[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[SolxBaiken]

Haha, no one is saying they will, but since we got on the topic of defensive systems, I found it interesting that Titanium Beast said there were flaws in what they came up with in CP, so I simply wanted to understand where he was coming from.

Again, GG may not become BB, but I'm sure developments made in their 6+ years in the series are going to go out the door. Xrd can literally become anything, so while we wait for more information I don't think breaking down what Arc have done in the past in attempts to make their games more accessible is a bad thing.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

So? What's wrong with everyone not having the same Crush trigger? It can be made up for in other ways.

That's assuming they actually try to make up for it in other ways. You're operating under the assumption that developers try to balance games in logical ways, when their track record for doing so is horrible.

What is (ultimately) wrong with a system like that is that it creates too many opportunities for the system to cause imbalance between characters. If you wanted it to be balanced out, you would have to make everyone's CT too weak (nobody uses CTs), or you'd have to make them all too strong (CT IS BROKEN YEARGH). What you have instead now is that some characters don't use their CT much at all, and the ones that do use it, it almost always seems to work out in their favor. This is especially evident with characters like Jin and Litchi, who appear to have really good CTs with long range. Compare that to say, Ragna, who has a really short ranged CT, which forces you to get right in their face to use it, but also leaves you susceptible to 2A mash since CTs are kinda slow.

Let's go back to Guard Libra for a moment. It's a pretty simple system: you block, the Libra gets pushed towards your opponent's side, if it goes all the way, bam, Guard Break. This is a classic style of guard break system, with one twist in that it doesn't return back to neutral by itself over time. This is part of what made it unbalanced, even though it was kind of logical because BB was designed to be a game based on neutral play and you weren't supposed to be able to force people to block for long periods of time (unfortunately it didn't quite turn out how they figured it would). What's better about this kind of system is that it's balanced more around a character's overall capabilities, as opposed to just one or two moves, so not only does that make it easier for more characters to utilize the system, but it also makes it easier to balance out how characters use it, since it's focused more around the character's overall offensive abilities. GG's Guard Balance works the same way, except that it's much fairer since you still have to actually land the hit to reap the benefits.

After Guard Libra got scrapped, we got Guard Primers. Here is where they started to go in the wrong direction. Now you can only use certain moves to get a Guard Break. This is harder to balance because it's very easy to make certain moves "too good" or "not good enough" for this purpose. So now it's more "fair" in that it's harder to guard break people, but it's also more "unfair" to an offensive character who might really benefit from being able to threaten with a guard break.

Now we have Crush Trigger. It's a universal (sort of) move that everyone has, that can cause an instant guard break, but costs meter. That sounds really good on paper, but again, it's harder to balance if you want everyone to have a unique Crush Trigger. It's too easy to give someone a CT that's too good/useful, or one that's just not good enough. That doesn't bode well for a system that's supposed to encourage offense, in a series that is known for being slow and focused on a lot of zoning and defense.

Who has a "bad" Crush Trigger? And the only time I can see where that even comes into play is when using them for combos, as guard break tools, everyone seems equally viable, it's like saying everyone should have the same lows or overheads is it not? And loosing [large] chunks of Barrier is kind of a big deal since you lose arguably your best defensive option [susceptible to chip, can no longer jump [air block] safely, lose push block] and of course if you drain Barrier completely now you have to wait out a cool down, making the CT that much MORE dangerous.

As I note above, Ragna doesn't have a particularly good Crush Trigger. It has short range and is not particularly fast. I suppose that could be seen as me playing favorites, but given the type of character he is, it makes no sense that he has a bad CT. Meanwhile some of the top characters have really good CTs, which may or may not make sense, given the strong options already available to them. But I would say that most characters don't have good CTs, which again, just points to how hard it is to balance a system like that.

As far as Barrier being important, how often do you see people straight up run out of Barrier in a match? It's not frequent at all from what I've seen. Just seems like losing 50% Barrier to a CT is only a big deal if you already use Barrier too much.

Mind you, I think CT is better than Guard Primers, so in that sense it's an improvement. But it's still a flawed system from the perspective of being encouraging to offensive play.

[Narroo]

That's assuming they actually try to make up for it in other ways. You're operating under the assumption that developers try to balance games in logical ways, when their track record for doing so is horrible.

