[CP] Kokonoe - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[someonewhodied]

So I've been foregoing real oki in favor of ice gun chip recently.

3C Ender>22B>5D>236C(Blocked)

 

You have enough time to 236D to push them away after and reset the situation to neutral if you are midscreen.

[HiguraShiki]

I'm just starting to try to pick up Kokonoe. What should I be trying to aim for most of the time? Like how should I normally approach my opponents offensively / defensively

[Iron Savior]

I'm just starting to try to pick up Kokonoe. What should I be trying to aim for most of the time? Like how should I normally approach my opponents offensively / defensively

Im just gonna copy some stuff from a previous post i made that might be relevant, basically: 2a has excellent range for its startup, 5c has very good range and leads to big damage on counterhit, and it is also very safe, 3c stops almost anything on the ground it it is properly spaced, but it is risky to use since the opponent can jump to avoid it, j.a and j.b have good reach, and j.a seems to be pretty infamous among Relius players, your drive gives you control of the screen, it attracts things to it, you can activate it to make stuff go flying in the opposite direction, you can launch fireballs to it, you can teleport to it with 22c

 

 

 

^i have no idea how to remove that quote, if it is visible, just assume i'm quoting myself

Some important normals

6a is an amazing anti-air, you can charge it, and you can confirms it into an air combo, 3c is a godly poke/footsie tool, just be careful since it can be easily avoided by jumping, 5c has very good range, and on CH it staggers, giving you plenty of time to follow up into a combo, 2c is + on block, fatal counters, and is very good as a frame trap, just be careful using it against people with good reversals, j.b and j.a are both good air normals, i don't know if j.b remains a good air poke with the nerfs to it, but it was in 1.0, and j.a is very fast, the first few hits are overheads, it has a lot of active frames(that you can extend by holding down the button), and can cancel from and into j.b, if you do  j.b>j.a close to the ground you can mess with your opponent since j.a is an overhead

That is what came to my mind at first, but just read her dustloop wiki page, and you should get an idea

 

Your drive is also very useful, it attracts stuff in the stage to its location, and you can do many antics with it, you can place it anywhere on the screen with a direction+d, http://www.dustloop...._Kokonoe_5D.png

 

By doing 236d with one out, it will drastically change the gravity to the opposite of what it was, in other words it sends stuff flying, depending on your spacing after activating one, many things can happen, for example, if your opponent was between you and the gravitron, they will end up in your face,with a one way ticket to an all you can eat mixup buffet, for some strange reason, most people don't block here, but some have hit me out of it by poking after the activation, so be careful

 

Your drive also attracts your 214a/b/c fireballs, something fun you can do is baiting your opponent with fireballs, i like launching one, them placing a 5d(gravitron next to you), you'd be surprised by the amount of people that hang themselves in this scenario by running into your fireball, if they don't run at you, you can send it forwards with 6d(forward graviton), and get a free blockstring or combo if it hits

 

You can also activate the gravitron to send the fireball flying, if you are lucky, it will hit your opponent, and its really satisfying whenever it happens

The fireball game is particularly interesting with Azrael, you can launch a fireball into a trajectory where it won't hit him to bait Growiler and make the Azrael feel really stupid

 

You also have an invulnerable teleport you activate with 22, due to the command, it is immune to cross ups, you can use it to go trough very obvious distortion drives, like when an Azrael tries to use Black Hawk Stinger with both weak points, and Koko has some really strong counter combos, so you are getting some juicy damage off that

If you have a gravitron placed, your teleport will move you to its location

You can use this to escape from the corner if your opponent is far away, place a 6d(forward gravitron), and react depending on what your opponent does, most try to chase you, and you can teleport to the gravitron, or do some fireball antics

http://www.dustloop....=Kokonoe_(BBCP)

 

You can also set traps on the field with 22b, they detonate whenever someone gets close, do some decent damage, and you can combo afterwards for about 3k-4k

These have many uses, you can use them after a knockdown midscreen with 3c, and be amazed at how many people hang themselves in this scenario too, you can jump and barrier to bait dps since it detonates whenever they get up, place a 6d(forward gravitron) if you think they will backroll and do some fireball antics, again you can get creative

