Surf Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 5DC > 2DA route in action. He gets 4391 damage from CH 6DC currently but it 1.1 it'll drop down to 3661. CH 6DC in the corner is 5137 damage. Using Hikaru combo video for theory, new 6DC combo will probably do about 4.9-5k. From the video we can see we don't really need to worry about corner damage. It's the midscreen stuff that really hurts. 2DA change was probably his biggest nerf imo. It took out the very damaging and combo extending 46B after 2DA, 2DA is severely unsafe on block (he could at least frametrap or 5DA to keep himself safe before), optimal 2DA > 6DB > 64A route isn't possible because 6DB wont combo, 90% of his optimal midscreen combos involve 2DA > 46B. Just... a lot of shit. Sucks. But I guess in a way it's been regulated. He did a ton of damage off fat starters midscreen despite them being meterless.
Danke Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 In the current game if 6c was 2f faster he could most likely link it off of 3c crush trigger but with the new 3c knockback height that probably won't work. In the end yeah midscreen combos are probably wrecked damage wise but as long as they get corner carry I guess it's not the end of the world. More worried baout if 2da is actually super unsafe on block, if that's the case he's probably too bad offensively to get anything done.
Tomo009 Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 So does Kagura still have a high/low mixup game or are we forced to get really tricky with our mixups in 1.1?
Surf Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 His offense isn't botched. A orb was unchanged. It's still +4 (at thats at point blank) so orb pressure is still really good. It's always been good. The high/low mixup is still there but the reward has been mitigated. He did too much damage off starters that are more inclined to hit people more often than they should In the current game if 6c was 2f faster he could most likely link it off of 3c crush trigger but with the new 3c knockback height that probably won't work. In the end yeah midscreen combos are probably wrecked damage wise but as long as they get corner carry I guess it's not the end of the world. More worried baout if 2da is actually super unsafe on block, if that's the case he's probably too bad offensively to get anything done. It looks pretty unsafe to me
FatalCounter Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 First of all, I wanted to remember that 6C > 6DB still works, 2DA > 6DB works too and I saw them in a combo video, at least in the corner. 3C doesn't launch that low and remember all his drives are 3F faster now. That said, yesterday I tested a lot of combos without B orb after 2DA and they are really interesting. These for example will still work with less damage maybe - CH 6DC > 3C (not too low) > 5DA > 2DA > 6DA > 5B > 3C > 2DC > 5DC > 28C = 4453 dmg on big characters and - 100 on small chars. That is doable everywhere . If you are midscreen ......5B > 3C > 6DC > 2DC > B orb > 3C > 6DC > 2DB = ~4750 dmg. - 2C > 2DB > RC > 5DA > 2DA > 6DA ( these three drives will be the main combo route midscreen)> 5B > 3C > 2DC > 5DC > 28C = ~4830 dmg - 5B > 3C > CT > 3C > 5DA > 2DA > 6DA > 5B > 3C > 2DC > 5DC > 28C = ~4K dmg (I don't remember exactly) All these combos are midscreen and I tested with 6C after 2DB RC and CH 6DC, the proration is just bad and we get less damage. - CH 6DC > 6C > 6DA > 3C (high, for getting this you have to time 6DA to hit a bit high too. not easy) > 5DA > 2DA > 6DA> 5B > 3C doesn't connects .... Only possibility is just 5BB > jBC for less damage. Not interesting. Same thing happen if you do 6C > 3C > 3 A drives > 5B > 3C after 2DB RC. I also tested corner combos but they are pretty much the same as on combo videos.
Surf Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 I understand your going for max damage here, but why are pretty much all the combos ending in DP.
FatalCounter Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 You are right. I can understand for CH 6DC but why are you RCing if you are not going for max damage midscreen? Having them up there is also an oki especially vs Azael, Hakumen or some others who can easily get out of it.
Dazardz Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 2C is now amazing. Great startup(this is shorter, right?) and recovery, but I care more about it's recovery. It's recovery was just stupid before... I wonder if I'll still be able to get 6K in the corner with 50 meter and 2C CH. That damage in the middle of a game seemed to piss people off... I LOVED IT.
