[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[Ctrlaltwtf]

My opinion of the Guard Bar has always been "its a more gimmicky way of implementing damage proration." I personally feel it rewards mindless pressure a bit too much.

[Xtra_Zero]

My opinion of the Guard Bar has always been "its a more gimmicky way of implementing damage proration." I personally feel it rewards mindless pressure a bit too much.

If the pressure is mindless then the person being pressured won't be hit and it doesn't even come into effect.

[Destin]

Outside of like, eddie in #R, guilty gear doesn't have much mindless pressure that use the guard gauge.

Impossible dusts are called impossible because it's impossible to tech.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

If the pressure is mindless then the person being pressured won't be hit and it doesn't even come into effect.

Throwing out a whole bunch of mids while you've got them locked doesn't achieve anything, but it does increase the Guard Gauge. The more unnecessary hits, the better.

[Xtra_Zero]

Throwing out a whole bunch of mids while you've got them locked doesn't achieve anything, but it does increase the Guard Gauge. The more unnecessary hits, the better.

But it doesn't matter because a "whole bunch of mids" isn't going to hit in the first place. The guard gauge only matters if you hit.

[LeonD]

After rewatching the PV the 195th times, I'm worried about Ky's range: Why does his Fuuraiken looks so damn short in comparison with his old one? And why does his VP hitbox seems smaller?

[Ctrlaltwtf]

But it doesn't matter because a "whole bunch of mids" isn't going to hit in the first place. The guard gauge only matters if you hit.

I still just strikes me as a silly system. Why should you get any reward for failing to hit the opponent at all? I just personally prefer that people who are excellent blockers should get rewarded for blocking an entire huge sequence of pressure. Instead it seems like they just get put at a larger risk if they get hit.

[LeonD]

I still just strikes me as a silly system. Why should you get any reward for failing to hit the opponent at all? I just personally prefer that people who are excellent blockers should get rewarded for blocking an entire huge sequence of pressure. Instead it seems like they just get put at a larger risk if they get hit.

Cuz that's what set GG apart from other FGs, that's why barrier blocking and DAA exist lol, and that's why players should learn to know how to manage their tension.

[Tsak]

I still just strikes me as a silly system. Why should you get any reward for failing to hit the opponent at all? I just personally prefer that people who are excellent blockers should get rewarded for blocking an entire huge sequence of pressure. Instead it seems like they just get put at a larger risk if they get hit.

that's where things like instant block and faultless defense come into play. you draw them in with instant blocks while recovering faster and faultless pushes them away. you should be punishing your opponent for mindlessly spamming. only opponents that are doing effective pressure strings while usually using tension for frcs and RCs etc will be able to pressure without lots of holes in it.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

It's just a matter of preference. In GG you sacrifice your meter (in essence, your offensive capabilities) to be able to escape bad situations. In BB you have powerful, but limited defensive options that your opponent can begin to exploit if you rely on them too much. (Barrier Gauge/Guard Crush). I just prefer it when a FG makes a distinction between defensive an offensive options. In BB Barrier Block and Rapid Cancel draw upon two separate resources, in GG they both rely on Tension.

I really love the extra layer of mind games that comes from having only 1 guard bevel left in BB.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Vulcan422]

After rewatching the PV the 195th times, I'm worried about Ky's range: Why does his Fuuraiken looks so damn short in comparison with his old one? And why does his VP hitbox seems smaller?

Because it IS a new sword - "Magnolia Eclair II". Ky doesn't use Thunderseal anymore. He sacrificed it to put Dizzy in chrono-stasis. His sword in Overture might be the first version of Magnolia Eclair.

Best not to think about it too much until people get a hands-on demo of the game. You're over-analyzing a teaser trailer, which is only meant to show that the game exists and to provide us with hype footage.

[LeonD]

Because it IS a new sword - "Magnolia Eclair II". Ky doesn't use Thunderseal anymore. He sacrificed it to put Dizzy in chrono-stasis. His sword in Overture might be the first version of Magnolia Eclair.

Best not to think about it too much until people get a hands-on demo of the game. You're over-analyzing a teaser trailer, which is only meant to show that the game exists and to provide us with hype footage.

Thanx for the piece of info, I haven't read that clearly in this thread.

