[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Luminos564]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4j6BppRXs84

Stumbled on this : Score attack boss Elizabeth using SB Mamudoon. so the recovery is as crappy as the regular one, but the circle is in front of Liz at ground level as stated earlier.

Damn, so much for SB Mamudoon having any use in Lizzie's gameplan then. Oh well, at least it is nice to have confirmation on its placement at least. Also is it me, or does Boss Lizzie seem less Diarahan happy than before? I remember if you were far away from her and she got her Awakening, Diarahan was 90% likely to go off.

[pulsr]

When I played her, she felt really neat. But she didn't necessarily feel good. All of her changes made her ... post mid game better if that makes any sense. In vanilla, I always felt the hardest thing about her was trying to land the first hit and that didn't change. So basically she's a weaker version of herself now. 5C dash cancel was probably the coolest thing, it looks super terrifying but I'm pretty sure it won't stop people from mashing against her. Xie says the air counter is pretty good, I'm not much of a fan of it since the recovery is like 10 minutes.

SB Zio is pretty amazing now, but everything else is worse so I can't see her ever getting in legitly. And when you do get in you can hit them for a whole 2-3k yay?

[Zephyrion22]

First loke liz with crazy damage and midscreen ghastly wail, you will be missed

[Dazardz]

Really sucks. That Liz with 700 psr got 3k for 50SP, previously, we got 4k for 25SP. Maybe we are missing out on a great combo route, but I can't see it. And a lot of the time, I see SB Mabufudyne used during combos. So is this another 25SP that we need to use often unlike Vanilla? Because I hardly saw it in Vanilla.

Maybe they nerfed her damage because of the way she can inflict multiple statuses? The Liz had Yosuke in a corner while he was inflicted with shock and poison at the same time, which was pretty cool.

[Zephyrion22]

Thing is, they probably intended to make liz a monster in Awakening, and they did so in her first loketest version, but she was (allegedly) broken. For some reason, they nerfed her to oblivion in the second loke (the one before the final version). Final version of liz was a slightly tweaked and improved version of second loke liz. Irony is that she is now barely more viable in awakening than in normal mode.

Maybe they nerfed her damage because of the way she can inflict multiple statuses? The Liz had Yosuke in a corner while he was inflicted with shock and poison at the same time, which was pretty cool.

With all due respect to Acsys, I can't agree with that simply because she could also pack up statuses back in P4A, and Teddie, which can also do that, have a far better or improved damage output/neutral/mixup potential/whatever. While it is understandable to fail on balancing on a whole new character (to be fair, they did a pretty good job with all the new chars), they failed to accomplish what they had initially planned for liz

Well, I don't have the courage to erase my ramblings on balance issues, but at least, you have one of the interpretations on why liz is what she is for the moment

Edited February 2, 2014 by Zephyrion22

[Elochai]

Maybe we are missing out on a great combo route, but I can't see it.

I still think this is it. The 5D FC combo kinda convinces me of this as well. This player seemed to "freestyle" the combo.

In regards to the damage comment, maybe this is because Liz has Randomizer now? No one uses it, but I don't believe that it is a logical leap to assume that the "missing damage" is going to come from getting people into NP. Weren't there supposedly setups with Randomizer (at least in the loketests)?

Pulsr's impressions kinda make me sad, but it's sensible I guess. I never expected Liz to get that much better anyway lol.

[Luminos564]

Thing is, they probably intended to make liz a monster in Awakening, and they did so in her first loketest version, but she was (allegedly) broken.

Out of curiosity, what was she even capable of doing in Loketest #1 with her Awakening that made her "overpowered" (I don't use the term "broken" because it implies that something does not work)? I tried looking up documents on DL but haven't had luck finding it.

For some reason, they nerfed her to oblivion in the second loke (the one before the final version). Final version of liz was a slightly tweaked and improved version of second loke liz. Irony is that she is now barely more viable in awakening than in normal mode.