Something to note is that if you hit someone with 2c while a trap is set, the following combo will do massive damage

You can also activate a gravitron to launch your opponent towards your trap like Tetsuwo does in this video

 

http://youtu.be/aJ4uie_-3To?t=25m50s

And 2a is a really good poke, 2a>basic string has won me a surprising number of games despite its small damage

Dunno how relevant it is to your request, but hope it helped, the full post is on page 14, and i only omitted some combos

Is there a way to spoiler thing on this site?, i'd like to compress my posts

 

[Rhythmic]

That reminds me

How are you supposed to oki Azrael?, is it a lost cause?

Midscreen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK-OnaqZhM4

If that's too complicated (it's not really), you can do just the jB 4B part to OS DP and backdash without doing the fuzzy. That's usually the two options Azrael go for midscreen. Otherwise just go for A bunker ender and set up your trap + graviton and play lame. Safejump timing on netplay can be troublesome and it's REALLY annoying to get DPed away when you should have safejumped it.

 

Corner instead of doing 236B>5C>22B>214A, you do 236B>5B>5C>22B>3C. This beats emergency tech growler/no tech/roll/emergency tech stand block/emergency tech sentinel dump. Emergency tech crouch block gives you one mixup. Delayed tech is a mixed bag, if you don't mash the 3C immediately after 22B and do it on reaction to the tech, 3C will always beat delayed wakeup>growler, but if you just mash the 3C out, delayed wakeup>growler SOMETIMES gets you out, it's an odd timing. Problem with not mashing 3C immediately is that this lets Az notech/roll out if he knows you're not going to 3C him. 236B>5B>5C>22B>3C>6B actually beats most delayed growler attempts too but sometimes one will get you out, I'm not sure exactly what's going on there.

 

 

So I've been foregoing real oki in favor of ice gun chip recently.

3C Ender>22B>5D>236C(Blocked)

 

You have enough time to 236D to push them away after and reset the situation to neutral if you are midscreen.

 

literally just why

[Pen_Ninja]

Because 300 damage worth of chip or barrier gauge is worth losing all of your oki. It's not like koko has a strong oki/mixup game anyway

[ReynTime180]

Because 300 damage worth of chip or barrier gauge is worth losing all of your oki. It's not like koko has a strong oki/mixup game anyway

Of course not, Koko's a shit character.

[ukyo_rulz]

So I've managed to get a lot better with Koko, but I have some follow-up questions:

1. What is a decent follow-up to 3C, super ball? The combo in challenge mode seems finicky.

2. What do people normally do after hitting Jin with 6B?

3. Is there a thread with details or discussion about black hole? I don't really get how it works.

[TD]

Ez good combos

A super ball

* 22b hits

3c ball 22b 8d *236d 6b 236b

B super ball

3c ball 6c j5d jb(1) 6a 22b 6a* 236d 6b 236b

Same for c ball.

From my experience ground combos that have 2c will be short on Jin outside of heat, close range or the corner. 6b 5c 2c whatever ender from there. Can combo mid screen if point blank when 2c is done, with 6c, but likely won't be a scenario with 6b. I would like to know if there is something else here as well.

Black hole is ez. Big unblockable ball center stage. Mid screen can be used sparingly as a sort of tech trap. Normal one can't be done in the corner, it won't connect at all and you will die. Or maybe not die, cuz kokonoe. Anyway, in the corner, OD cheap hole is super ez, just do it after an ender. You can do the tsujikawa combo (ez), or the hard one that involves actual black hole damage and proration bonus, it's hard as dicks though. Just do the ez one. And make sure they don't have a burst, though 50 heat for a burst is a fair trade and koko has a great neutral so

Mid screen OD hole is strong too cause it sucks hard. Tagers will cry and so will anyone without a good movement, but you don't get much from either blackhole mid screen except corner carry, which is good

[E3vE3 WAZ HEA]

Dunno if this has been found already but you can still cross up with teleport as a reset

 

