[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion v.2 (Discuss Videos/Combos/Questions/etc.)

[Warhound]

Wait, why does the Sentinel input need a TK to it, why not 66214C?

 

Also, I wanted to know why you guys think people refer to Azrael as a top tier "S" character. And why apparently people think he's braindead, which I think he's the opposite, not as ridiculous as Carl or Amane but still has his own issues to work around. It's like people think we control a teleporting Ragna or something.

[Lucalibur]

Because forward dash is not special cancellable, so we have to cancel the jump cancel into a special before the jump actually comes out. I wish they made forward dash special cancellable tbh.

 

I think Azrael is a top A character but I have a hard time considering him S tier due to how many problematic matchups he has.

[RentalBlackout]

I think to say that Azrael is quite a high tiered character is not without reason. That said however, you can't play him at a reasonable level while leaving autopilot on. I feel that while it's true he has really good tools and while they are potent, he still has his weaknesses and I'm pretty sure there is an answer to everything he possesses. People who say he's a brain-dead character are probably referring to his combos(BnB aren't really that difficult to execute, though advanced ones are certainly harder).

For one, his neutral game isn't a simple walk in the park. Yes, once he gets close to you it's pretty scary what he can do but getting there is not really as easy as people think it is, especially against people who know how to zone and block properly. Gustaf is good but good players know what to do against it. You can't simply instant air dash in all the time, people who catch on will be looking to be on point with anti-airs. Forward dashing is great and all but it doesn't really have much invulnerability. If you don't understand how to play the neutral game then you're bound to get blown up for it against good players.

Maybe Dash TK Sentinel really is that good, that change alone could warrant him being in S tier, especially since the other high tiered characters mainly got nerfs. It's not unmanageable but it's not exactly the easiest thing to deal with for all characters.

I can see him being S tier, but we really need one of those tier lists that's dictated by match ups. Eventhub's community match up list is pretty laughable at times(Azrael 6-4 Carl, really?) so no I don't mean that.

[Warhound]

I've several people saying that Az is just "mash whatever and win". This is GameFAQs we're talking about here, but even still, those people seem to think that we can just throw out whatever we want and succeed, when it really takes one IB and a jab to turn the pressure over to their favor, should the Az player start getting predictable.

[Raziul]

I've several people saying that Az is just "mash whatever and win". This is GameFAQs we're talking about here, but even still, those people seem to think that we can just throw out whatever we want and succeed, when it really takes one IB and a jab to turn the pressure over to their favor, should the Az player start getting predictable.

 

That's all I usually have to do with my Az when I fight green squares.

 

Azrael can be a lot like Hakumen. He's very powerful in low tier play, but gets considerably harder to play at higher levels when your opponent knows what they're doing.

 

PS - Nerf that backdash invinc into the ground please.

[Yuhoke]

For the first j.C I just do it while Az is rising. I don't do it instantly but it is well before the height of the jump.

 

After the airdash just do the second j.C when Az is clearly on the other side of the character so that he turns around for the j.C.  You can't really do it too early as long as Azrael does it in the right direction since j.C with Hornet active has like forever hitstun.

 

 

You can't be too close to your opponent when you hit them with Hornet or you can't get the second j.C to connect in time.

All right thanks guys, I think I've got it down pretty consistently now. Oh and you can do the combo even if you do Hornet point blank close, just do j.B>j.C>AD>j.C>236D

[Verimeloni]

All right thanks guys, I think I've got it down pretty consistently now. Oh and you can do the combo even if you do Hornet point blank close, just do j.B>j.C>AD>j.C>236D

That's cool, thanks. I'm pretty sure that combo can be optimized damage-wise further with doing 5B > 2C > 6D > TCL after Valiant, have to test it out. Using Valiant or Hornet early does tend to cut combos short tho.

 

About tiers, Azrael has the best damage of the whole cast (you can argue if Hakumen's is better but he needs heat to do combos while Az needs weakpoints) combined with awesome corner-carry -potential. He can pretty much always confirm his close range normals into 2-4k combos depending if you have a weakpoint already applied or not. The reasonable downside is that because he uses links it's sometimes easy to miss confirms and his combos have a certain rhythm to them, making them somewhat easier to interrupt with IB or reversals. Plus because he's deadly up close he's useless at long range.

[LegendaryRath]

Azrael has consistently high damage, but is far from having the best damage in the game. Hakumen, Kononoe, Hazama, Kagura, just to name a few. We're definitely up there though.