YukiBlue Posted March 26, 2014 Posted March 26, 2014 This, You should have believed me. I am an "Old" Fighting game player and a mathmaniac, I know how nerfs look like lol. I may take your statement as my profile signature if I find how to do it. This had me laughing for a good 15 minutes none stop
-Seo Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm23203498 You can link 5A from 6A in 1.1. Granted, I think this only works against Tager and Hakumen?
FatalCounter Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Hopefully it can chain into 2A which is 1F slower. That would give us like at least 2K combo. not bad at all.
Dazardz Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I haven't tried Hazama in CP, but he could combo off his 6A with 5A against Tager and Hakumen in CS2. 2A couldn't. Obviously this is a different game, but I feel like the same is gonna happen for Kagura.
Justice7541 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Well if 5A links now and they buffed the recovery on 6A (making it more +) 2A should work, unless they also reduced the hitstun somehow. It may even link into 5B if you're close enough since 5B is only 2f slower than 5A.
FatalCounter Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Well if 5A links now and they buffed the recovery on 6A (making it more +) 2A should work, unless they also reduced the hitstun somehow. It may even link into 5B if you're close enough since 5B is only 2f slower than 5A. Exactly the point I stated before. Please if it is linkable, we will have some fun with it. BTW that kagura player did a +4k dmg on Tager in the corner with that link, I was like O_O, OMG!!!!
FatalCounter Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 I don't know if we have all information on Kagura changes but I don't get something from his 6C change mentionned on Dustloop wiki. It is said 6C is now 22F, 1200 dmg and recovery decreased from 20 to 24. I don't get something about this last point, I thought it was blockstun changed from 20 > 24 and that would make sense since the move's blockstun is actually 20. And if it is actually recovery, it should be specified recovery decreased given that the current move recovery is 29. I would be glad if it is a recovery reduction, but I thought we have to get the right information.
Surf Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 It's supposed to be blockstun. 5C and 2C had blockstun nerfs. But 6C's was buffed. 5C went from 25-22, 2C went from 23-20, 6C went from 20-24. In terms of pressure 2C is and still will be inferior to 5C because 5C > 2DB would stop upback while 2C > 2DB would not. Those 2 frames made a big difference. I'm unsure wither 5C > 2DB will still stop upback due to the blockstun nerf. But 2DB's travel speed was increased so that may compensate for it. 5C > A orb is also really good. Not sure if it'll still be meaty at close range with the blockstun nerf either. 6C having more blockstun can allow 2DB to stop upback and more drive normals like 6DC/2DC to frametrap easier. But it's not like you can orb cancel after it, your pretty much limited to drive. They could upback/mash pretty much any of them free given how it is now. But the pushback they enter after 6C > Any D stance is real, which can further limit it's uses. The pushback seems like more than the other C normals
FatalCounter Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Thanks man, But don't forget that Drives cancels are faster now so 5C > 2DB will remain the same 6DC > 2DB will be even stronger because of that change. It may be a true blockstring now. We can hope, can't we?. However 5C into A orb may not as powerful as it was (it is) due to the blockstun nerf, that could only work if the frame advantage has been reduced, which I don't think. If 5C is -2 or -1 on block, that could but given all has decreased by -3, it should remain -4 on block. Anyway, I also wanted to know about something, 2C is cancellable into 5C on block but not a true blockstring. I was guessing if thanks to the 2C buff on recovery and frame advantage, it will become stronger or a blockstring. That would be godlike. I want to harass Ragna and Azrael far away from me.
Justice7541 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Thanks man, But don't forget that Drives cancels are faster now so 5C > 2DB will remain the same 6DC > 2DB will be even stronger because of that change. It was be a true blockstring now. We can hope, can't we?. However 5C into A orb may not as powerful as it was (it is) due to the blockstun nerf, that could only work if the frame advantage has been reduced, which I don't think. If 5C is -2 or -1 on block, that could but given all has decreased by -3, it should remain -4 on block. Anyway, I also wanted to know about something, 2C is cancellable into 5C on block but not a true blockstring. I was guessing if thanks to the 2C buff on recovery and frame advantage, it will become stronger or a blockstring. That would be godlike. I want to harass Ragna and Azrael far away from me. It would be weaker since it's a gatling, not a link. At least that's what I'd think just looking at the frame data.