5b 6a 5b 5c 3c(2) 6d 22c will have you teleport right behind them and cross them up on wake up, plus the probe out to do something like

 

5b 6a a bunker >stuff

 

only flaw i found is if they are too far and close to the probe after 6d you'll still be in front of them, but that shouldn't be a problem if you are starting it with a reset from 5b to 3c(2)

[TopTierTaite]

I've been taking baby steps with Kokonoe and I have pretty much the most BASIC combo ever down (5a,6a,5b,5c,3c,236a) with her and I usually just end with setting up graviton and usually throw out a flame ball to make them block so I can run up and throw them. So I'd like to know some more combos to work with (I've attempted to do a couple in the combo thread, but a couple of universal bnb combos to practice from easiest to hardest would be lovely if someone did that for me ^_^') and any other oki set ups besides graviton/flame ball and black hole. Also, why does nobody use Kokonoe's Black/Blue color?! It's so beautiful... ;_; I've also been watching mostly Jiyuna, Pain, LK, and sometimes Bananaken's Kokonoe. Any other suggestions?

[ukyo_rulz]

Black hole is ez. Big unblockable ball center stage. Mid screen can be used sparingly as a sort of tech trap. Normal one can't be done in the corner, it won't connect at all and you will die. Or maybe not die, cuz kokonoe. Anyway, in the corner, OD cheap hole is super ez, just do it after an ender. You can do the tsujikawa combo (ez), or the hard one that involves actual black hole damage and proration bonus, it's hard as dicks though. Just do the ez one. And make sure they don't have a burst, though 50 heat for a burst is a fair trade and koko has a great neutral so

 

What are the easy and difficult blackhole variants exactly? I've been searching here and googling around but haven't had any luck. I watched some videos of corner BH setups on youtube and I can do them but they have finicky timing. I play online so I need my setups to be as forgiving as possible in case of lag.

[Rhythmic]

I've been taking baby steps with Kokonoe and I have pretty much the most BASIC combo ever down (5a,6a,5b,5c,3c,236a) with her and I usually just end with setting up graviton and usually throw out a flame ball to make them block so I can run up and throw them. So I'd like to know some more combos to work with (I've attempted to do a couple in the combo thread, but a couple of universal bnb combos to practice from easiest to hardest would be lovely if someone did that for me ^_^') and any other oki set ups besides graviton/flame ball and black hole. Also, why does nobody use Kokonoe's Black/Blue color?! It's so beautiful... ;_; I've also been watching mostly Jiyuna, Pain, LK, and sometimes Bananaken's Kokonoe. Any other suggestions?

 

Just try the combo thread. After a few combos you'll notice that they tend to always lead to the same few combo routes and end up being pretty much the same combo with different starters. Skip the sideswitch combos at first if you don't want to be too overwhelmed. The combos with gravitons already up beforehand can be skipped too at first, they aren't the biggest priority and you can usually improvise something once you learn how they work from learning the other combos.

 

The most basic corner oki (which is what I think you're referring to) is xx > 236B > 5C > 22B > 214A.

 

Corner oki: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7006-cp-kokonoe-gameplay-discussion-discuss-videoscombosquestionsetc/page-15#entry811550

Midscreen oki: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7006-cp-kokonoe-gameplay-discussion-discuss-videoscombosquestionsetc/page-15#entry815804 + http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7006-cp-kokonoe-gameplay-discussion-discuss-videoscombosquestionsetc/page-15#entry815967

Azrael oki (midscreen and corner): http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7006-cp-kokonoe-gameplay-discussion-discuss-videoscombosquestionsetc/page-16#entry818008

 

 

What are the easy and difficult blackhole variants exactly? I've been searching here and googling around but haven't had any luck. I watched some videos of corner BH setups on youtube and I can do them but they have finicky timing. I play online so I need my setups to be as forgiving as possible in case of lag.

Corner:

xx > 236B > 5C > OD > 632146D. Easiest thing to do ever, requires almost no execution. Replace 5C with 5B against certain characters who can escape. I don't have the full list off the top of my head but for example Kokonoe with 50 meter can escape the 5C version with 214214C.