What is (ultimately) wrong with a system like that is that it creates too many opportunities for the system to cause imbalance between characters. If you wanted it to be balanced out, you would have to make everyone's CT too weak (nobody uses CTs), or you'd have to make them all too strong (CT IS BROKEN YEARGH). What you have instead now is that some characters don't use their CT much at all, and the ones that do use it, it almost always seems to work out in their favor. This is especially evident with characters like Jin and Litchi, who appear to have really good CTs with long range. Compare that to say, Ragna, who has a really short ranged CT, which forces you to get right in their face to use it, but also leaves you susceptible to 2A mash since CTs are kinda slow.

Let's go back to Guard Libra for a moment. It's a pretty simple system: you block, the Libra gets pushed towards your opponent's side, if it goes all the way, bam, Guard Break. This is a classic style of guard break system, with one twist in that it doesn't return back to neutral by itself over time. This is part of what made it unbalanced, even though it was kind of logical because BB was designed to be a game based on neutral play and you weren't supposed to be able to force people to block for long periods of time (unfortunately it didn't quite turn out how they figured it would). What's better about this kind of system is that it's balanced more around a character's overall capabilities, as opposed to just one or two moves, so not only does that make it easier for more characters to utilize the system, but it also makes it easier to balance out how characters use it, since it's focused more around the character's overall offensive abilities. GG's Guard Balance works the same way, except that it's much fairer since you still have to actually land the hit to reap the benefits.

After Guard Libra got scrapped, we got Guard Primers. Here is where they started to go in the wrong direction. Now you can only use certain moves to get a Guard Break. This is harder to balance because it's very easy to make certain moves "too good" or "not good enough" for this purpose. So now it's more "fair" in that it's harder to guard break people, but it's also more "unfair" to an offensive character who might really benefit from being able to threaten with a guard break.

Now we have Crush Trigger. It's a universal (sort of) move that everyone has, that can cause an instant guard break, but costs meter. That sounds really good on paper, but again, it's harder to balance if you want everyone to have a unique Crush Trigger. It's too easy to give someone a CT that's too good/useful, or one that's just not good enough. That doesn't bode well for a system that's supposed to encourage offense, in a series that is known for being slow and focused on a lot of zoning and defense.

As I note above, Ragna doesn't have a particularly good Crush Trigger. It has short range and is not particularly fast. I suppose that could be seen as me playing favorites, but given the type of character he is, it makes no sense that he has a bad CT. Meanwhile some of the top characters have really good CTs, which may or may not make sense, given the strong options already available to them. But I would say that most characters don't have good CTs, which again, just points to how hard it is to balance a system like that.

As far as Barrier being important, how often do you see people straight up run out of Barrier in a match? It's not frequent at all from what I've seen. Just seems like losing 50% Barrier to a CT is only a big deal if you already use Barrier too much.

Mind you, I think CT is better than Guard Primers, so in that sense it's an improvement. But it's still a flawed system from the perspective of being encouraging to offensive play.

I understand what you're saying. But, the only real solution is to then homogenize the characters which I think is worse; I'd rather have balance patches and characters that excel at different aspects of the game, rather then everyone being somewhat similar.

As for Ragna; that's a good question. It's possible that they didn't want him to have a good Crush Trigger because he's rush-down oriented, so perhaps they thought it would be too much. That said, isn't his mix-up kinda mediocre? (Haven't been watching too many CP videos.)

[Digital Watches]

Honestly if you're going to have a guard crush system, it should just be a finite resource that every hit depletes to some extent and that refills while not blocking. Having it be tied to specific moves gets rid of the versatility of strings that can lead to a guard crush, while also adding an imbalanced aspect to the game by virtue of some characters' guard-crush moves being safer and easier to string into than others, and there being no alternative way to do it, meaning if you got a bad one you're out of luck. If everything does it to some extent, it means that while some characters will inevitably be better at crushing guard than others, there are at least ways to get around it if your kit is versatile enough, even if it means playing a bit suboptimally. If you're playing a strong pressure game as certain characters, you can stay pretty safe while still working toward an inevitable guard crush, forcing the opponent to either play stupidly and try to break out of solid pressure, or sit there and take a combo because they could do nothing about it. It's not like a mixup, because there's not really a way out of it that doesn't involve playing more stupidly (trying to break safe pressure), and it rewards persistence on the part of certain players, rather than being a mental game. It also just straight up means that in some matches, a guard crush will happen more often than a guard crush really should happen.