Also, that's just speculations, I'm not saying that this is confirmed. :I

[InWithTheAshes]

Personally, the guard bar always struck me as having two purposes: One to either reward you for pressuring well, and the other to punish your opponent, if your pressure wasn't particularly effective, for not escaping it sooner. I form this reasoning because, basically, there are almost no pressure sequences within the game which are both completely gapless and raise the bar towards a large amount, and I don't think any that raise it towards flashing levels without there already being some amount gathered. If you gain some powerful increase on your damage due towards it, you were either very effective at keeping your opponent defensive, or they were very shoddy at preventing you from doing so.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Outside of like, eddie in #R, guilty gear doesn't have much mindless pressure that use the guard gauge.

Impossible dusts are called impossible because it's impossible to tech.

I wasn't being literal, I'm just saying impossible dust combos weren't intended to be there when they were first implemented.

After rewatching the PV the 195th times, I'm worried about Ky's range: Why does his Fuuraiken looks so damn short in comparison with his old one? And why does his VP hitbox seems smaller?

Are you joking? For one, VP has an even WIDER hitbox which reaches further behind and lower down on his body.

Go look at VP in AC and a screenshot of VP in Xrd. In terms of overall range he looks fine to me though, Eclair/Fuuraiken seems to have as much range as the original games.

[Xtra_Zero]

Why should you get any reward for failing to hit the opponent at all? I just personally prefer that people who are excellent blockers should get rewarded for blocking an entire huge sequence of pressure. Instead it seems like they just get put at a larger risk if they get hit.

That's the whole point. You DON'T get any reward if you don't hit the opponent. The blocker escapes scot free! You still have to actually hit them for it to matter, and the opponent having a cranked guard meter doesn't make it any easier to hit them. They still have full power to block. If you compare that to BB, the opposite happens. If you block right in CT, you still lose guard libra and can be guard crushed. In CS, you can still lose guard primers and be guard crushed. In CP, same thing. In GG if you block right you can't get hit, regardless of your meter. Yes, the penalty for getting hit goes up, but if you want to avoid that because you aren't confident enough in your blocking skills you still have options.

This has all sorts of other effects too, like creating dire situations where you REALLY want to burst, discouraging turtling without making it entirely unviable, encouraging offense, giving more options for meter use, causing optimal combo variation even off of the same move on the same character in the same spot, and having a visual representation for hitstun decay. All very very good things imo. It's a fucking brilliant mechanic.

Also not rewarding players for landing blocked moves is silly. Giving players meter for whiffing moves/landing blocked moves has been a convention since SF2.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Also not rewarding players for landing blocked moves is silly. Giving players meter for whiffing moves/landing blocked moves has been a convention since SF2.

I suppose I should have worded it better. I meant rewarding players beyond the obvious reward of 1) meter 2) putting them in pressure and 3) potential + on certain attacks.

Put it this way: you do something that completely confuses your opponent. You outwit him and land a hit immediately do a combo and it's all good. But if you had poked him a couple of times first, then done it, you would've gotten more damage. That just seems weird to me. It's like you're encouraged to hit your opponent's guard rather than just hit your opponent. I'm just a fighter who prefers endless mind games and mix-ups as opposed to endless block strings/oki.

It could also simply be true that I think the Guard Bar is more relevant than it actually is to normal play.

Giving players meter for whiffing moves

Can you give me an example on that? I've never heard of that before.

Also, CT was imbalanced as hell and the Guard Libra was a hilariously bad idea.

"I smacked your guard a bunch of times! Therefore my guard is better!"

Edited May 25, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Kitsoru]

After rewatching the PV the 195th times, I'm worried about Ky's range: Why does his Fuuraiken looks so damn short in comparison with his old one? And why does his VP hitbox seems smaller?

It's already been explained- his sword isn't shorter, his left (canonwise..) arm is just extended further than his old sprite. Go look at the sprite comparisons and you'll see, the only differences in Ky's proportion are that and larger/broader shoulderpads.

[tataki]

I think GG's guard bar is still the best, most elegant "guard break" system in the genre and shouldn't be changed. With regular guard breaks you get no reward at all for pressuring until you get to a very specific point at the end, but with GG's guard bar you get a constant fair, rising reward from each hit you force the opponent to block, and it still demands you to land a real actual hit to make use of the reward. It probably won't be fitting for every game, but for Guilty Gear it's perfect as it is.

[Xtra_Zero]

I suppose I should have worded it better. I meant rewarding players beyond the obvious reward of 1) meter 2) putting them in pressure and 3) potential + on certain attacks.