6B > 5C > 2C > 236B > 5B > 6[A] > j7B > jC > j9D > 236D > 22B > 5C > 214A > 5C > 632146D. Works off most good starters as long as you go into 5B > 6[A] early into the combo so they don't drop out for the rest.

 

The second one (non-OD) isn't used all that much. It's up to you to decide if you want to spend the 50 meter for it.

If you can go for the first one in the last round it's pretty much always a good idea. Some people feel like it's worth it to secure a first round victory too, some don't, decide for yourself how important your burst is to you.

 

Post-OD blackhole combo you should be going for is

22B > 3C > 6C > jC > jD > j236D > 6[A] > 22B > 5B > 5C > 6[A] > 5C > 2C > 236B > ender

Easy post-OD (and not OD, same combos) blackhole combos are in the combo thread. The 6A starter one is pretty easy.

 

Off a midscreen-to-corner 236B, you can be at a safe range to drop 22B and then go for black hole too. There are some actually midscreen ghetto setups but they are almost never worth it. I pretty much only ever go for black hole midscreen if I accidentally overdrived (late burst bait, dropped OD combo). It's not legit but it's so hard to get away from the OD black hole pull.

[Iron Savior]

I've been taking baby steps with Kokonoe and I have pretty much the most BASIC combo ever down (5a,6a,5b,5c,3c,236a) with her and I usually just end with setting up graviton and usually throw out a flame ball to make them block so I can run up and throw them. So I'd like to know some more combos to work with (I've attempted to do a couple in the combo thread, but a couple of universal bnb combos to practice from easiest to hardest would be lovely if someone did that for me ^_^') and any other oki set ups besides graviton/flame ball and black hole. Also, why does nobody use Kokonoe's Black/Blue color?! It's so beautiful... ;_; I've also been watching mostly Jiyuna, Pain, LK, and sometimes Bananaken's Kokonoe. Any other suggestions?

Here are the ones i use

First of all, 2c(also 6c) is your best normal combo-wise, it has the best follow ups, you can go into 2c if your opponent is crouching, and on CH on most b and c normals, and after 22b hits

Your best combos usually use 2c/6c>stuff, and you can generally apply them to a lot of situations

 

Midscreen

2C > 6C > jc > j.B(2) > j.C > j.6/9D > j.236D |> 66 > 6B(2) > 22A , 6B(2) > 236B

This one works off 22b, and close 2c hits 

 

2C > 5D > 5B > 5C > 236D , 6[A] > 22B , 5A > 5B > 6C > jc > j.B(2) > j.C > j.6/9D > j.236D |> 236B

Even tho the guide says close 2c, this one worked with far 2c in 1.0, if you can't time the 236b at the end, place a gravitron in a direction of your choice and launch a fireball, and i haven't tested if this one works off 22b, but if a 22b hits you should be able to run up and do the close one 

 

6B(2) > 5C > 2C > 5D > 5B > 5C > 236D , 6[A] > 22B , 5A > 5B , 6C > jc > j.C > j.9D > j.236D |> 236B

Same thing as the combo above, if you can't time the 236b at the end, you can.....

Also, i don't think it works on Jin

 

[AA] 6A > jc > j.B(2) > jc > j.B(2) > j.C > j.6/9D > j.236D |> 66 > 6B(2) > 22A , 6B(2) > 236B

This one also works from j.B

 

forward throw>8d, 2C>6C>jc>j.C>j.236D l>6B(2)>236B

This one does less damage than the ones on the combo page, but i find it easier to do

 

Backwards throw>7d>6c>j.8d>j.236d>l 6b(2)> 22a> 6b(2)> 236b

Same thing for this one, i just couldn't do the ones on the combo page, and the 7d is supposed to go away from your opponent

 

Note that you can replace 6b>236b for 6b>236c if you want more damage on some combos

 

Corner

 

c.2C > 6C > jc > j.C > j.D> j.C > j.236D |> [6A]>22b,  5B > 5C , 6[A] , 5C > 236B , 5C > 236C

