, but hardly reliable to get out of close range as it has low range her 2b is fast, but it's not the most preferred attack to use when getting out of close range
Errol Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 there really are not many characters with better. Makoto's 2a is 6 frames, but also has a lot less range than Mu's 2a. Better is probably.. Noel? It doesn't seem like a weakness at any rate.
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) there really are not many characters with better. Makoto's 2a is 6 frames, but also has a lot less range than Mu's 2a. Better is probably.. Noel? It doesn't seem like a weakness at any rate. Personally i am forced to use my 2a or 2b against most characters 5a, because my own 5a hits too high if they do crouch. Also this is not just about 5a and 2a normals, i am also forced to my 2a, 2b at close range against characters who have fast normals like ragna and jin's 5b. And when i get (counter) hit i will be pretty much always in a crouching state, which leads to extra damage (i am pretty sure almost every character has a higher damage combo that works on crouchers) Edited April 12, 2013 by bakahyl
Errol Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 what do you mean most character's 5a, I don't think most characters' 5a hits crouchers? It's probably about half and half. I don't even think of having a high hitting 5a as a disadvantage because there's lots of good stuff that comes with it
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) what do you mean most character's 5a, I don't think most characters' 5a hits crouchers? It's probably about half and half. I don't even think of having a high hitting 5a as a disadvantage because there's lots of good stuff that comes with it I probably explained it wrong before. But anyway what i meant to say is that Mu doesn't seem to have reliable fast moves against some rushdown characters at close range (she can use her dp, but that can be easily baited because of it's low range and you can block it in the air without a barrier guard) small example Platinum > her 5a, 2b and 5b all splinter Mu at close and even at mid range. Hakumen> most of his close range normals are + on block Hazama > it's hazama ... Bang> his 5a does seem to outmash me at close range and he will get close with nails at some point Ragna > 5b, 5c : in fact most of his normals beat Mu at "close range" but then again his normals seem to beat everyone in the game "mashing" out of the pressure high mobility character like tao and valkenhayn can be unsafe as 2a and 2b doesn't seem to hit jumping or rather flying characters Edited April 12, 2013 by bakahyl
mAc Chaos Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 You shouldn't be "forced" to do 5A or 2A or 2B at close range, that's what those normals are for. That's like being forced to use 6A as an anti air.
Errol Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 I guess it's a question of where one character's weaknesses start or where one character's strengths begin. But I have to say that the idea that Mu's DP is anything less than one of the best DPs in the game is rather odd to me and being easy to bait is certainly new to me as well. It's unclear to me how not having to air barrier it really matters in any way, except that it would be pretty damn retarded if you had to air barrier it when she can do it in the air. WHich, o yea, you can do it in the air.. sheesh. It's the only DP I know of that cannot be safe jumped.. and if you hit it any time while it is active the hitbox extends out to fuck you up. Tsubaki 22d unblockable setups that eat Ragna's ID due to range lose to it.. etc etc...
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 (edited) I guess it's a question of where one character's weaknesses start or where one character's strengths begin. But I have to say that the idea that Mu's DP is anything less than one of the best DPs in the game is rather odd to me and being easy to bait is certainly new to me as well. It's unclear to me how not having to air barrier it really matters in any way, except that it would be pretty damn retarded if you had to air barrier it when she can do it in the air. I wasn't talking about as if it was like Hakumen Hotaru , which is an arial reversal/dp that needs to be barrier guarded in the air but her ground dp can be simply blocked without a barrier guard unlike almost every dp (well except Azreal's but we are talking about extend) Of course this disadvantage is minor, but some people forget to barrier guard against dp's in the air and will still get hit by it and by barrier guarding you will lose some frame advantage (more so in the air) and you will get more knockback. Some moves like Hazama's 236d>b or tsubaki's "dp" are probably not even punishable if you barrier block it in the air. It's the only DP I know of that cannot be safe jumped.. and if you hit it any time while it is active the hitbox extends out to fuck you up. Tsubaki 22d unblockable setups that eat Ragna's ID due to range lose to it.. etc etc... Well that's is probably the advantage of being a guard point move (one that stop unblockables and throws) instead of being simply invincible. But the disadvantage of being a guardpoint move seems to be that it will clashes more often even against moves even normals with no invincibility. Edited April 12, 2013 by bakahyl
mAc Chaos Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 The clashing is actually a bonus. It lets it not only clash with Hotaru but beat it.