Probably because ASW is still playing favorites. Wanna know why Mitsuru was the monster that she was back in P4A? Because she was the developers' favorite character and thus was given all the best tools needed to dominate. She took a hit now but is still more than capable of ripping the competition to shreds. By contrast, Lizzie seems to be getting worse and worse. Pulsr's impressions only serve to make me more worried. So much so in fact, that I now HAVE to make sure to learn another character as back-up.

[Zephyrion22]

Out of curiosity, what was she even capable of doing in Loketest #1 with her Awakening that made her "overpowered" (I don't use the term "broken" because it implies that something does not work)? I tried looking up documents on DL but haven't had luck finding it.

To me she was quite strong without being overpowered. I don't remember all the changes, but mostly, all her zios covered 90% of the screen, Garus had more range and garu loops were still possible , bufu was a 3 hit move (it froze two times in a row), allowing for ice resets and Ghaslty wail enders from anywhere on the screen, and maragidyne was faster and allowed for crazy stuff (Lol at C maragidyne pushing the opponent away, then a second row of pillar bringing him back, and D did the reverse of that), her SB dia had a better healing rate , and 2C had the same untech time as P4A.

I don't remember all the changes but basically She was P4A Liz with better range,decent resets/mixups and explosive damage from anywhere on the screen when in Awakening, at a time when the damage of the other characters was overall nerfed. So I think these nerfs made her look stronger than she actually was

In regards to the damage comment, maybe this is because Liz has Randomizer now? No one uses it, but I don't believe that it is a logical leap to assume that the "missing damage" is going to come from getting people into NP. Weren't there supposedly setups with Randomizer (at least in the loketests)?

I don't know if those setups are still possible, but if they were, I don't see why people would choose not to get their free negative penalty. Seriously this move is godlike in every way, except for its stupid, stupid input

Edited February 3, 2014 by Zephyrion22

[Luminos564]

*To avoid a sea of quotes, I'll go through the points of interest in point form.

-Eh, I can see why the Maziodyne was changed. And personally, I kinda like the differences with the Maziodyne versions at the moment. A-version is small, but quick and you can even do it twice while Thanny is still "out". B-version can be charged and cover 90% of the screen whether in Awakening or not. And SB-version firing twice is very welcome. If I had to change one thing, it would be to allow AWK.B-version to fire the charged, screen-covering blast immediately.

-Yeah, I miss Magarudyne loops too. The current AWK-Magarudyne versions are not really meant for looping, lowering damage. They look awesome sure, but are not the damage builders in Lizzie's repertoire.

-Oh my, that Mabufudyne sounds positively amazing. Whose bright idea was it to remove this? MORIIIIIIIIIII . Ghastly Wail enders from anywhere on the screen may sound opverpowering but considering it is her only damaging 50 (75) SP skill, I think most wouldn't complain.

Then again, players complain about every damn thing these days so what do I know

?

-I can understand why that Maragidyne was changed. That is some serious space-control for pretty much free and would ultimately nullify any use SB-Maragidyne had. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have appreciated having it though .

I don't remember all the changes but basically She was P4A Liz with better range,decent resets/mixups and explosive damage from anywhere on the screen when in Awakening, at a time when the damage of the other characters was overall nerfed. So I think these nerfs made her look stronger than she actually was

OK, someone explain to me how ASW could pretty much hit the nail on the head with Lizzie in Loketest #1 and then completely botch it? The bolded part is pretty much exactly how I envisioned an ideal Lizzie. Ugh, what a waste.

I don't know if those setups are still possible, but if they were, I don't see why people would choose not to get their free negative penalty. Seriously this move is godlike in every way, except for its stupid, stupid input

That's probably the only thing keeping it back. If it was the traditional [4]6 input, I bet it'd be an amazing reversal and a much better alternative to say Shuffle Time. I theorized that since we have dash cancel 5C, we could do 5C>DC>Randomizer/Debilitate. Though, that doesn't seem possible as I'm sure we'd have seen it in action already. Maybe Evasive Action>Radomizer could work in stead?