If you are really close, the [6a]>22b>stuff will put you in the corner, and if you are anything like me you will probably drop the combo so i rarely use this one

 

2C > 5D > 5B > 236D , 6C > jc > j.C > j.D > j.236D |> 6B(2) > 236B , 5C > 236C

If you can't time the 236c at the end , like me, it will hit anyone who techs without a barrier, you can also use 22b for oki

 

Corner forward throw>9d, 5c > 2c> 6c> jc>j.C>j.236d l>6b>236b>5c>236c

 

Corner backwards throw>9d >sjc > j.B(2) >jc >j.b(2)>j.C>j.236d l> 6b(2)> 236b> 5c> 236c

Input the 9d towards the corner

 

For corner combos, you can replace any 5c> 236c enders(which are focused on damage), with 5c>22b enders, which are better for oki

 

An oki setup i like to use is: stuff>3c>22b>2a(beats rolls and delay tech IIRC)>5b>22c

You are supposed to do 22c really fast, so if 2a misses(probably due to a dp) and 5b doesn't come out, you will teleport away and bait Dps, just don't do it on Tager since his 50% meter dp hits behind him

If you aren't afraid of dps, do a delayed 22b, no one ever blocks it

[TR Manny Manito]

Hey guys im trying to find the kokonoe ice setups to try and understand it a lil. I saw Bananaken Use it and if im not mistake LK too. I want to have some more knowledge on that so i can better my game against her. Thanks in advance 

[Rhythmic]

Hey guys im trying to find the kokonoe ice setups to try and understand it a lil. I saw Bananaken Use it and if im not mistake LK too. I want to have some more knowledge on that so i can better my game against her. Thanks in advance 

 

xx > 236B > 5C > 236C > RC > 4D > forward jump > (when your character is behind the other character, still in the air) 236D > (land) 22B

 

From there you can do (assuming right corner):

2B for right low

TAP left and then 2B for left low

Jump j2c for right high

Left jump j2c for left high

Throw

[Iron Savior]

These are Kokonoe's loketest changes in 1.2 from what i hear
- j.A can't be held anymore.
- You float backwards after j.C (kind of like Carl's Alegretto)
- 6[A] > 22B > 5A doesn't combo anymore
- 6B (1) bounces
- 5B startup slower? - corner j.C > j.D > 236D doesn't work
- Seems to take a while to recover a Graviton stock after 236D.
- ground 236D > 6[A] still connects, after all.
- Graviton bar recovery rate seems reaaaaaally slow

[darklightjg1]

Wtf man. They gotta pile on other stuff along with a graviton nerf?

[Rhythmic]

- Seems to take a while to recover a Graviton stock after 236D.

- Graviton bar recovery rate seems reaaaaaally slow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2MfZBjNpI0

 

It takes 5 seconds after a graviton disappears by expiration/by Kokonoe getting hit before Kokonoe regains one stock.

After that it also takes 5 second per extra stock (as long as you don't use a graviton).

It takes around 8-9 seconds after a graviton disappears by activation before Kokonoe regains one stock.

Back to 5 seconds for the next stock as long as you don't use another graviton.

 

The OD black hole pull seems significantly weaker too just from watching the video, but it could be my imagination. Oh and 22C isn't invincible from frame 1 anymore.

 

They killed Kokonoe with the graviton change. I don't mind the rest, but her combos, neutral, pressure AND superior corner oki all use gravitons. Limit that to 9 with a ridiculous 5~9 seconds delay between stocks being regained and you get a mega gimped Kokonoe.

[Wild Candy]

I'm sure they'll adjust the recovery of Graviton Stocks for the next loctest. 

 

Sadly, it looks like their really discouraging using Activate in neutral.

 

Oh well, it's only the first loctest, so we won't know where stuff will go from here. I doubt she'll be the same as she is now. Plus, she still has some good hit boxes on her normals. 

[Ragnarok_F4]

With 9 stocks well played you can kill someone without much trouble (the majority of her combos uses 1 graviton and 1 activate). This change is probably to stop people from zoning with fireball and messing with the neutral of the rest of the cast for free. It is a huge nerf, but that alone will not make here unviable.

