[CP] Kokonoe - Gameplay Discussion (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[Ragnarok_F4]

Actually this is a bad habit a lot of Koko players have, any character with a 6f or less 5A can punish your for going into 22A, if you don't do anything after it you'll be safe from 6 framers, but be punished by 5 framers, against those you better go for jC for an overhead, sadly it won't work in 1.1 anymore.

 

That is good to know. Is there a better way to cancel 6B in 1.1 or is better doing anything?

[Maho]

In 1.1, 6B will be a lot riskier to do, the second hit is gone from lvl 5 to lvl 3 (the first hit is already lvl3 in 1.0) which makes 22A cancel bad with a 8f gap on normal hit, it also makes the move -6 on normal block and -9 on IB so doing nothing will be punishable by pretty much everyone.

Now there's the 5C and 3C chains but those won't be really safe if the oppoent as a reversal as there will be a gap between 6B and those two moves if the 6B gets IBed, of course you can cancel on first of second hit to mix things up a bit, but you'll still be at risk with the nerfs of 5C and 3C.

- 5C isn't jump cancelable anymore and is -5 on block, on IB there will be a gap with anything you can cancel into.

- 3C second hit being changed for lvl 2 makes it -4 on normal block, so most of the cast will punish you on IB, canceling into a 22B is bad with a 11f gap on normal block.

 

So against chracters with very fast reversals, 6B will be really risky to go for as you could get punish pretty much everytime on block, escaping a punish if it gets blocked will depend on your opponent not knowing/reacting, or you doing a hard read with a 22C cancel to avoid the punish, but that will get you killed even worse if he does nothing.

 

[Speakeasy]

So Kokonoe plays like Rachel? I'm not sure I understand what her game plan is. For example, at the start of a round, would it be smart to super jump away and deploy a graviton/fireball or try to score a knockdown and get some oki started? As a general guideline, how should I be playing (aggressively, patiently, etc)?

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[Ragnarok_F4]

I think that depends on how do you like to play. I'm really offensive so I'll probably rush everyone, lol. I've seen people starting with j2C with Kokonoe. If you know what the opponent is gonna do, maybe 3C, or maybe spacing out a bit and fireball or graviton (against tager or hakumen for example). Her air dashes are very good for getting in and out, and in 1.0 her j5B es great air to air. Try watching some matches, you can get some ideas from there for how to start the round too.

[tetora_desu]

So Kokonoe plays like Rachel? I'm not sure I understand what her game plan is. For example, at the start of a round, would it be smart to super jump away and deploy a graviton/fireball or try to score a knockdown and get some oki started? As a general guideline, how should I be playing (aggressively, patiently, etc)?

she plays like rachel alot. You should get some space, set your tools, and see what you can do with them.

 

Some matchups like Arakune and Amane need you to do this.

[BananaKun]

In 1.0 you just play to her strengths: ridiculous damage, setups, comeback potential, oppressive neutral, etc. Obviously, your gameplan changes from character to character, but she's really flexible.. just play her how you want.

 

In 1.1, due to the nerfs the focus seems to shift more towards complementing her (still) strong normals with traps/gravitons at all times. Increased graviton gauge consumption/recovery means overall she gets more use out of it over the course of a round assuming that summon/activate costs are the same. Even then, just keeping a graviton out will be worth it because landing a hit means you will recover way more of your gauge compared to before. She's not like Valk/Carl/etc. that will be penalized if they use up the entire gauge, and waiting a few seconds won't do her any harm if she has some traps out to buy some time.

 

For example: got a 5D or 6D out in the corner? Land a 3C and you get a full combo including 2C/6C, 22B, etc. Did they block it? That's fine, they're being kept in place by the graviton, and chances are they can't get close enough to punish. Even better, you could go into a max range blackhole setup as a combo ender. Doing optimal confirms starting off random hits with gravitons out can be very tricky though. Right now it's whatever since you can go into a blackhole reset and kill people regardless, but in 1.1 every little bit will count.

[Dime_x]

Sorry in advance for the stupid questions guys, but ill Introduce myself here and let my troubles be known:

Y'all can call me Dime, if you want to

Im a long time fighting game player but have only recently really gotten into airdashers (skullgirls is my main game, been playing it since the day it came out) im an ok player (top 32 at last years evo for sg)... Though that doesnt mean much tbqh since there were people there that didnt seem as if they could do a 3 chain. Anyways thats my "credentials" well along with the fact that ive been playing streetfighter since '91 and have played against many of the great streetfighter legends (which means absolutely nothing unless i was beating those legends which i was not)

Enough about me and sorry to have been so long winded... My questions:

Im having a hard time with kokos combos... The need to confirm crouch/ch/hit instead of just "hit" seems like it may be a bit to much for me... Im old after all and the reactions arent what they used to be, though I'm still pretty sharp at reacting to movement and stuff...but that doesnt help in crosuch confirms.