Edited February 3, 2014 by Luminos564

[TheArm05]

Saying Liz could be good because of her status effects/resets/potential damage is basically irrelevant. P4U Liz was a great character once you hit someone. The problem was/is you just can't really hit good players outside of tagging them with random shit.

Pulsr basically just confirmed all of my worst fears and it looks like barring balance changes I will have to main a different character next game. I suffered enough in P4U I won't make the same mistake again. I will still put in plenty of time to learn new Liz for fun since she is still easily my favorite Persona character but I doubt I will rock her in tournaments.

[RifleAvenger]

Pulsr basically just confirmed all of my worst fears and it looks like barring balance changes I will have to main a different character next game. I suffered enough in P4U I won't make the same mistake again. I will still put in plenty of time to learn new Liz for fun since she is still easily my favorite Persona character but I doubt I will rock her in tournaments.

I'll probably have to do the same. I can deal with playing low tier if the character is fun, and I found P4A Liz to be such a character. But a character in downright awful tier would have to be insanely fun to play to offset the frustrations of practically being in the wrong game. Probably going to move to S.Naoto or SHO as a main unless something drastic magically occurs in the next few months.

It's a damn shame something much closer to Loketest 1 Liz isn't the final product. That version had everything I wanted Liz to be.

[Zephyrion22]

Saying Liz could be good because of her status effects/resets/potential damage is basically irrelevant. P4U Liz was a great character once you hit someone. The problem was/is you just can't really hit good players outside of tagging them with random shit.

I couldn't agree more. The character was designed this way, and it's an inherent weakness for Liz. But as a reward, landing that one hit, be it by luck or a clever read, should hold some kind of reward, as it did for P4A Elizabeth . While the reward was great for P4U2 first loke Liz, the reward for Liz as she is now is, well,mediocre. All this to say that yeah, Pulsr is right. I'm already subbing Yosuke and Yukiko in P4A, and I'm glad I did so, liz will probably stay in the lab until Acsys decides to give her mad scientist buffs to get her out of CS Rachel tier

[Luminos564]

It's a damn shame something much closer to Loketest 1 Liz isn't the final product. That version had everything I wanted Liz to be.

Seconded.

I need to move to a new main myself if I actually want to win it seems. The problem being though that I've yet to find a P4U2 character that is as fun as P4A Lizzie. Chie is looking pretty close but even she doesn't make my pulse quicken like Lizzie did whenever I did something good in a match. Still, better than nothing I guess unless ASW decides to add Makoto Yuki to the game later as their "mysterious character that everyone wanted for a long time". And even then, Lizzie will still be someone I use for fun from time to time.

[Elochai]

I don't plan on switching characters, regardless of how bad Liz is. Granted, having fun is the most important thing (this is what games are for anyway), but I don't think any character gives me the enjoyment that Elizabeth does. There's just something really satisfying about playing her; probably in that she requires you to be solid to win (plus, she's a total waifu).

I'll wait and see what happens, development wise though. Who knows what's still left to be found?

Btw, I don't quite like some of the Hama combos that've been recorded. P4U Hama combos seem kinda cheaper in regards to resources (if memory serves me well).

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[Dazardz]

There's just something really satisfying about playing her.

5C CH in the corner.

I agree with your statement about Hamaon combos. So far, all I have seen is almost all of Liz's meter used, and you need to be in awakening. Most of them in the corner too. Vanilla was different, midscreen hama combos from resets even with only something like 75 meter without awakening.

If I was gonna get the game, I'd consider only using her for fun when I'm playing a lot of matches against my friend. I still think she has that fun potential...

[Luminos564]

Btw, I don't quite like some of the Hama combos that've been recorded. P4U Hama combos seem kinda cheaper in regards to resources (if memory serves me well).