[Rhythmic]

With 9 stocks well played you can kill someone without much trouble (the majority of her combos uses 1 graviton and 1 activate). This is change is probably to stop people from zoning with fireball and messing with the neutral of the rest of the cast for free. It is a huge nerf, but that alone will not make here unviable.

Assuming you start the round and immediately hit the opponent, then combo, knockdown, hit again on the first try and then again and again... you get four 2 stock combos before you run out of stock. Just her good 6B combos take either 3 or 4 (depending on if you're doing 4D or 5D). So yes, assuming you're playing the worst opponent in the world and you don't need to play neutral, nothing is ever blocked so you don't need to use gravitons in blockstrings and he gets opened up by the mediocre 22B>214A oki every single time, 9 stocks is enough if you're doing basic combos.

 

In a real match, you're going to use them for all these scenarios, and with the current recovery rate you're never going to get one back, unless you're busy getting hit. Everything Kokonoe does involves using a graviton. If the solution is to never use gravitons outside of combos, then yes, she has been kneecapped.

[bakahyl]

Not sure if any Kokonoe players have noticed this

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2MfZBjNpI0&t=1m27s

 

Nu's j (?)d stops kokonoe's fireball completely

[FreshSelect]

Hey all,

 

I'm another relatively new Koko player whom has spent quite a while lurking on the boards here. I've started to feel like I have a rudimentary grasp of how to play her and am beginning to gear up for a more rigorous analysis of her gameplay to bring myself to the next level. If anyone would be willing, it'd be great to play some games against someone who knows much more about her than I do, so I could get a much more personal critique.

 

If anyone would be up to the task to play (and subsequently point) me and provide some feedback that'd be much appreciated! My handle is in my sig below.

 

Thanks!

[Ragnarok_F4]

Assuming you start the round and immediately hit the opponent, then combo, knockdown, hit again on the first try and then again and again... you get four 2 stock combos before you run out of stock. Just her good 6B combos take either 3 or 4 (depending on if you're doing 4D or 5D). So yes, assuming you're playing the worst opponent in the world and you don't need to play neutral, nothing is ever blocked so you don't need to use gravitons in blockstrings and he gets opened up by the mediocre 22B>214A oki every single time, 9 stocks is enough if you're doing basic combos.

 

In a real match, you're going to use them for all these scenarios, and with the current recovery rate you're never going to get one back, unless you're busy getting hit. Everything Kokonoe does involves using a graviton. If the solution is to never use gravitons outside of combos, then yes, she has been kneecapped.

 

There are still good combos from 6B like: 6B > 5C > 2C > 4D > 5B > 6A > 5B > 5C> 236A > 66 > 5B > 5C > 236B > 5C > 22B (or fireball). That deals like 3.2k with corner carry from exactly midscreen into corner setup (don't know if the combo still functions because of the other changes) and just used 1 graviton. I mean, yeah, it's not her optimal stuff from CP1.1, her neutral got nerfed hard, probably the one with most significant nerfs from the top 3, but she still has stuff to fight. Also, she deserved the nerf, she was still really strong. Probably we will have to depend more on the 22 traps if this change remains.

[Wild Candy]

So, I'm a complete scrub, and I have some questions about Kokonoe.

 

1.) What is my goal in neutral? How should I be using Fire balls to control space? When and how am I going to use Mines to keep my opponent afraid? Neutral is by far my weakest attribute when it comes to Kokonoe.

 

2.) What are common Kokonoe block strings? What her main tools to reset block strings? Is there anyway way to incorperate Gravitons and Fireballs In block strings?

 

3.) What are my main goals with Okizemi with Koknoe. Which tools should I use, and How should I progress from there?

 

Thanks reading.

 

Also, if anyone wants to help me practice via PSN or something. I'd really appreciate the help. I know NO kokonoe players right now. 

 

Alright, thanks for the help. And message me or send me a friend request or something if you want to chat a bit. I'd love to pick your brains about Kokonoe stuff.