Having the resource not replenish means that you can do your safe pressure into your guard-breaking move, then back off and be safe again, knowing that if you just get them to block that every time you have the time to get your string started, eventually you will inevitably get a solid hit from the guard crush. It's really a lot like having an unblockable move that isn't slow enough that it really leaves a gap, has a respectable range, leads to a ton of damage, and basically doesn't really have the drawbacks we associate with unblockable moves. It feels like the designers were thinking "Well they can block it, that makes it okay!" But if that kind of move can have those properties, it can be part of a safe game, and thus is essentially a low-risk mechanism for getting (eventually) close-to-guaranteed damage.

I dislike guard crush systems in general. It's a way for rewarding offense that can take the onus off of the offense player to actually confuse the opponent in cases where it's safe to bring down the crush bar (even in games like MBAA, which I argue has a much better guard crush system). It may be hype when one player's blocking gets beaten and the other player gets their damage, but it's not that interesting as a game event as compared to them actually getting mixed up, like with a throw, or by getting baited into swinging, or with high-low game, or something like that, and the more the mechanic matters, the more it leads to a lot of pretty repetitive and nash-play situations in my opinion, especially among players who know what they're doing. I'm not saying games with guard crush systems are bad games, but it doesn't strike me as an interesting mechanic, and seems more like a way to artificially make matches seem more exciting to crowds.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Digital Watches

[Tong]

Crush Triggers should've been implemented as a buff, that gives guard break property to most, maybe all, moves (character then glows or some effect takes place to indicate he's into guard break mode. Course, can't last forever).

Of course, charging and meter would still be required (say, to perform you just need to hold the normal move).

And depending on which move, if would stagger for a fixed amount of time and deplete guard bar accordingly (would be bad if A moves staggered for a long time).

Edited May 25, 2013 by Tong

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I understand what you're saying. But, the only real solution is to then homogenize the characters which I think is worse; I'd rather have balance patches and characters that excel at different aspects of the game, rather then everyone being somewhat similar.

This is what I'm saying, which is why I think it's a flawed system. Don't homogenize the characters, just don't implement cruddy systems like this. If your game must have a guard break, do it in a way that doesn't create these types of problems.

As for Ragna; that's a good question. It's possible that they didn't want him to have a good Crush Trigger because he's rush-down oriented, so perhaps they thought it would be too much. That said, isn't his mix-up kinda mediocre? (Haven't been watching too many CP videos.)

The logic may have been that it was okay for him to have a short-range CT since he is a rushdown character, but as noted, his general ability to mix up without meter is pretty terrible, so he would have actually benefitted from having a good CT. Maybe not long range (since he already has good range and a long range GB move is kinda busted), but fast enough that he could set up situations where it would be very hard for the opponent to get away from it.

[Errol]

Speed of crush triggers is one thing they did make constant across all of the characters. I remember posting that all crush triggers were 30 frames in the rag forums before the mook came out, I think I got laughed at cause it's 'faster than 6b' or something. Certainly seems like crush triggers only play a role in certain characters' game, and I agree that it doesn't seem like the best system. Ragna's CT is at least +2. Makoto's CT is +/- 0, and there are even characters where the CT is negative. TBH just the static difference is something, without getting into stuff like certain characters having CT's that can be set up so they can't be mashed out, and duck back so they can't be DP'd, etc etc.

But all system mechanics are going to provide different bonuses to different characters. And it's usually going to end up seeming unfair because the top characters are probably going to benefit more from those system mechanics.

OD is totally character specific too. But then you also have universal systems like gold bursts, which strongly favor certain chars anyway (read: characters that can use reversal gold bursts to go into a 5k+ combo vs characters that can barely pull out 2k (Tsubaki))

so, it's all the same to me, and at least it isn't the shitty primer/burst system of EX.

[Hecatom]

This is what I'm saying, which is why I think it's a flawed system. Don't homogenize the characters, just don't implement cruddy systems like this. If your game must have a guard break, do it in a way that doesn't create these types of problems.

It doesn't matter what kind of system do you implement, you will always have characters that can take advantage of it better than others, on a simple GC system you will still have people who can guard crush better due their specials and normals and how they string toguether.

Imo there is nothing wrong on how they implemented the CT's on BBCP, not every character needs to exel at everything, this is a tool to give you an option but not make your whole strategy around it, characters like Ragna are still effective in their own gameplan, plus you need to keep in mind that not every char that doesn't use their CT's is because they are terrible, some characters simply have better uses on the long run for their metter.

Complaining about the effectiveness of the CT's between characters is like complaining why some characters normals sucks compared to others, or why some specials are better than others imo.