Put it this way: you do something that completely confuses your opponent. You outwit him and land a hit immediately do a combo and it's all good. But if you had poked him a couple of times first, then done it, you would've gotten more damage. That just seems weird to me. It's like you're encouraged to hit your opponent's guard rather than just hit your opponent. I'm just a fighter who prefers endless mind games and mix-ups as opposed to endless block strings/oki.

It could also simply be true that I think the Guard Bar is more relevant than it actually is to normal play.

I think I understand where you're coming from a bit more now. I believe you're overestimating the extra damage the guard bar gives. Ask any GG player if they'd rather land a hit or have it blocked and the answer will be 100% of the time that they'd rather land the hit, despite the guard bar giving extra potential damage if they don't. Why? Because of all the things the opponent can do to screw up your blockstrings and because each hit that gets blocked pushes you further away so that if you DO land a hit, you have less of a chance to capitalize on it than you would have if you had hit them with the first move. It basically comes down to how important position and spacing are in the game. If you're point blank and have oki advantage, you are in a really good position. Having your opponent block your mixup might crank their guard bar, but it will push you away, making further opportunities to hit them far more difficult. It would be really risky to throw out something that's easy to block just to crank their bar because getting back in 9 times out of 10 is not worth the potential damage increase. In most cases, even if you are successful, your damage increase is going to be something like +15-30% at best. The guard bar depletes faster per hit when it's full too (compared to when it's emptying below neutral), so usually you only get 1 or 2 unscaled hits in. And then there's the fact that the bar returns to neutral instantly if it was below neutral when the opponent recovers, so really the more damaging solution is to just hit the opponent and then reset them.

So really you're setting up an unreasonable comparison here. It's not "Blockstring, Combo" vs "Combo" it's "Blockstring, Combo" vs "Combo, Combo" because you're giving up a mixup opportunity and thus a full combo opportunity to crank their bar instead of hit them, and then you're going to lose oki and positioning too before you get that second mixup opportunity. I'd take two combos from neutral guard over one combo with a cranked guard bar any day, even if I didn't have to get back in after the blockstring.

Can you give me an example on that? I've never heard of that before.

In most games, special moves (such as fireballs) give meter even if they whiff.

Also, CT was imbalanced as hell and the Guard Libra was a hilariously bad idea.

"I smacked your guard a bunch of times! Therefore my guard is better!"

It was pretty silly, but I found it way more engaging than CS's guard primers despite how broken it was.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Xtra_Zero

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Though implemented poorly, the Guard Libra is the most offensive version of guard breaking that BB has implemented to date. I would have much preferred it to have been tweaked instead of being outright replaced by Guard Primers and Crush Trigger, both of which appear to be faulty systems.

[SolxBaiken]

Crush Trigger ... appear to be faulty systems.

Really? It seems pretty solid; with only 1 option to guard crush neither player is rewarded/punished for blocking/aggressions, a perfect balance for the Barrier Gauge, practical applications outside of guard crush.

I'm interested in the faults.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Not going into too much detail (since we're technically off-topic), but the main flaw is that it's still based on individual character specials, which creates more room for imbalance (if you have a bad Crush Trigger, you get screwed over, if you have a really good one, you screw over everyone else). Also still can be defended against with Barrier for the cost of reducing Barrier bar, which is not necessarily the biggest punishment ever.

[SolxBaiken]

I think it's fairly on-topic as believing that their developments on BB will have no imposing on what directions they'd consider for Guilty Gear is probably lofty thinking.

Who has a "bad" Crush Trigger? And the only time I can see where that even comes into play is when using them for combos, as guard break tools, everyone seems equally viable, it's like saying everyone should have the same lows or overheads is it not? And loosing [large] chunks of Barrier is kind of a big deal since you lose arguably your best defensive option [susceptible to chip, can no longer jump [air block] safely, lose push block] and of course if you drain Barrier completely now you have to wait out a cool down, making the CT that much MORE dangerous.

[Narroo]

Not going into too much detail (since we're technically off-topic), but the main flaw is that it's still based on individual character specials, which creates more room for imbalance (if you have a bad Crush Trigger, you get screwed over, if you have a really good one, you screw over everyone else). Also still can be defended against with Barrier for the cost of reducing Barrier bar, which is not necessarily the biggest punishment ever.

So? What's wrong with everyone not having the same Crush trigger? It can be made up for in other ways.

[LeonD]

EVERYONE! Calm down with the discussion, they aren't gonna turn GG Xrd into BBCP!