Nakkiel Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Alright, since Relius doesn't have good mixup because apparently protected high/lows aren't strong, I guess Litchi's mixup has never been very strong either!!! Covered airdash mixups are some of the strongest there will ever be in fighting games, so I'm absolutely baffled why you think Relius doesn't have excellent offensive options. He even has an extremely easy to use fuzzy guard.
TD Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Relius has had this same oppressive pressure schematic since extend and yet, he was considered low tier in that game even after being fleshed out before cp. it's not a system entirely new to the game. Many characters with a resource can do something similar to relius. Carl, rachel, litchi, all have a similar lockdown style. It's a part of the game and having to sit there and block while waiting for counter assault is nothing new. And it doesn't -necessarily- make the character insanely strong, though, as any strength should, it does help. I'm not seeing how this unbalances relius in particular, a strategy that has been around for ages already in many games. Under night inherently has this mechanic, gg is a very oppressive game, etc. even if relius was the only character in the game with lockdown, other character would have other strengths that make them powerful. Should this even have to be mentioned? The point, is that relius has weaknesses that work together with his strengths to make an overall balanced character. Yes, he has safe approach methods. Yes, he can keep you in pressure for awhile and potentially open you up. I would argue that the risk itself does not come from the neutral and instead from his offense and defense, since he has a very strong neutral game. Look at rachel, who also has an amazing neutral, a similar resource with similar strats to get the foe blocking. And she has the fastest overhead in the game. Guess what, pre cp she was considered only a tier in cs2 and she was mid low tier in extend. My point? Extended pressure does not break a character. It is the players responsibility to see through the constant jabs and block the uppercut. It is up to the same player to see when the opposition has run out of steam, and to utilize this time to go in. Lastly, the same player must do their research and see where the holes are. I can say for a fact that even relius having good airdash mixup, one of his most potent out of the limited array of -mixup- options he has, that there are holes between his strings if ib'd perfectly, which is usually only exploitable by a good dp. This is everything that has been said in so many different ways already, I don't even feel like posting this, but I think it needs to be known that there seems to be some miscommunication somewhere between everyone regarding this matter, because everyone is unknowingly agreeing with each other on this matter, and yet coming to different conclusions.
Diveman Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 You ARE going to get hit by something Relius does at some point, even if you have gdlk reactions he might just do a staggered string, you press a button, you get hit. We're not computers, we have tendencies as human beings and you can say "yeah just block and react to throws" all you want but in a tournament/casual match situation you won't be blocking 100% of the time. Hell people in SF4 get open'd up by empty jump low and there aren't even airdashes there
NecroTheReaper Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Eh... fuzzy setup ease is debatable, and its not like we're the ones saying its easy, its just what we've been told instant crossups, delayed IAD overheads, empty jump lows, empty jump throws, etc, are just so easy to block. You think we dont USE this mixup? Hell, 6A may be 26f, but we still USE it.
Nakkiel Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Fuzzy setup is not really debatable at all, if you have an ounce of execution it takes less than 30 minutes to get down. You're talking about how Relius is quantity > quality and that is whacked because his mixup is great, he has tons of options to use to open you up and they are nearly all effective.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Pfft, now I'm just gonna laugh. No, its not. Its easily droppable. Easilyd oable on certain characters like Az, Tag, Ragna, but your own damn character even RYO failed to do the fuzzy on twice.
TD Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 You ARE going to get hit by something Relius does at some point, even if you have gdlk reactions he might just do a staggered string, you press a button, you get hit. We're not computers, we have tendencies as human beings and you can say "yeah just block and react to throws" all you want but in a tournament/casual match situation you won't be blocking 100% of the time. Hell people in SF4 get open'd up by empty jump low and there aren't even airdashes there This is not even an argument. Of course any human, gdlk or not, has the potential to be opened up by him especially as time goes on and he keeps getting respect, forcibly or otherwise. No one is arguing this. It's just that while strong, people, from what I am gathering, seem to think relius is overwhelmingly powerful just because he has this, when he has weaknesses that do a great job counterbalancing this start should he fail. Because it is VERY possible and not out of the blue at all to block relius on full meter, whether that wants to be believed or not.
