Chrono Phantasma Story Discussion [fun tentatively allowed again]

[Master Of Chaos]

Look carefully at that again. Like Rachel said in CS, It's not that he's destroying the world itself, per see, but rather the tight, unrelenting order that has a hold over it. The repeating time loops, team evil manipulating the system for their own goals without a care, the conditions that force everyone to live like they do, that's what being "The Destroyer," means, if we can take previous comments from the past games. (IE. Valkenhayn's conversation with Relius in EX that Rachel wants to free the world from it's pre-determined paths and give people freedom again and that Ragna and Noel are the ones who'll make it happen). 

[Zedar90]

Wait, doesn't that make Ragna a Chronophantasma as well?

 

 

We've heard a lot about how EVERY character seems to perceive him as "The Destroyer of the World", "World's Enemy", "Dark One" etc. Yet, despite systematically blowing up NOL branches (with good reason) he has not caused any of the so-called and predicted "World Ending". In fact, it's more like he's been inadvertently saving it. Even as the Black Beast, his acts are not voluntary during the Dark War or as clearly shown in BBCP's epilogue. If anything, it's Relius, Hazama, Izanami and Kokonoe that have the potential to bring the world to ruin far more imminently than Ragna himself.

Ragna could be counted as a type 2 Chronophantasma, during the time in the past at least. Maybe that's why it doesn't matter what he does unless he screws with a important thing(the Black Beast), the System can't see him, the world treats him like he doesn't exist.

 

The "Destroyer of the World" term is from the MCs, and as was said, it's more about making order into chaos than destroying the world.

[heavymetalmixer]

I just saw the first Episode of the Chrono Phantasma route

And I got a question: Who's Momokaka? Tao and Tora were talking about her, saying that she returned to the village from her journey and that she will leave it soon.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Chaoschao222
don't link to stuff ArcSys will get mad at.

[Zedar90]

I just saw the first Episode of the Chrono Phantasma route

And I got a question: Who's Momokaka? Tao and Tora were talking about her, saying that she returned to the village from her journey and that she will leave it soon.

A random kaka for the moment. She is one of the kaka clan's warrior. She is traveling around the world like Tora and Tao. Tao calls here Momo-nee(Big sis Momo).

[Speakeasy]

I just thought of a question. Izayoi is the prototype for the Murakumo Units, right? It's capable of killing an Observer, so it makes its wielder a very legitimate threat to the likes of Rachel. The only reason that Jin survives its finishing blow is because he has the Power of Order.

 

So do the Murakumo units have this ability too? It's never really mentioned. I want to assume they do, because Nu plays such a big role and Kokonoe brought back Lambda to fight Terumi in CS, but it could just be that the Murakumo units are mad OP. After all, I don't think we see Ragna actually beat Nu until the very end of CP's story.

 

I posted this here instead of the speculation/theories thread because I've only played Extend and Chronophantasma, so for all I know this was brought up and answered in Calamity Trigger or Continuum Shift at some point. Doesn't really seem speculation-y to me.

[Zedar90]

I just thought of a question. Izayoi is the prototype for the Murakumo Units, right? It's capable of killing an Observer, so it makes its wielder a very legitimate threat to the likes of Rachel. The only reason that Jin survives its finishing blow is because he has the Power of Order.

 

So do the Murakumo units have this ability too? It's never really mentioned. I want to assume they do, because Nu plays such a big role and Kokonoe brought back Lambda to fight Terumi in CS, but it could just be that the Murakumo units are mad OP. After all, I don't think we see Ragna actually beat Nu until the very end of CP's story.

 

I posted this here instead of the speculation/theories thread because I've only played Extend and Chronophantasma, so for all I know this was brought up and answered in Calamity Trigger or Continuum Shift at some point. Doesn't really seem speculation-y to me.

Izayoi is the newest weapon that was made with the technology used during the war against the Black Beast(or something very similar) thousands of years ago. And it's the prototype for the Murakumo that the Murakumo Units are using.

It has two known forms, the sealed armament(the shield towards observers) and Zero Type(the weapon against observers).

 

The Murakumo Units do have one thing similar to Izayoi, and that is that they are protected from Observers, they are immune to phenomena Intervention, which include the Master Unit's one as well.

The "Kusanagi" must have three abilities, 1, to find the Master Unit inside the boundary. 2, Be immune to it's power. 3, be able to destroy it.

[kylehyde]

Can someone explain to me how Ragna going back to year zero seals his fate? I don't get that part.

[Zedar90]

Can someone explain to me how Ragna going back to year zero seals his fate? I don't get that part.

Before Ragna goes back in time, there is a giant paradox/problem in the time-line, from where does "Bloodedge" come from. Due to this, the time-lines ae very loose and can be changed. When Ragna goes back in time, the paradox is solved, the "Bloodedge" has a origin and thus the time-lines becomes firm and can't be changed. In other words, the past can't be changed any more, and what will happen in the future will happen.