YukiBlue Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 This thread is looking hell'a SRK right now. Let's keep it going, there's a lot of quality input here. I know Bakahyl already covered Mu, but I'm gonna do it too. Mu: Mu is a rather strange character. She isn't limited to a singular playstyle and due to that can be played in almost any fashion. Her offensive and defensive capabilities are substantial, and her neutral game is quite possibly the strongest in the game. Due to this versatility, you're rarely going to see the same Mu twice. Pro's: + Enormous damage numbers on CH. Quite possibly the hardest punishes in the game. + An incredible set of normals. Her C Moves are arguably some of the best in the game (See the trend?) + She has a DP. A Good DP. + Strong AA Game into big damage + Her most commaon starters are fairly quick + Strong Oki game + Commands Neutral + Strong "Trap" Game + Amazing backdash + Her Aerial Pokes > Your aerial pokes Cons: - Low Health - Fairly poor mixup - C Moves are fairly easy to whiff punish (GG's missing 6C) - Uhm. Did I miss any Cons? I'd recommend Mu to anyone that like a hard hitting strong zoning character, People keep confusing zoning with keepaway. Mu is a strong zoning character, you cannot disrespect her space all whilst she controls yours. Her j.C / 5C and 2B all do a great job of keeping her real estate insured. Though as I said, for any good player, there really isn't a specific way to play Mu. It's all in the player.
StarGazer Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 - Fairly poor mixup - C Moves are fairly easy to whiff punish (GG's missing 6C) I don't think her mix ups are weak, Its more like her offensive options are weak at long range. Her C move aren't more risky than other characters so thats can't be a cons no? ofc 6C is only one move
InWithTheAshes Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 Yup, only one move. It's still one of the riskiest moves in the game and, unlike other "risky" moves, missing it is pretty much a guaranteed FC punish for any attentive player. And, come now, I'd rather everybody admit that Mu's mixup sucks. She has two lows, one standing overhead, and a grab. That's it. That's pretty much the worst amount of mixup you can get without going to ridiculously poor levels. Mu's strong, yes, but she's definitely not without flaws, unlike what some people almost make her out to be.
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 I don't think her mix ups are weak, Its more like her offensive options are weak at long range. Her C move aren't more risky than other characters so thats can't be a cons no? ofc 6C is only one move Her only overhead can be used after 5a, 2a, (you can get mashed out or thrown out of during these 2 moves) 5b or 6a. Her poor jump in attack is one of the reasons for her poor mixups, because if she is going to use the jump cancel from 5b, 6a or 3c you are usually not going to hit crouching characters with your jumping attacks. If she has some kind of cover (totsuka, charged lasers or habakiri) then you can do some nice high or lows guessing games, but otherwise her mixups are not that good
YukiBlue Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 When someone gets blown up by a rouge 6C and they lose like 70% because of it damn right you're gonna think that character is broke as hell. I've lost 8K from 6C FC Before and it wasn't even optimal. But if you actually look past that damage, You'll realise that you only ate that damage because you fucked up hard.
Daedron Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 I wish I could punish people for fucking up hard, too bad I can't.
YukiBlue Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 With charge you can. It's not like you play the worst character in BB history with no options or damage mayn.
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 I wish I could punish people for fucking up hard, too bad I can't. You should play Tager, lol
Daedron Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 With charge you can. It's not like you play the worst character in BB history with no options or damage mayn. I know, I just like making everything seem worse than it really is. Though it's still bad either way. Tsubaki is still fun, TC!
bakahyl Posted April 12, 2013 Posted April 12, 2013 I know, I just like making everything seem worse than it really is. Though it's still bad either way. Tsubaki is still fun, TC! Atleast her bad matchups are not that bad compared to CT's Tager vs Carl (lol @ 2-8) , Tager vs Nu, Tager vs Arakune
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