Myoro Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Alright, since Relius doesn't have good mixup because apparently protected high/lows aren't strong, I guess Litchi's mixup has never been very strong either!!! Covered airdash mixups are some of the strongest there will ever be in fighting games, so I'm absolutely baffled why you think Relius doesn't have excellent offensive options. He even has an extremely easy to use fuzzy guard. A little late to the fiesta there. Litchi's got a cancelable, subtle 22 frame overhead, so even without scary pressure she's got kinda fierce 50/50s. I did mention the Fuzzy quite a few times saying how it was really the exception. PS. Necro didn't say that thing, I did... You ARE going to get hit by something Relius does at some point, even if you have gdlk reactions he might just do a staggered string, you press a button, you get hit. We're not computers, we have tendencies as human beings and you can say "yeah just block and react to throws" all you want but in a tournament/casual match situation you won't be blocking 100% of the time. Hell people in SF4 get open'd up by empty jump low and there aren't even airdashes there I guess I just don't think of all the ways people screw themselves over while trying to escape my pressure as "My mix-up"
Nakkiel Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Here's some food for thought. If Relius didn't have powerful mixup options, why bother guessing to get out of his pressure before he reaches the point where he gets to mix you up? If players are killing themselves (even high level players try to get away) before Relius gets a mixup opportunity, isn't that telling of his mixups effectiveness? This is like basic common logic. :/ Litchi has a grounded 22 frame overhead, Relius has a 12 frame overhead fuzzy setup and a ~18-20f airborne overhead through airdash mixup. But yeah it sucks.
TD Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Here's some food for thought. If Relius didn't have powerful mixup options, why bother guessing to get out of his pressure before he reaches the point where he gets to mix you up? If players are killing themselves (even high level players try to get away) before Relius gets a mixup opportunity, isn't that telling of his mixups effectiveness? This is like basic common logic. :/ Litchi has a grounded 22 frame overhead, Relius has a 12 frame overhead fuzzy setup and a ~18-20f airborne overhead through airdash mixup. But yeah it sucks. Because once you're in you are trapped. The longer the mouse is trapped the less likely it is for him to escape without being mauled by the cat. Mixup plays a part in this but it is predominantly the strong pressure relius exudes that leads to the mixup opportunities. Why not try to get away when there is a chance to get away and possibly out yomi the relius, punishing him? Outside of the air dash mixup which needs a prior setup, a lot of what relius has is either filler to keep you blocking or just plain obvious. It is FAIR, because if you block it he can keep going, and if you don't, he could potentially have wasted enough of his meter to where he now has to do solo oki on you which is not nearly as effective. In every single match with relius, eventually, he will get to the point where he CANNOT use ignis while pressuring you. Guaranteed. It is a balance.
Nakkiel Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Please, I'm not even implying it's unbalanced. Lol. I want the entire BB cast to be closer to the strength of 1.1 top tiers. My point is his mixup is objectively powerful and it augments his pressure to the point where it's terrifying to sit there and block it for any amount of extended time EVEN knowing it will eventually be forced to end. I understand how the character works, I've /played/ RYO, I study this game, lol.
NecroTheReaper Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Can we be done? We've been going on for HOURS because someone said "I heard Relius is the pinnacle of balance".
BoltofShadow Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I'm with Necro here, i'm honestly sick of reading all of this shit.
BlackYakuzu94 Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 This is thread is seriously making me cry. Can we please change the subject, I didn't know these were the Relius forums :V
NecroTheReaper Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I stopped arguing a bit ago. The reason why I disagree with what you said about the fuzzy is cuz RYO drops it frequently and Lich has it in his Relius guide as "very difficult to impossible".
Nakkiel Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Something being difficult on a handful of characters due to hitboxes does not make it hard to do vs the rest of the cast. Litchi fuzzy doesn't work on some characters and it's more difficult to use on others but I would never DREAM of saying it's hard to do as a general statement.