I agree with your statement about Hamaon combos. So far, all I have seen is almost all of Liz's meter used, and you need to be in awakening. Most of them in the corner too. Vanilla was different, midscreen hama combos from resets even with only something like 75 meter without awakening.

It's because we can't rely on Magarudyne-loops anymore, which both saved us meter and allowed for some midscreen Mahamaon combos. Now the shtick seems to rely on at least 1 SB AWK.Magarudyne (optional depending on screen position) and 2 SB AWK.Maziodyne (a must). That's at least 50SP more needed than before and we still need OMB from time to time. It's a shame really, because I'd love it if Lizzie could manually set-off Mahamaon/Mamudoon for an additional 50SP by inputting the same command again, but that ain't happening as it'd be far too powerful.

[TheArm05]

Having a super that instant kills is just poor fighting game design. It is balanced out by how bad it is. Instant kill supers that have no special requirements (unlike Naoto's) are either going to be inherently overpowered or useless.

If it is possible to practical combo Mahamaon every round with 50-100 meter then it becomes a dominant and overpowering tactic that Liz players will tunnelvision on. It will dictate Liz's gameplan and will make the game unfun for both the Liz player who is stuggling to get this one specific hit and the other guy who just knows he will get 100>0ed if he screws up once (barring burst).

If it isn't practical to combo (read: P4U1 Mahamaon/Mamudoon) then it is just useless wasted space on the movelist. Therefore it might as well not exist.

Instant kill moves just don't really have a reason to exist in competitive fighting games.

[Luminos564]

Having a super that instant kills is just poor fighting game design. It is balanced out by how bad it is. Instant kill supers that have no special requirements (unlike Naoto's) are either going to be inherently overpowered or useless.

Hey, I did say that if she could manually detonate them it'd be far too powerful of a move didn't I ? But we are in agreement that they are inherently, near useless. Well Mahamaon has some visual flair value, but Mamudoon is useless the way it is now.

If it is possible to practical combo Mahamaon every round with 50-100 meter then it becomes a dominant and overpowering tactic that Liz players will tunnelvision on. It will dictate Liz's gameplan and will make the game unfun for both the Liz player who is stuggling to get this one specific hit and the other guy who just knows he will get 100>0ed if he screws up once (barring burst).

I dunno. Having both the Lizzie player and the opposing one knowing she could do that might be more fun than you give it credit for. It can create some wonderful tension where the Lizzie player knows they only need that one clean hit for victory and the opponent being wary of making a mistake against her. If nothing else, it would certainly give current players a reason to fear facing Lizzie rather than relaxing, knowing they've got the upper hand. Plus I'd argue that since every other character can virtually kill us within a combo and that much quicker for less resources, it's just fair game for us to be able to do the same to them.

Of course, this is strictly opinion and theory. People have demonstrated that they will bitch and whine like broken records about anything they can when they don't know how to deal with a character/tactic/move/etc.

If it isn't practical to combo (read: P4U1 Mahamaon/Mamudoon) then it is just useless wasted space on the movelist. Therefore it might as well not exist.

Instant kill moves just don't really have a reason to exist in competitive fighting games.

Hmm, yes. Mahamaon and Mamudoon being borderline useless is indeed a waste of a slot for the movelist. But as you said, making instant death practical can lead to balance problems. Fortunately, this can be solved fairly easily without actually resulting in an overpowering move. What if, hypothetically, the moves themselves were changed around? As in instead of causing instant death, they dealt a set amount of damage?

If you'll notice, Lizzie's Mahamaon and Mamudoon are different from Naoto's in that they cause over 20,000 damage thus leading to the opponent's "death". Well, you could rework them that they normally deal damage like other 50SP skills, only breaking the 20K damage mark if they were to kill the opponent anyway like Order-Sol's Dragon Install Sakkai Instant Kill. It would also be in line with the source material as there are Light and Dark skills that do damage, not just instant death and as a bonus, Lizzie can actually use them (provided they remove the awful detonation time and disappearing on hit/block).