[The Loli Otaku]

Back on subject here guys.

[LeonD]

Back on subject here guys.

Finally, someone that cares about the thread...

Seriously guys, go start an other topic about GC and GL! GG Xrd doesn't have those things! (for now)

STOP discussing OFF-TOPIC stuff!

*inhale* *exhale*...Now, after watching the PV more than 200 times, I'm worried for Anji, Chipp and all of the buff chars in the game... (since steroid'ed Sol)

Edited May 26, 2013 by LeonD

[SolxBaiken]

It's clear you don't understand the reasoning behind the system breakdown...

I can guarantee you that when CT was first made, the entire board meeting was, "how do we make this GG but more accessible" something that arguably has never been achieved, now that they're making Xrd I can guarantee you the first topic was "how do we make this accessible but more GG?"

From the small interview with Ishiwatari-san there's only one thing we can say with 100% certainty at this point about Xrd; it can literally be anything. And so as we wait for more information we're breaking down what Arc System Works has done in the past with their mainstay games (BlazBlue, and arguably P4U) since then in an attempt to see what worked, what didn't, and why. The fact that BB has seen 3 iterations of defensive gauge system coinciding with each major release is quite astounding when GG has stayed rather consistent in it's systems ever since X (adding, never taking away). If BB is their attempt at making the game easier for newcomers, why has sticking with a system been so hard? Obviously their attempts with BB will be analyzed the same way we're doing here when it comes to making Xrd which could literally be a whole new game from AC+R, and quite possibly the "blueprints" for their titles going forward (much like how BB, and even bits of GG, served as firm groundwork P4U).

You can honestly only get so much from a 2min trailer that's, honestly, mostly graphics at this point. Also I find this constructive analysis and understanding of not just BB or GG, but fighters in general, highly enlightening. So long as we don't talk in circles like we were with the execution topic = w=

[TheRealBobMan]

Hey, I didn't play the story mode in Overture. Why is Dizzy sealed away?

Also... I-No... in this glorious 3D. I think we're all going to get STDs just from looking at her, if she's in the game. She's frozen too or something right?

[LeonD]

It's clear you don't understand the reasoning behind the system breakdown...

I can guarantee you that when CT was first made, the entire board meeting was, "how do we make this GG but more accessible" something that arguably has never been achieved, now that they're making Xrd I can guarantee you the first topic was "how do we make this accessible but more GG?"

From the small interview with Ishiwatari-san there's only one thing we can say with 100% certainty at this point about Xrd; it can literally be anything. And so as we wait for more information we're breaking down what Arc System Works has done in the past with their mainstay games (BlazBlue, and arguably P4U) since then in an attempt to see what worked, what didn't, and why. The fact that BB has seen 3 iterations of defensive gauge system coinciding with each major release is quite astounding when GG has stayed rather consistent in it's systems ever since X (adding, never taking away). If BB is their attempt at making the game easier for newcomers, why has sticking with a system been so hard? Obviously their attempts with BB will be analyzed the same way we're doing here when it comes to making Xrd which could literally be a whole new game from AC+R, and quite possibly the "blueprints" for their titles going forward (much like how BB, and even bits of GG, served as firm groundwork P4U).

You can honestly only get so much from a 2min trailer that's, honestly, mostly graphics at this point. Also I find this constructive analysis and understanding of not just BB or GG, but fighters in general, highly enlightening. So long as we don't talk in circles like we were with the execution topic = w=

So u guys r cool now or WAT?

*sigh* Let the discussion stop here, he should be able to understand it right now...

Or else, GO START AN OTHER THREAD, s'il vous plait!

It seems like u didn't get it, do u?

I'm trying to say this thread is for the announcement for GG Xrd and we can discuss stuffs about/revelant to GG, not that "wat will GG be like?" thing. If u said GG can be anything, why wouldn't u add SF or Marvel mechanics into it? The game has to keep its originality and, like I said before, FRCs, Guard Bar,etc. those will stay the same. Think this: if they remove the Guard Bar and replace it with, something like Guard Primers, u'll expect that's a Guilty Gear game?

I never agreed with Daisuke's "start from scratch" thing, I just said that they should change some of its aspect to simplify the game for the newcomers like easier inputs for move, and keep some of the advance tricks like Imp. Dust or FRCs, not changing the entire game.

You're right about one thing, but I disagree the rest of ur opinion.