1.So how do i get better at crouch confirms? Is it just muscle memory? Just playing a lot? Is it even possible for an intermediate to do consistently? Or is it more based on anticipation?

2. Koko is getting that nerf stick. Id like to be able to learn her in a way that doesnt have me re learning a bunch of stuff. So ive already made a conscious decision to stay away from black hole setups. Is there anything else i should stay away from learning? Gatlings, combos, neutral technology... Whatever?

3. Knowing what to do with koko at neutral is kind of a pain right now. I think ive got the gist of what shes doing in general but i need more time... Or better yet, some solid info on what shes primarily looking to do. I know this varies per matchup to a certain extent... But I'm guessing that there are things that carry over... What are these things? An example with arakune (i used him for the month that i played vanilla BB on console back in the day) is that he generally wants to jump back and do an air cloud then base his non curse neutral on what type of cloud he gets. So basically his style could be said to be jump back and call cloud and curse the opponent then go crazy.

Does koko have a flowchart strategy like this that i could tailor my game to? Right now I'm trying stuff and my primary gameplan is kinda like arakune:

Jump back/dash back... Set 22 b trap, jump up and air fireball, then try and call gravitron where i think the opponent is going to be at and then rush in/teleport in while the opponent is locked down by the fireball. This has huge holes for it to countered before i ever get the fireball out so its imperative that the specials are mixed up as far as order being called out... But my question is... Am i on the right track with this pattern? or is this completely boo boo shit that will rarely work in a real game? And if it is completely boo boo shit... What should i be doing instead?

And finally, what should i be doing about people that try and rushdown my trap setup? All ive really got right now is j.2c spam... Is that any good or is there better stuff to do?

In the skullgirls forums we have "tips and tricks" threads for almost every character... It seems to me like these kinda reads could work really well for koko... Just randoms things such as gimmicks or weirdo crossups, instances of a move being able to beat out another one easily, good frame traps... Etc etc etc...just random tech...

Thanks to anyone that attempts to answer any of these questions. Every little bit helps and I'm just trying to save myself some time from trying to reinvent the wheel before i get a koko that is satisfactory.

[Pen_Ninja]

Well the absolute best thing to to would be to attend the weekly events that we run at ECU, like the one that was on yesterday.

I played quite a bit of Koko a while back and would be happy to help you out if you were there. This'll help you out a lot more than playing Brisbane online.

 

 

"1.So how do i get better at crouch confirms? Is it just muscle memory? Just playing a lot? Is it even possible for an intermediate to do consistently? Or is it more based on anticipation?"

 

This comes with time, I had trouble initially myself but eventually it just picks up. There's a lot of times you can assume crouching like when you hit with IOH j.C and such. I found those situations were good in-game training.

 

"2. Koko is getting that nerf stick. Id like to be able to learn her in a way that doesnt have me re learning a bunch of stuff. So ive already made a conscious decision to stay away from black hole setups. Is there anything else i should stay away from learning? Gatlings, combos, neutral technology... Whatever?"

 

This sounds like a terrible idea. I know you're fairly new to the game so the last thing you want to do is give yourself an artificial handicap and play your character like she's going to be in a different version. Imagine if you were playing vanilla SG and you knew that butt-slam assist was getting nerfed eventually... so you just didn't use it. You'd have a terrible time.

I suggest you learn the character as she is and adjust after patch. It's pretty easy if you know the character to some extent already. You're not learning a brand new character.

 

3. "Knowing what to do with koko at neutral is kind of a pain right now..."

 

For the most part, put stuff on screen and make people block it. She's got a lot of tools though and it mainly lets her play any matchup appropriately. Stuff zoners with 6D > 236D or keep rushdown at bay with 22B. You'll get an idea for the right balance before long.

In terms of keeping people off you, if you've got a 22B set then it'll still activate if you're blocking. If there's no 22B around then you're in the same boat as every other character, you need to block appropriately and jab/teleport/backdash/jump out/counter assault/super ball when the time is right.

[tetora_desu]

Can someone explain Kokonoe's activate situation in 1.1? I So she can't activate unless the opponent is in hitstun, yet i've seen players do it regardless.

[Maho]

It's just that activate doesn't have a hitbox if done when the opponent isn't in hitstun, but it will still push the opponent away from it.

[ReynTime180]

So how bad is kokonoe getting nerfed in 1.1? Will it make much of a difference to how she's played now? Or is she an entirely different character?

[tetora_desu]

So how bad is kokonoe getting nerfed in 1.1? Will it make much of a difference to how she's played now? Or is she an entirely different character?