Surf Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Thanks man, But don't forget that Drives cancels are faster now so 5C > 2DB will remain the same 6DC > 2DB will be even stronger because of that change. It was be a true blockstring now. We can hope, can't we?. However 5C into A orb may not as powerful as it was (it is) due to the blockstun nerf, that could only work if the frame advantage has been reduced, which I don't think. If 5C is -2 or -1 on block, that could but given all has decreased by -3, it should remain -4 on block. Anyway, I also wanted to know about something, 2C is cancellable into 5C on block but not a true blockstring. I was guessing if thanks to the 2C buff on recovery and frame advantage, it will become stronger or a blockstring. That would be godlike. I want to harass Ragna and Azrael far away from me. It's air stance that you can cancel faster, not ground ones.
FatalCounter Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 It's air stance that you can cancel faster, not ground ones. All drives can be cancelled 3F faster; Ground stances cancels changed from 17F to 14F and air stances from 8F to 5F. All these data has been published from day 1. If you forgot about them just go on dustloop Wiki and see BBCP 1.1 Change List.
Dazardz Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 It was be a true blockstring now. Well Kagura's blockstrings suck, and the orb blockstring can be beaten by multiple characters or jump outs. He needs better blockstrings. Or am I totally wrong? (I hope I'm wrong.)
FatalCounter Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I hate you Reaper, lol. Your quote focus on my english mistake. I won't even answer you. xD. That is what you get from not speaking your first language, damn!
Dazardz Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Sorry Uchiwa!!! Don't body me! My Amane is not ready! I'm hoping... Frame traps for mashers because we can now actaully start a stance followup quicker.
Surf Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 All drives can be cancelled 3F faster; Ground stances cancels changed from 17F to 14F and air stances from 8F to 5F. All these data has been published from day 1. If you forgot about them just go on dustloop Wiki and see BBCP 1.1 Change List. I looked over the wiki list twice and only saw the air stance change. My eyes usually scramble up when I look at column list like that so I honestly didnt see it. And I don't remember seeing it when the patch notes were first laid out. I see it now Well Kagura's blockstrings suck, and the orb blockstring can be beaten by multiple characters or jump outs. He needs better blockstrings. Or am I totally wrong? (I hope I'm wrong.) Orb pressure blows up upback. 5BB/5C/2C > A orb can all stop upback. And linking 2A/5B after they block orb can hit them out of jump startup. A orb is +4 at point blank and 2A/5B have 7 and 8 frames of startup respectively. And jump startup for everyone is 4 frames (except Arakune and Tager). Linking 2A after being +4 has you at a 3 frame difference. And jump start is 4 frames so it should blows them up everytime. 5B is 1 frame tighter and harder to link, as it hits them out of the very last frame of jump startup. But its a much better starter than 2A is. A string like 2A > 5B > 5C > A orb hits them meaty if they try to upback after the 5C. If they block it Kagura is left at around +12-15 because the A orb hits them so late during the animation from 5C's pushback. 6B is gapless and 3C hits them out of upback if they attempt it. When I do this string I always go into microdash 2B > 6B and confirm into 3C if I see them getting hit. If their not I sometimes jump cancel the 6B and do some air to ground pressure. Or do 2B > 5B(w) > microdash 5B to catch them trying to react to the 5B that just whiffed by pressing sometimes or trying to jump out But if they start clutching barrier he has a hard time maintaining the pressure despite being +4-5. I haven't made barrier specific strings for him yet. Heres a video showing some blockstring stuff I made my first month playing him. At the end was supposed to be A orb link into throw which is really good to use once they realize they cant upback after blocking A orb. But for some reason it was whiffing on the playback. Didn't feel like rerecording it
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