[LordSpectreX]

Azrael also requires some pretense of skill in order to beat his weaknesses. Things like option selecting backdash and reacting to it. Knowing the blind spot in his 2C. IBing Gustaf to make it negative. Understanding the dead spot of Azrael's 5A and 5B where the other person's version of that move will win, spacing out Growler so it's hard to use as a reversal, be patient and just zone him out etc etc. Whereas a weakness of say, Hazama, is that you hit him to the ground then you do a mixup and he has to respect it, something anyone can do really. 

 

I don't know about other people here with diverse scenes. But I used to use Arakune and due to his "bullshit", he was hated by all players of all skill levels, regardless of wherever they consistently beat me or not. However, I have noticed a very, very strong correlation between player skill and people who think Azrael is "bullshit". Nor have I heard anyone of any real repute nor anyone of any respectable skill think that Azrael is some BS character. 

 

If Azrael is truely S Tier in 1.1, then he's going to be one of the most fair ones BB has had, since he will still lose at neutral vs a lot of the upper half of the cast, meaning he is always very beatable. 

 

Best to just leave people like those on GameFAQs, if they want to spend more time complaining and less time learning, then that's on them.

 

Oh, also, there's something I wanted to ask. I'm sure people have encountered it, but after TCL I sometimes get into this really awkward range where it's too close to the corner for 3D, but too far for 5B. Usually this is where you'd use 2C>6D, but what's a good option if you already used up the 2C in the combo?

[Poultrygeist]

Lol where are people calling him bullshit.  To say he has no weaknesses is completely laughable.  Anyone with good defense can probably handle the average Azrael.  

[Lucalibur]

Oh, also, there's something I wanted to ask. I'm sure people have encountered it, but after TCL I sometimes get into this really awkward range where it's too close to the corner for 3D, but too far for 5B. Usually this is where you'd use 2C>6D, but what's a good option if you already used up the 2C in the combo?

This is actually a very good question. I checked on training mode but couldn't find anything good to use at this range. You can still get a knockdown with extra damage by ending the combo with either Gustav or 3C(though 3C SMP can screw that over in really long combos). Other than that I have no idea what you can use to end the combo, not counting supers(BHS can be used to end the combo just fine and I think Scud can as well).

[Kinkuli]

I'd say people mostly "whine" about azrael because is close range normals like 5A or 5B are reaaaaaallly good and they antiair people from weirdest angles. Basically BB has never had (at least in my opinion) a character that has had as oppressive normals as azrael which lead to good amount of damage on hit. He's like slayer who has been introduced to BB and people just haven't had to deal with a character like that.

 

It also doesn't help since most of his combos can be "dialed" without much effort. But this holds true to many chars so there's that. Azrael just steamrolls low level players with ease so people get salty. At higher level you can get salty because sometimes azrael's do the stupidest shit and for some reason they get hit with it.

 

He's probably S tier just since he has relatively low amount of weaknesses(low range, bad against zoning) which he more than makes up with being a big bad bully. Sentinel change helps a lot also because it basically takes away one weakness that azrael had, which was that you had to play the guessing game on oki for rolls etc. But sentinel setup forces opponent to either tech right away and guess 4-way mixup or late tech which loses to 2A/2D and grants him free damage and a weakpoint. Reversals beat it but can't say which one other than ID, Corona upper, bullet/tager 720 etc. Still in the process of testing which reversals beat it. But it will change some matchups greatly imo.

 

If you happen to be in the blindspot where 5B doesn't hit and you have used 2C already then you are more or less shit out of luck. It's probably better just either position yourself with dash or do a meaty sentinel. 

[alexbib]

I was wondering, is it possible to end a combo with Scud and then go directly to BHS since they can't block it?  Anything they can do to get out?  I've seen it work in videos but I wasn't sure if the enemy was simply caught by surprise or not.

[Kinkuli]

Yes you can do that! Easiest way is to end your valiant combo with scrud instead of 6D/5D. From there the basic setup is 5C to BHS. Only thing your opponent can do is either not tech(less damage), counter assault or burst before stinger hits. 

[RentalBlackout]

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22518087 At around 1:45, you'll see some setup on Tager that involves an unblockable Stinger.

Does this only work on Tager or something?

[Kinkuli]

That should work on everyone else but the main disadvantage that particular setup has(to my knowledge) is that if opponent chooses not to tech the stagger, you get less damage.

[Raziul]

Be aware it is possible to do a reversal DD after the BHS super freeze. Don't try this in high levels unless they have less than 50 heat.

 

Edit: I read that first comment wrong. You can only reversal if they do Scud straight into BHS.

[alexbib]

So let me see if I got this straight:

 

You should do Scud>5C>BHS.  If you omit the 5C, the enemy can reversal after the super freeze, unless you are in OD as in the above video?

