TD Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 I suppose the thread is intended for factual gathering and specific information rather than more philosophical or opinionated discussions. The latter is pretty abstract or subjective. I admit that I haven't thought about the thread as the former so I suppose that's where the miscommunication is. I'm not quite sure how that's to be executed. I don't think anyone listing specific details is that shoddy. indeed this is a news and gameplay thread. for all intensive purposes you can call it the 'limited general thread', where we can only talk about bb. which is not a bad thing! but, as it is a general thread... we already have a news thread. this thread serves no meaningful purpose besides new loketest info. could we do without it? yes. we do have a chat room, after all. not that I want OR dont want this thread closed, I could care less, but there will be another created. how many times has dustloop been down this road already.
Nakkiel Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Excuse me. Do you play either of these two characters? Or this game, in fact? I have been playing rachel since bb existed and ragna has been one my most commonly played matches both on and offline. It is safe to say I have years of experience with this matchup, from ct all the way to cp. I can say with utmost confidence that this is a matchup that is only slightly in Rachel's favor. Can you? Or are you just agreeing with the masses? I can break this fucking matchup down to the fingernails if I have to, and I have no problem doing that even if it will take me awhile, explaining my point of view. Can you do that? Shit, if you can, I would love to hear it. I really would. Instead of doing shit like this, the -least- you could do is try to elaborate on why you disagree with what I have said. There is no reason to be condescending. I have ears (well eyes in this case) and am more than willing to listen (or see) you, jourdal, sg(?), or anyone else's thoughts regarding why they would disagree with me; and if I agree or disagree with any or all points made, i will say so and explain why. Respectfully. Let's not forget that this is a learning opportunity for everyone, not the beginning of a flame thread you mods try so hard to prevent. Now, your thoughts? I am willing to hear you guys out regarding the matter. NVM I'M STUPID
greatfernman Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Nah I don't play at all that guy who made top 8 at Evo and went to arc revolution was just someone using my name, sorry Maybe I wasn't even talking about you I don't think he was talking about you either. He quoted Anne
Nakkiel Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Then why quote me lol Oh never mind I'm dumb LOL
skd Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 I signed in after a really long time so that i could respond to this thread. First off, Myoro i dont think you have a good understanding of your character, or the implications of certain mechanics. I'll condense it into "Relius is extremely solid all around, and his mixup is /really far/ from sub par". When I reasonably think about how /safe/ his neutral control is (doll cover, recovery on ground normals) along with the risk/reward that results from this style of play, i can only feel like you dont understand the kinds of risks other characters really have to take in comparison. Further, I can, with confidence, say that relius getting damage primarily through frame traps and DP baiting is pretty off. I'd like to hear what you feel about his "weaknesses" especially in regards to other characters. Misconceptions aside, Sure, he might be a model that you desire for a "solid character". I can respect that, though i dont agree. Your idea of "strong, but not overbearingly strong" is just some kind of subjective measurement, so please treat it like one. TD, you "110%" agreed? I kind of chuckled. Kind of. Also, i dont think ragna vs rachel is quite even. Yes, I have tournament experience. Yes, ive played vs these characters in tournament settings. Yes, i think about things in the context of high level play lmao. Ill put it concisely, my feelings on the matchup are: the risk/reward in neutral doesn't really pan out. Ragna's hits shouldnt really be coming from mixup, pressure is alright, its hard for her to challenge but its difficult for ragna to actually get consistent, high damage unless rachel either makes a ton of mistakes, or just has bad defense. The risks he has to take during neutral usually outweigh hers, and the kind of reward(read: momentum) he gets compared to hers can be decent, but it usually isnt.
Errol Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 You wanted to be superadmin Anne. This is the fate you chose. Did I say something wrong? By saying in 1 bar netplay I meant it to be taken with the grain of salt that is 1bar netplay. The truth of it is that I don't have experience playing against any Relius offline or even in a good connection. The netplay Relius' are all 1bar to me.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 All of Relius' mixup options are basic. He just has safe access to all of them during pressure. Tick grabs, empty jumps, delayed air dashes, these aren't character specific to Relius. Most unique mixup options Relius has are unblockables, crossup j.2D, and corner fuzzy. Empty jumps/delayed air dashes require respect or high ignis burn (2000 IG for 2D). Anyway, saying his mixup is sub-par isn't an exaggeration, its the massive amount of opportunities he has for safe mixup. Sub par doesn't mean it doesn't work. Its not like you can't guess correctly.