[Speakeasy]

Obviously I have very little experience with anything other than netplay, but I feel like if Mamudoon and Mahamaon were made into C and D versions of the same move, it would be less appalling to have them taking up space. Not sure what the other slot would be filled by, though.

Also, is Suplex Lizzy really getting hit that hard with the nerf stick? I don't know a lot about the changes they've made and how they apply, but dammit, I like playing as Lizzy. I don't want to have to switch characters or be fighting an always-uphill battle. Are her options and tools gone or weaker or something?

[Luminos564]

Also, is Suplex Lizzy really getting hit that hard with the nerf stick? I don't know a lot about the changes they've made and how they apply, but dammit, I like playing as Lizzy. I don't want to have to switch characters or be fighting an always-uphill battle. Are her options and tools gone or weaker or something?

Not exactly. Overall she has some better tools (like the new Awakened SB Maziodyne) and can really turn up the heat when Awakened. The problems are two-fold:

(1) She still has no reliable/safe way to enter Awakening where she really shines. Pre-Awakening, ASW really took the nerf bat to Mabufudyne (B) and Magarudyne loops which keeps our damage really low.

(2) For all the better tools she got, it is ultimately a moot point as everyone else's new stuff either outshines her or they ultimately don't need to worry about her new tools in the first place.

As pulsr put it: "You're playing a weaker version of P4A Lizzie". In fact, it is almost safe to say that Lizzie changed too little as opposed to everyone else.

[Speakeasy]

So it would be more accurate to say that everybody else got buffed too much, relatively-speaking?

[Elochai]

I wouldn't exactly say that. More like Elizabeth's buffs don't outweigh her nerfs, so she's "worse" overall. Additionally, most of the cast got marginally better, which adds to Elizabeth's greater weakness. Plus, she needs to be in Awakening to receive her buffs anyway (lol). I like how Luminos put it:

For all the better tools she got, it is ultimately a moot point as everyone else's new stuff either outshines her or they ultimately don't need to worry about her new tools in the first place.

I feel this was kind of how Elizabeth was in the first version as well (tools that aren't necessarily bad standalone, but everyone else just has way better stuff).

Edited February 6, 2014 by Elochai

[Speakeasy]

I think I understand now. I'm still going to use her off and on out of spite, though. I want to play around with her new stuff.

If I don't have to put up with Yu vs Elizabeth anymore, though, I'd be happy to main someone else. God, I hope Yu isn't even more annoying for Lizzy to fight.

[Luminos564]

I feel this was kind of how Elizabeth was in the first version as well (tools that aren't necessarily bad standalone, but everyone else just has way better stuff).

Pretty much that, yes. And it's funny, because she definitely has some room for growth here. A bit of re-tweaking on her skillset here, a reasonable buff there and she could potentially be one of the better characters in the game. But for the time being, this is the character that we got so all we can do is either tough it out until something changes or take up a new character. A third option exists, though it requires being so proficient at the game, that Lizzie's weaknesses don't affect you at all.

If I don't have to put up with Yu vs Elizabeth anymore, though, I'd be happy to main someone else. God, I hope Yu isn't even more annoying for Lizzy to fight.

Hate to break it to ya, but Yu is still one of the best characters in the game and as of P4U2, is easily one of the most used characters around. So if you didn't get to fight him much before, then be prepared to get REAL intimate with him this time.

Edited February 6, 2014 by Luminos564

[Speakeasy]

I'm sure there isn't a single person on the planet surprised that Yu is still a top character, but I hated fighting him because of how he seems to have an answer for everything Elizabeth could do. It helps that I mostly ran into people skilled enough to know when to mix up their spamming but annoying enough to continue to spam, so I could never learn to fight actual, sincere Yu players. Hopefully I'll get to grind my axe against more players this time around and learn what to do about the slide and that damned air approach thing.