The EX discussion thread

[Genstov]

Is there a good chance of the EX characters having a similar range of balance as the normal characters, enough that they might function as their own separate fighting force within themselves? Or are there a few EXs that are way more broken than the rest and would make it unplayable?

Discuss.

And don't automatically murder this thread because it has to do with EXs; we don't have enough data to prove that EXs are as unbalanced as they're made out to be because nobody uses them. The purpose of this thread is to find out if, in fact, EXs are so unbalanced that they are unusable, or if there is enough evidence to prove that EXs can be balanced enough to be playable.

This is not seeing how EXs stack up against regular characters.

Let's enjoy a great showtime!

[edit] As of 5/12/09, the standard for EX characters is Accent Core Plus, having been released in both Japan and America for PS2 and Wii by this date.

[DoomieJ]

The ones i have seen played are EX jam and sol, used by a guy i play who is terrible when using regular characters. We still beat him but jam is insanely hard. every puffball is a forcebreak and she has a full screen instant projectile that does about 3 times the damage of a CSE from ky. sol isn't nearly as hard as she is.

[Digital Watches]

Er. Just to clarify, you're exactly right, no one really knows how balanced or not EXs are, but whether they're well-balanced is irrelevant to why no one plays them.

[bucklemyshoe]

I <3 EX-Dizzy. Some of my friends use EX charachters when we play. I don't really care, it's all the same to me. Most of them aren't good enough to make a difference if they play EX or normal.

[Genstov]

Er. Just to clarify, you're exactly right, no one really knows how balanced or not EXs are, but whether they're well-balanced is irrelevant to why no one plays them.

Good point, but that was the only problem I could really address; the other main reason is that EXs aren't on arcade machines, something none of us have power over.

[Digital Watches]

Good point, but that was the only problem I could really address; the other main reason is that EXs aren't on arcade machines, something none of us have power over.

Well, I'm not going to say "don't bother with EX," but you're never going to convince enough of the GG community as a whole to go off the arcades standard, and so there's probably never going to be a competitive scene for EX characters. If you're fine with that and still want to mess around with them, go ahead.

[Light_Nazgul]

Having an EX only character tournament on the side could be fun and pleasant diversion. It would not help your professional Guilty Gear career out, but it could be amusing like HNK or Sengoku Basara X. The lack of an arcade standard and a small community are definitely detrimental to a potential EX scene. I vote EX Testament as being broken. The power to auto warrant from anywhere and combo into poison for free are just incomprehensible. EX Johnny is a sad man with no mist finer and a catch that can be baited easy.

[YanisDLooper]

Agreed with Johnny. It is hard to use his Mist Finer catches consistently. But with practice they could be as good as Axl's. The catches do make the Mist Cancel easier, but because you can't up the level of the Mist Finer it stays the same sad speed as it always will. The coin turns into a limited ammo pressure device. Divine Blade combos make an awesome comeback. But you completely lose Killer Joker. His HITS dragonpunch is a very good addition as well, with multiple frames of invincibility it is now a new wakeup tool to use. Overall the loss of the Mist Finer as an attack makes it more difficult to combo. But the inclusion of Divine Blade combos and his HITS attack attempt to make up for the loss. He still has his great tension gain for Divine Blade FRCs or even an Overdrive (I didn't mention his new aerial one). Also, his dash is changed to a rush. All of these together makes it seem like the direction he is built for is a more aggressive attacker with a few catches if you opponent tries to take the momentum away from you. Nowhere near S rank. Maybe up from the bottom?

[thegame4ever]

Eddie's EX allowing him to trade places with his mini-eddie...holy shit.

[rtl42]

Agreed with Johnny. It is hard to use his Mist Finer catches consistently. But with practice they could be as good as Axl's.

The catches do make the Mist Cancel easier, but because you can't up the level of the Mist Finer it stays the same sad speed as it always will.

The coin turns into a limited ammo pressure device.