skd Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 (edited) Wow, because its not like the risk/reward on an airdash mixup for other characters is bad! Its not like...you can option select jump most characters airdash mixups! Think about the kind of situations and break down situations where "mixups" happen. Why do they actually connect? what can i do about them? The actual high low mixup option of doing "airdash high low" isnt what makes his mixup so strong, its how he can mitigate other defensive options like buttons, backdashes, most importantly option selects forcing you into a situation where the mixup is ACTUALLY a high low instead of a situation where other options allow you to challenge it (all while retaining safety). You are right in saying he has safe access to it, but its a little more than just "safe". Edited September 23, 2014 by not_lunaris
Myoro Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 I signed in after a really long time so that i could respond to this thread. First off, Myoro i dont think you have a good understanding of your character, or the implications of certain mechanics. I'll condense it into "Relius is extremely solid all around, and his mixup is /really far/ from sub par". When I reasonably think about how /safe/ his neutral control is (doll cover, recovery on ground normals) along with the risk/reward that results from this style of play, i can only feel like you dont understand the kinds of risks other characters really have to take in comparison. Further, I can, with confidence, say that relius getting damage primarily through frame traps and DP baiting is pretty off. I'd like to hear what you feel about his "weaknesses" especially in regards to other characters. Misconceptions aside, Sure, he might be a model that you desire for a "solid character". I can respect that, though i dont agree. Your idea of "strong, but not overbearingly strong" is just some kind of subjective measurement, so please treat it like one. What you're describing is his pressure really. That safety is what puts him above the rest, because as long as he has Ignis out, he does what he wants with neigh impunity. HOWEVER, there is a clear difference between pressure and mix-up. What Relius does not have much of is mix-up, His mix-up options are the most obvious overhead in the world 6A, falling air normal vs empty jump>low, slow as sin unblockables, and cross-up air normals off of 663C>jump cancel. None of these are particularly overwhelming (Although with the addition of some 214B/2D gimmicks cross-up air normals can become a little more ambiguous.) Now here's the other rub, unlike many other characters, the longer Relius has you in his pressure, the more disadvantaged he becomes. at 10K IG he can do 2Combos + 2 IG okis, but with further pressure expenditures he has to relinquish those. With other characters, they gain resources through their less safe pressure (Namely heat, but others gain other favorable circumstances) and are given stronger mix-up tools as well. Once Relius loses Ignis he can ether force the opponent into an even easier to block blockstring yet infinitely riskier to gain resources and keep the opponent away from his bad defense, he can run for it, or he can accept fate and just block. In short, Relius is kinda a quantity of mix-up>quality of mix-up character. Important EDIT: Also yeah, that standard is subjective, but it's approximately where I'd want everyone to be ideally. I'm not claiming that it's the only way to want things or anything of that sort Also let's keep things civil guys.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Oh wow, Relius has strong pressure?! I never knew. Seriously, thank you for backing up what I said.
TeeJay Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Has anyone heard anything regarding air-throw hit-box adjustments or any other mechanic tweaks besides GCOD for 2.0?
NecroTheReaper Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 I'd hope so. I mean, I abuse the hell out of air throws, but teleporting crossup into someone's throw range is rage inducing. Also here a lot of Haku players talk about their magnet feet gettin grabbed out of a lotb ecause of air throw boxes
Myoro Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Oh my god This is the game they play. Wait wait wait. What's all of this. I'm at least being sincere here. I think Necro too. If there's something so obvious that these less than wordy responses are nessisary I'd like to know the whole story.
mAc Chaos Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 If people are going to just jump into the thread to try and blow it up then I'm going to delete their posts. Specifically, posts that don't have any substance and are just trying to stir things up. Because that's usually what happens, and then the thread gets locked.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 I may have been a bit sarcastic, but I'm not trying to insult anyone. Essentially what was going on was an argument between if pressure was mixup, which I believe personally is no.
mAc Chaos Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Nah, that was fine. I'm just getting in ahead of the game because usually these things can snowball.
heavymetalmixer Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 It's filling me with despair looking at you ( I think at least not_lunaris will get this joke) . . . all this talk leads to nowhere, just wait until October 9.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 Yeah, I guess as far as what's going to happen, regardless of your take on how mixup is, it doesn't matter in the end. If you can mixup, its mixup. Also, it doesn't have much to do with 2.0 which is what the big thing is everyone's worryin about. Also, sorry not-lunaris if I came on too much like an asshole just cuz my idea of mixup is different from yours.
Synyster17 Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 so does anyone know when the official change list will come out? it's close to the release and better b good cause i dont like new p4u
Myoro Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 so does anyone know when the official change list will come out? it's close to the release and better b good cause i dont like new p4u It'll prolly be a week or two after the release before all the changes are spotted. Keep in mind that they only did one loke, so there's bound to be bugs and unbalanced stuff, so we'll prolly end up with 2.1 by the time it hits consoles. As for if it'll be good or not? Well we're all hopeful! Shame you didn't get into P4A2, I'mma be picking it up soon when it comes to US stores.
Poultrygeist Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 You're gonna have to wait a couple of days after the arcade launch to even have an idea, there's no way every char is gonna have everything caught day 1. It will be a good start though I'd imagine.
Synyster17 Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 are u sure cause for 1.1 they released the changes early didn't they? i thought they would do somewhat the same for 2.0.
Myoro Posted September 23, 2014 Posted September 23, 2014 are u sure cause for 1.1 they released the changes early didn't they? i thought they would do somewhat the same for 2.0. Even if they do that, they always do seem to leave a couple things outta their change logs. (Or at least that's how it was for 1.1) As it is now they seem to be keeping hushed up about a lot, so we'll prolly just have to wait until October 9th
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