[kylehyde]

Before Ragna goes back in time, there is a giant paradox/problem in the time-line, from where does "Bloodedge" come from. Due to this, the time-lines ae very loose and can be changed. When Ragna goes back in time, the paradox is solved, the "Bloodedge" has a origin and thus the time-lines becomes firm and can't be changed. In other words, the past can't be changed any more, and what will happen in the future will happen.

Thanks that actually makes a lot of sense.

But one thing, in CS when Jubei tells Ragna about Bloodedge it's apparent Ragna has yet to travel back in time. So then the Ragna that Jubei is referring to is who? Just some random Ragna?

[Zedar90]

Thanks that actually makes a lot of sense.

But one thing, in CS when Jubei tells Ragna about Bloodedge it's apparent Ragna has yet to travel back in time. So then the Ragna that Jubei is referring to is who? Just some random Ragna?

While the Black Beast (Ragna + Nu) comes from the earlier phase (let's say, fall into the cauldron in phase 50 and appears in phase 51) Ragna got sent into phase 0 by Rachel, the very first phase. That's why there is such a big paradox. Where did Ragna come from. So the jacket Ragna has been given in all phases are CP Ragna's jacket.

[Luminos564]

Question: was it ever specified why it is necessary for a Black Beast to have both Ragna and V-13? Or rather an Azure and a Murakumo? I know they gave the explanation of one needing to be the "body" and the other "a heart" but, Ragna has the risk of becoming a Black Beast anyway on his own as shown in his CS Bad Ending and as of CP, Izanami can pretty much make him the equivalent to it (unless of course I am missing something and V-13 was used anyway). So again, why is V-13 needed for this anyway, if a similar result would be created in due time?

[D.R.F.]

She did attack him, if that means anything. she wants to fight ragna forever and ever too

[Zedar90]

Question: was it ever specified why it is necessary for a Black Beast to have both Ragna and V-13? Or rather an Azure and a Murakumo? I know they gave the explanation of one needing to be the "body" and the other "a heart" but, Ragna has the risk of becoming a Black Beast anyway on his own as shown in his CS Bad Ending and as of CP, Izanami can pretty much make him the equivalent to it (unless of course I am missing something and V-13 was used anyway). So again, why is V-13 needed for this anyway, if a similar result would be created in due time?

The Black Beast is when the fusion between a Azure Grimoire and a Murakumo Unit fails. It was never the desired result. The Black Beast is simply the Azure Grimoire going berserk and draining all souls it can touch while taking form of a monster.

 

It was one of the steps of creating Kusanagi, how ever since Noel was a Prime Field with the Azure inside of her she could temper without the need of an Azure Grimoire.

[Luminos564]

The Black Beast is when the fusion between a Azure Grimoire and a Murakumo Unit fails. It was never the desired result. The Black Beast is simply the Azure Grimoire going berserk and draining all souls it can touch while taking form of a monster.

 

It was one of the steps of creating Kusanagi, how ever since Noel was a Prime Field with the Azure inside of her she could temper without the need of an Azure Grimoire.

 

And yet, according to V-13 when she was presenting Noel's past to Ragna, Terumi himself wanted to be turned into a Black Beast. This is clearly contradictory to his claims during CS where he called it a "catastrophic failure" since Kusanagi is what he wanted, but if he knew that fact during the Dark War (no reason he shouldn't), there is no reason for him to want to be a Black Beast later in the future. Though, we're likely missing a vital piece of information on that end however, since not even V-13 knew why he'd want to do it.

[Zedar90]

And yet, according to V-13 when she was presenting Noel's past to Ragna, Terumi himself wanted to be turned into a Black Beast. This is clearly contradictory to his claims during CS where he called it a "catastrophic failure" since Kusanagi is what he wanted, but if he knew that fact during the Dark War (no reason he shouldn't), there is no reason for him to want to be a Black Beast later in the future. Though, we're likely missing a vital piece of information on that end however, since not even V-13 knew why he'd want to do it.

About Terumi wanting to become the Black Beast. First, it was the Sector Seven that tried to temper the Black Beast by using the method that Relius taught them. And Terumi(Hazama?) would be the body and Noel as the heart. But did Terumi really want to become a Black Beast? Even, as you said, Nu didn't know the reason why he would want to. Couldn't it be simply that Terumi tried to make Kusanagi while tricking the Sector Seven to think that they would make a Black Beast? Which failed due to Noel resisting the fusion due to having Saya's memories (who hates Terumi) and Takamagahara firing Take-mikazuchi on ibukido.

[kylehyde]

Speaking of Terumi, I just wanted to know because this always confuses me. If I'm not mistaken Hazama and Terumi are two different personalities I guess two different people. So the Hazama that Ragna has been dealing with all this time was just Hazama? Back in CS when he fought Terumi during the True End was that still Hazama or the CP Yuuki Terumi? I'm wondering because even during that time Hazama still sounds like Hazama and not like CP Yuuki Terumi.