Divine Blade combos make an awesome comeback. But you completely lose Killer Joker.

His HITS dragonpunch is a very good addition as well, with multiple frames of invincibility it is now a new wakeup tool to use.

Overall the loss of the Mist Finer as an attack makes it more difficult to combo. But the inclusion of Divine Blade combos and his HITS attack attempt to make up for the loss.

He still has his great tension gain for Divine Blade FRCs or even an Overdrive (I didn't mention his new aerial one).

Also, his dash is changed to a rush.

All of these together makes it seem like the direction he is built for is a more aggressive attacker with a few catches if you opponent tries to take the momentum away from you.

Nowhere near S rank. Maybe up from the bottom?

EX MF Lv2 is a "just frame" catch, iirc. also, i'm just going off of Slash EX JO, but is 6K still low and JCable?

[4r5]

Even if the EX chars are balanced amongst themselves, I'm not sure people would willing go back to what is essential #r-Eddie with more icing on top. (Hello, air drills and in-flight summons!) You might have better luck with #r, instead of AC. First off, you don't have 5 years of unused (ie: overpowered) moves/ideas that have been dumped in to the mausoleum that is the EX-Chars. And second, you get a access to a community that isn't so adverse to the idea of EX-Chars. Plus, the community is online based. So you don't end up with some guy in Florida and another guy in Sweden, and they totally dig your idea and wanna help out, but all they can do is throw theory-punches at each other. (That is, if they can understand each other.) Instead, they can just play online. Just organize some tournaments and you'd get some actual results for your eventual tier list. Though lag will certainly skew your tiers, but it's better then nothing. rtl42, yeah, Jo's 5K still hits low. And His j.S -> land,2D/dj.HS mixup is still awesome. As well as his combo-able instant (after the flash) overhead super.

[YanisDLooper]

EX MF Lv2 is a "just frame" catch, iirc. also, i'm just going off of Slash EX JO, but is 6K still low and JCable?

BTW I'm referring to AC EX Johnny.

I never knew you could get a Lv2 with a "just frame" catch.

5k is low, but shorter range.

6k is still his dash forward kick.

His normal straight side kick is completely replaced.

Also his 2hs is replaced by his 2 hit 3hs.

And his 2D is replaced by his 2hs, except with knockdown and no backward movement.

Also his jhs animation changes and is much more of a severe plummet than his normal jhs.

There are more small changes here and there, but these are the major ones I have picked up from playing him.

[4r5]

I'm trying to JF the catch, but I can't seem to do it. Does it even matter? You get #r-style Lvl2's on just a counter-hit, which is pretty much guaranteed if you catch someone.

[YanisDLooper]

I'm trying to JF the catch, but I can't seem to do it. Does it even matter? You get #r-style Lvl2's on just a counter-hit, which is pretty much guaranteed if you catch someone.

If it was #r style Lv2s then MFK would knock them straight up, but it instead knocks them away, like a Lv1.

[4r5]

shrug, I'm playing on AC+

[YanisDLooper]

shrug, I'm playing on AC+

Well crap.

My comment is mute then. I'm playing on AC.

[Metal Sonic]

The only thing I know is: EX-Ky have much more mixup options with Command Grab and "Grand Vapour Thrust".

[Raijin_CFN]

His damage out of command grab is shit tho... unless I'm mistaken...

[Sytha]

Meh. Not like EX Ky needs much. Pretty sure he has Slash 2H, Old CSE, Level 5 Fireballs (Including the FRC.), anywhere call lightning which homes in on people for instant knockdown if they so much as twitch, All the new tools Ky got in AC, Pretty sure he has some retarded 6K loop which does good damage, and that new R.E.D kick wannabe that causes slide on hit and can be TKed for an overhead. Yep. Totally Balanced.