It'll make a difference alright. No more dumb stuff. Not a new character at all though.

[Errol]

It'll make a difference alright. No more dumb stuff. Not a new character at all though.

 

lol. Yes it will make a difference. But she's still being recognized as the single best char and better believe that there is dumb stuff there.

[tetora_desu]

lol. Yes it will make a difference. But she's still being recognized as the single best char and better believe that there is dumb stuff there.

Well, of course there is dumb stuff. Which character DOESN'T have dumb stuff? I meant the majority of hers. (black hole, crossup, j.c, etc etc)

[Pen_Ninja]

Which character DOESN'T have dumb stuff?

 

Makoto T__T

[Kikirin]

Tsubaki QQ

[Maho]

lol. Yes it will make a difference. But she's still being recognized as the single best char and better believe that there is dumb stuff there.

Honeslty I think we have to wait more to say that for sure, I'll believe in that a bit more when arcade players start to block 6B and don't respect stuff that should get punished everytime like blockstrings with gravitons set in the middle.

 

Anyway for what's going to change, the main things are :

- you won't be able to use BH nearly as much.

- you won't be able to outzone all the cast thanks to activate, matchups against zoners will change a lot due to that.

- her mixups are easier to block, and a good bit of her okis are gone (meaties FBs, 1 hit freezes meterless).

- no more j2C spam, also have to think more during blockstrings, 5C and 3C can put you in a bad spot when blocked.

- you're gonna need meter to do damage a lot more.

[LitchiFayeBling]

I'm starting to pick up this character. I've been mostly getting by abusing her ridiculously good normals, but I need to add in traps/fireballs/gravs into my play. 

 

I like poking with 3c, but I'm pretty sure there's no meterless/ODless way to combo off of it without a grav on the field. When I do hit a 3c with a grav on the field though, what combo should I go into? I've really only learned combos where gravs weren't on the field.

[Loli Bacon]

I agree with Maho. Currently, players are letting her get away with too much stuff that is extremely punishable. We'll know for sure once people figure out how to properly play against her.

[tetora_desu]

TIL koko can use 214214C to escape black hole, cant believe ive never done that...

But yeah, kinda annoying people are creating tier lists already.

[Ayane]

TIL koko can use 214214C to escape black hole, cant believe ive never done that...

But yeah, kinda annoying people are creating tier lists already.

Uh she can use blackhole to escape blackhole as well... o.O.

 

For me I'm trying to play her as 1.1 as possible. Only using activate to mess up their positioning and doing the 1.1 combos Kurushii put in the combo thread. The problem I'm having is it seems like everytime I hit some one they are standing. Right now thats not a big deal. I get 2k+ or w/e off the 5B>6A loops. But after that patch that's lower and I don't think that's going to cut it. Does anybody have any advice for landing better hits? Or even just some meter combos? When I'm just rolling in the meter I will do ....>5C>3C>214214A>5D>236C and not sure if theres something better or I am just playing neutral wrong.

 

Also I'm thinking about not using gravitons outside of combos/oki so much because they often mess up my combos. Am I just placing them badly or what? Maybe I should be doing things like 6D>214A>214D once it gets the velocity from the gravi.

[Pen_Ninja]

Uh she can use blackhole to escape blackhole as well... o.O.

 

 

Perhaps more accurate in 1.1........

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Jr8soti5w

[E3vE3 WAZ HEA]

I've been messing with this character and think i found something...usefull(i hope)

5b 6a 5c 3c(2) a superball 5d 236c 3c(2) activate 6b(2) b bunker.

i'm still learning as i just got her but i found you can combo after 236c (full animation) if the gravitation thingy is still out. has this been done before???

[Pen_Ninja]

I've been messing with this character and think i found something...usefull(i hope)

5b 6a 5c 3c(2) a superball 5d 236c 3c(2) activate 6b(2) b bunker.

i'm still learning as i just got her but i found you can combo after 236c (full animation) if the gravitation thingy is still out. has this been done before???

 

Sounds pretty standard. I used to do similar way back when I played Koko...

There's a few situations though that make it not so commonly used.

 

- Optimal combos generally involve C superball > 2C > 6C > jc > j.C > j.6D > etc which do a fair bit of damage all up and these days I think end in ice oki.

 

- New players wont do the above but they also aren't aware that they can extend after the 236C.

 

- C superball near the corner isn't the best idea in case it goes off screen. Usually you can follow up 3C with 236A > 5A at that range though. If not, something like A superball > 4D > 236D is probably more optimal.

[tetora_desu]

She CANNOT escape black hole using black hole. Okay, she can escape it in a sense but youll still get punished.