 

If they choose not to tech the stagger from Scud, is it possible to follow up with something else after the 5C to reset them for more damage?

[Verimeloni]

Yeah, Scud > anything DD-cancelable > BHS. OD BHS startup is invincible and it clashes with reversals = BAD. The trick in the video in my opinion is that the opponent has to tech after super-freeze and then input reversal = Tager ate the BHS. Just go with 5C > BHS.

 

I don't think so, maybe 5C > Gustav, 5C again? Not reversal safe but if blue beat BHS doesn't secure your victory don't rush it. If only 2D was DD-cancelable without OD you could do 2A > 2D, that would seem kinda safe against at least some DPs.

 

Maybe, MAYBE you can do 3C > 22C instead to force a knockdown and either reset the combo or make them tech and block 22C. Just end your Valiant charger with 6A > Scud so SMP doesn't ruin it. 

[zankoku]

No, you cannot reversal special/distortion Scud -> BHS. If you do both immediately one after the other, the player is not able to recover from crumple until AFTER the super flash, which leaves.... about four frames, at best, that he's not in crumple state. However, as stated in the wiki here: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Movement_%28BBCP%29#Ground_Rolling , crumple recovery lasts for a duration of 8 frames, during which you will auto-block any attacks that would hit you. Which... BHS is unblockable, so...

 

So there's two VALID answers to this setup. Scud Punishment scales your damage by a ridiculous amount (10 P2 on the second hit), so if the opponent simply doesn't recover from crumple, then BHS will blue-beat for its 1.2k (or 1.48k in OD) minimum damage. The other, much much scarier answer, is that when you hit Burst during crumple recovery, you actually Overdrive. Thus, your BHS will whiff on the Overdrive's invuln frames and leave you free to be punished.

 

Scud -> 5C -> BHS also allows simply waiting for a blue-beat, but prevents the Overdrive punish, as hitting Burst after eating 5C will simply result in a Burst. However, if they recover from crumple and block 5C, then they will be able to counter-assault the BHS (provided they have the 50 meter for it).

[LegendaryRath]

^ Bravo!

 

That's quite possibly the best explanation I've ever seen for anything. 

[LegendaryRath]

Patch is out

 

TCL > rapid >  j.C > 6A > j.C > 214D > 5A > aerial works on the entire cast. So glad! (I haven't tested it on *everyone* but I've only tried it on characters that it didn't work on before, like Hakumen/Rachel).

 

Sentinel dump feels weird, but oh soo good,.

[Lucalibur]

The Azrael fixes are so good man. I'm really glad for all the little changes we got like the 214D buff and Sentinel's input change. I'm legit surprised by how a simple input change can make a difference to a move. I'm definitely using Sentinel a lot more now.

 

3C>22C being faster is also really nice. Sometimes it didn't combo because I messed up the timing but that won't happen anymore. Really glad about that.

 

Backdash nerf is rather insignificant\unnoticeable. It's there but I don't think it's really gonna change much, if anything.

 

D moves being special cancellable in OD is hilarious...5K meterless off a 5A with upper mark...hah. So much combo video material here.

[LordSpectreX]

I just spent the last 5 minutes doing Dash TK Sentinel. Feels good man.

[greatfernman]

I tested what beats TCL>Dash TK Sentinel. It catches all forms of wakeup (including not waking up), except for a slightly delayed neutral tech. however, from my cursory testing, the opponent recovers after azrael, so 5A blows up any attempt to mash and azrael still has the pressure.

Also I tested Ragna, Jin (both C and D) and Mu's DPs and immediate tech DP beats tk sentinel clean, I tested Litchi's as well but couldn't get it to beat sentinel. Hazama's Jayoku clashes with sentinel. Kokonoe's fireball also beats it. I was going to test terumi's soutenjin but I forgot. It'd probably beat sentinel though. Tech yukikaze will activate on sentinel, but since sentinel is a projectile azrael can jump out of the way.

I only did some brief tests, since I have a paper to write, so I may have made mistakes.

If anybody could do more extensive tests that'd be great, I would do it after my essay but finals week :c.

Also what are the new OD combos like? I tried doing 5BB>ODc>5B>2C>6D>Sentinel>5D>Sentinel>3D>etc but it doesnt seem optimal

 

Edit: oh yeah and if you are in OD and have one weakpoint, 2/5D>BHS is an instant unblockable setup. I stupidly forgot to test 3/6D>BHS but that would probably work as well. However, if the opponent does not block, you have to change the timing on BHS, so you have to confirm it hit on block. I didn't test counter hit.

Edited May 14, 2014 by greatfernman