[Raijin_CFN]

I'm gonna remember all of what you said. I'm probably gonna delve in the EX world. I know like, 12 characters inside and out and some chars, like axl or may are just fags so I'll probably just pick up some EX characters just for the hell of it.

[YanisDLooper]

Meh. Not like EX Ky needs much. Pretty sure he has Slash 2H, Old CSE, Level 5 Fireballs (Including the FRC.), anywhere call lightning which homes in on people for instant knockdown if they so much as twitch, All the new tools Ky got in AC, Pretty sure he has some retarded 6K loop which does good damage, and that new R.E.D kick wannabe that causes slide on hit and can be TKed for an overhead. Yep. Totally Balanced.

The thing is all the EX characters are "Totally Balanced".

We don't want to compare EX character against normal characters, but instead balance them against each other.

[EasyModeNub]

The entire reason I can't see EX characters being balanced even among themselves are EX Sol, Ky, and Eddie. Eddie for the reason stated earlier... it's just gruesome. Ky for the insane mix up and his lightning call, which is insane no matter how you look at it. "OH FUCK HE TWITCHED!" instant knockdown at any range. But most of all because of Sol's 236D, it's just too good. If he gets a knockdown with 25-50% tension at almost any range accept right in the corner it's almost a free win. The only options you have once he starts are to either IB that last hit and SJ out before the next one forces you to block, or to just take it and get juggled until you can recover. It's infinite blockstun... He's Black/Shadow Venom! Shit, you can beat every level of survival with that being the bulk of your strat.

[CrimsonDisaster]

uh dude EX Sol 236D uses meter and stalls tension gain so he doesn't get unlimited lockdown (plus it doesn't even go all the way across the screen anymore), you can dodge EX Ky 22D and his overheads are as slow as ever... not like 22D does any damage. People obviously aren't playing enough EX matches to comment on this stuff ;( EX Sol is good because he gets like 2-3 mixups off 236D oki, not because it "locks down" or anything. He then gets to dust loop off whatever. If you can't block EX Ky overheads or spot grab mixups then you have no place saying how good or bad any EX character is since you're just losing to crappy moves. That's like saying Robo-Ky is top tier because you can't block his dust. Speaking of Robo-Ky, I really wish his FB EXPLODE was better.

[EasyModeNub]

uh dude EX Sol 236D uses meter and stalls tension gain so he doesn't get unlimited lockdown (plus it doesn't even go all the way across the screen anymore), you can dodge EX Ky 22D and his overheads are as slow as ever... not like 22D does any damage.

People obviously aren't playing enough EX matches to comment on this stuff ;(

EX Sol is good because he gets like 2-3 mixups off 236D oki, not because it "locks down" or anything. He then gets to dust loop off whatever.

If you can't block EX Ky overheads or spot grab mixups then you have no place saying how good or bad any EX character is since you're just losing to crappy moves. That's like saying Robo-Ky is top tier because you can't block his dust.

Speaking of Robo-Ky, I really wish his FB EXPLODE was better.

I don't have AC plus so I only know some of the changes that were made to the EX characters. I didn't realize that Sol's 236D had been balanced, thank god, so I guess I was at no real position to speak. I hadn't really noticed that Ky's 22D did no damage, the only things I've seen are what Tim showed me. It's still annoying as fuck though. lol EX Ky still has good mix-up in my opinion. His overhead options are MUCH better than most characters and he at least has the option of a decently fast cross up in the middle of short strings at mid screen. His throw game isn't anything notable, but it's still another option that most really don't have.

[YanisDLooper]

I think we need to define a baseline for comparison. AC or AC+ (Probably is going to be AC+) Unfortunately I, and several other forum members, don't have AC+ yet. And the only way we can test their balance against each other is if we play them against each other, because arbitrarily arguing over what attacks are broken and how unbalanced they are is getting us nowhere. In the mean time we can describe what each character has gotten and what they have lost. The only one that has so far is Johnny. *EDIT At least somewhat completed* Let's see some other characters up here!