 

I guess my question is who has Ragna been dealing with all this time? Hazama? or a mixture of both Hazama and Terumi. I'm speaking strictly of events before CP.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Both, Terumi wasn't separated from Hazama until CP; up until that point they were sharing a body and switched depending on who's dominant. Its why Ragna and Terumi seemingly know each other in their dialogues despite Terumi being separate from Hazama.

[mAc Chaos]

What was the whole point of having Noel observe him in CT then? I thought he was sealed until then or something. We even saw him in his ghost form, which we don't later on.

[Luminos564]

What was the whole point of having Noel observe him in CT then? I thought he was sealed until then or something. We even saw him in his ghost form, which we don't later on.

 

I can't really answer the latter portion, but as for Noel observing him, recall what she said. She called him "Dark Susano-Oh". Now recall what being observed as something usually entails. If Character X is observed as Character Y, then Character X is therefore seen as Character Y with all the power the latter had that comes with it by the system. If Terumi is seen as the "Dark Susano-Oh" then would he not get a massive power increase back to his days when he housed the unit in question, while at the same time not being bound by the Master Unit Amaterasu? The power is also dependent on the Observer in question. Someone like say Litchi is a terrible and weak Observer, while someone like Rachel is better (as seen with Haku-men) and Noel is pretty much King...err Queen Observer since she is the "Eye".

 

Least, that is how I understood it.

[Zedar90]

What was the whole point of having Noel observe him in CT then? I thought he was sealed until then or something. We even saw him in his ghost form, which we don't later on.

To "anchor" his existence onto the world, Before that, he barely existed thanks to Ragna and Kokonoe's hatred towards him and Takamagahara's observation of him.

Also his merge with Hazama isn't perfect. This is dialog about it from CS vol.1 novel:

 

Relius: It looks like your merge with the vessel isn't perfect.

Terumi: Tsk... you see that. That isn't fun.

Relius: I prepared that vessel. I can see the condition of the thing that I made.

... it is due to that magic. The remnants from the Mind Eater on your soul is hindering.

Terumi: You don't have to tell me, I know that...

Seriously, give me a break, that shitty bitch. It's such a persistent curse, just what one could expect from the Genius Witch Nine of the Six Heroes.

Well, it is how it is, nothing to do about it. It is a strange feeling, but it doesn't get in the way... But more importantly, Kagutsuchi.

[mAc Chaos]

So Noel observing him removed the remnants of the Mind Eater curse?

Was he already able to go into Terumi mode in CT? Because he only ever bothers to after being observed, and before that he's only seen separate as a ghost. Or did being observed merge them? I always figured he was cast out of Hazama's body before Noel observed him, or something like that. Except he still acts like Terumi in bits and pieces there too. But if Hazama's personality is supposed to be like Terumi's (which we learned from CP) that still works.

[Zedar90]

So Noel observing him removed the remnants of the Mind Eater curse?

Was he already able to go into Terumi mode in CT? Because he only ever bothers to after being observed, and before that he's only seen separate as a ghost. Or did being observed merge them? I always figured he was cast out of Hazama's body before Noel observed him, or something like that. Except he still acts like Terumi in bits and pieces there too. But if Hazama's personality is supposed to be like Terumi's (which we learned from CP) that still works.

No, that conversation is in CS, after the observation/recognition. It made the merge possible (or at least better) but the mind eater is still in the way. There wasn't a merge (or there was an even worse one) and that's why Terumi is free to move as a ghost in CT, but in CS he must be killed. Also, in the novels, Terumi was in his ghost form when he attacked the church (Man like a shadow, one eye and a red crescent moon shaped mouth that doesn't move).

And Hazama was never Terumi in CT, it wasn't until after the observation he went Terumi mode.

 

Terumi has been a ghost ever since Takamagahara released him from the boundary, they only released the ghost body.

[mAc Chaos]

I thought that too, but he shows up as actual Terumi (body and all) in Calamity Trigger Reconstruction during the Church burning scene...

> And Hazama was never Terumi in CT, it wasn't until after the observation he went Terumi mode.

So that was Kazuma all along? Because he always acted like he was just Terumi in disguise.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Yea, wasn't Terumi in his Hazama body when he attacked Ragna and Church?

[Zedar90]

Let's see. In CT, it was never shown or said how Terumi looked like. In Extend, it was this image (https://i.imgur.com/phDXceC.png). And in the LN of BBCT, he was described as his ghost form when he killed Celica, and in front of Ragna, it was always described as shadowy man. Also, Ragna never recognized Hazama, it wasn't until Terumi talked that Ragna knew it was Terumi. The same was for Celica, she recognized Terumi the very moment he talked.

 

It isn't clear, but Terumi complained about Celica's barrier that he couldn't get near since he didn't have a body.