PS: IMO, u should start a new thread call:"Wat will GG be like", so that this thread stays on its track.

Edited May 26, 2013 by LeonD

[Vulcan422]

Hey, I didn't play the story mode in Overture. Why is Dizzy sealed away?

Also... I-No... in this glorious 3D. I think we're all going to get STDs just from looking at her, if she's in the game. She's frozen too or something right?

Valentine has the ability to sublimate Gears, which IIRC translates to erasing them from existence, and Dizzy just so happened to be affected by this ability. Ky sacrificed his Thunderseal/Furaiken to save her life by freezing her in time.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I figured it was pretty off-topic, which is why I didn't want to elaborate all that much, but as usual, I let myself get sucked in. Sorry about that. Won't go any further on the subject, other than to say that Hecatom didn't get it and needs to go back and re-read what I said, since I already covered what he's talking about.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

There is no off-topic in this thread anymore. I'm not blaming anyone, especially seeing as I'm guilty of it just as much, because it's just human nature.

But, more to the point, this thread has long since outlived its purpose. It was originally about a trailer being released.

I personally think we should get a new thread for "GGXrd Hype/General Discussion" seeing as we finally have a new GG to get hype about.

I'm not trying to snub anyone here, I'm just expressing my view that the community definitely seems to have an appetite to discuss these things, so they should get a thread to discuss it in without feeling "off-topic."

Edited May 26, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[BladeOfJustice7]

I figured it was pretty off-topic, which is why I didn't want to elaborate all that much, but as usual, I let myself get sucked in. Sorry about that. Won't go any further on the subject, other than to say that Hecatom didn't get it and needs to go back and re-read what I said, since I already covered what he's talking about.

I actually enjoyed your posts though, very informative

I'm wondering if Ky's new 5d will have the same properties as testament's now, or will it have the properties of somethign like stun edge now, since it's basically a projectile. Sol's 5d also doesn't look like ass anymore.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

So... maybe we'll see throw rejects in GGXrd?

Also, still wondering if those 6P moves will remain the same. And I ask this because some of them were... just too fucking good for a lot of purposes. Abusing Ky's 6P as an antiair or as a clasher to deny certain overdrives (like those Tyrant Raves on wake up lol) is one of those forbidden pleasures in life

[4r5]

Daisuke grew up playing ST, so throws prob stay 1 button and zero startup. If they keep throwbreaks, I hope they do what ST does and not let you break throws that would have killed you.

Trailer shows Ky's 6P beating Sol's Fafnir. 6P's will prob remain a strong anti-air tool for many chars, if he continues with his ST influences. And a decent anti-poke tool for some. Question is, will the airthrow range nerfs be undone? Will Testament's 6P go back to not having any head or upperbody invul? (Will Slayer's 6P stop beating sweeps???)

Man, I miss Testament's old Gravedigger loops.

edit: oh, is that Niagara Falls in the background? lol

Edited May 26, 2013 by 4r5

[LeonD]

I'm so excited to see ABA's key, Bridget's yoyo and Axl's sickle!

Imagine 3D...

Btw, wat char would u like to see in the next PV?

Just curious.

Edited May 26, 2013 by LeonD

[R2ya]

I wonder if Robo Ky will have a ponytail too? Maybe a really obvious fake clip on.

[LeonD]

I wonder if Robo Ky will have a ponytail too? Maybe a really obvious fake clip on.

LOL XD

[Tong]

I wonder if Robo Ky will have a ponytail too? Maybe a really obvious fake clip on.

http://i.imgur.com/r3QdCBH.jpg

But I'm afraid they're not going to release all 24 character at once. Maybe 12~16 initially then steadily 2~4 per patch.

[LeonD]

http://i.imgur.com/r3QdCBH.jpg

But I'm afraid they're not going to release all 24 character at once. Maybe 12~16 initially then steadily 2~4 per patch.

Let just hope that we can see roboky ponytail in action! XD

[ElvenShadow]

Off topic but wtf is the point of posting something and then making it all black so that ppl have to highlight it to read it? It doesn't make what you say any "cooler" or some "big surprise!" It just makes it so that when ppl read your post on a smartphone they have no idea wtf you just posted lol

Sorry but I'm on a crowded train and hungover and agitated.

Btw to whoever asked about an example of games where whiffed normals build meter I guess you've never seen 3S matches where Chun and Ken sit back full screen whiffing normals over and over or Marvel 2 Storm flying around at the top of the screen screaming "Ha Ha ha!!!"