Lich Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Whoa whoa now don't just be quoting me like that, especially when I don't know if it says very difficult to impossible anywhere in my guide at any point. I definitely only said it was difficult on certain characters, but on characters that it can work reliably on it's super free haha. You know you just have to know the match-up. Anyway, I'm just gonna put in my two cents here. I don't have time to write a book, but if you think Relius' mix-up sucks you probably don't know how to offend, or just auto-pilot mad hard. The character is well designed I feel for sure, but he's definitely strong and his mix-up is definitely very strong. I don't know any players who can realistically block me on full meter besides skd, tochigon and maybe two others. These players are also extremely well versed in the match-up so, and I definitely never feel like 'wow I can't open this guy up' he just guessed right in that string.
shtkn Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 If you don't think protected high /low is good... Then Narukami and Chie vortexes in p4u1 should be easy to block and escape correct? They only make you block 1-2 hits from the persona versus Relius' multiple doll hits Sent from my phone
TD Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Please, I'm not even implying it's unbalanced. Lol. I want the entire BB cast to be closer to the strength of 1.1 top tiers. My point is his mixup is objectively powerful and it augments his pressure to the point where it's terrifying to sit there and block it for any amount of extended time EVEN knowing it will eventually be forced to end. I understand how the character works, I've /played/ RYO, I study this game, lol. Oh. Well, my argument was never that his mixup wasn't strong (or at least viable), and yours isn't that the character is unbalanced, so I don't think that is done with. Even still, I think his mixup is only decent at best. It's not the best in the game by any means, and it is in a time. It has a safe, slight ambiguity about the air dash pressure, and that's all he has going there that is potent. Having one good option doesn't mean the character is bad at all (rachel ja), so this isn't a bad thing. Technically, the only character with completely nonexistent mixup regarding high/low is amane. Anyone who has a resource that allows them to keep going safely in pressure should have good mixup in the sense that it has to be blocked no question - but again, this is nothing new. This has been going on for quite a bit, everyone thinks everyone is dumb, there really is no point of influence or learning or progress being made here and I predict that there will not be even if this is continued, so I am finished my piece. You guys have fun.
Myoro Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Well my argument was that his mix-up was weak, but I guess I didn't have mix-up well defined then. And enough things I've been unaware of have come to light about the character I play more than any other, to the point where I definitely need to sort out the facts and reconsider my own stance on things. I'll concede that I was wrong or whatever makes everyone happy and move on. For me at least this hasn't been a waste of time, I've gained an immense amount of invaluable insight, and I've learned of a couple hither to unknown things about my Relius, so thanks everyone for putting up with me and discussing this to a level where I can begin to understand. I'd say we've accomplished the "Gameplay Discussion" part quite well, as much as a headache as it's probably been for everyone else here. EDIT: So the next big question is what do we talk about next? or should we just wait idly for CP2.0 news?
NecroTheReaper Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 I meant to say some characters Lich, my bad. Just that very last sentence in your guide under the fuzzy. But anyway, for someone just being curious as to why they hear that Relius is well rounded enough to be strong but not OP, this turned into a huge thing. Can we get back to being paranoid about 2.0?
Anne Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Can we get back to being paranoid about 2.0?Actually no, because lately that's just been complaining and wild speculation and bullshit.
chzchan Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Can we be done? We've been going on for HOURS because someone said "I heard Relius is the pinnacle of balance". Oh shit I'm actually really sorry about that if that was where all this started. I wasn't even posting my own opinion there, just something I hear thrown around by word of mouth at locals and other forums/message boards. I shouldn't have even posted it. Really really sorry.
Myoro Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 Oh shit I'm actually really sorry about that if that was where all this started. I wasn't even posting my own opinion there, just something I hear thrown around by word of mouth at locals and other forums/message boards. I shouldn't have even posted it. Really really sorry. S'not your fault, It's mostly mine. You said a thing, I snagged on and turned it into a discussion. But heck, I'll take credit for it. I learned way more from each post than another 5 pages of this: Fahk makoto being nerfed again ima switch to dat hazumaz for 5k od houtenjinz would have ever given me.
Recommended Posts