[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Dazardz]

Were you trying to make to make a picture of New York with all those spoilers?

It WAS worth reading, and actually quite entertaining to hear your opinion of how things would go. This is gameplay discussion after all (this is allowed right?)

First of all,

+2C untech time back to P4U1

+ Liz's counter assault is fully invincible

This makes me sad that it would be considered a buff anyway, even the Liz haters know she should have it this way already.

What I didn't understand?

- A fun change could be that if any projectile/hitbox touches AW garu without touching Liz , its hit hitbox is activated (turns into the giant tornado)

Yeah that is fun, but would Garu still move around? In AW, the Garu we have now is huge, but does not move. Would your suggestion let the huge Garu move or not, because if somebody is throwing a projectile at you, I imagine they'd be far away from the Garu meaning they wouldn't even get hit when Garu's hitbox increases really...

Then I think I did disagree a bit with these two put together:

+ overall damage slightly buffed : not 6k on everything, but 4K on non-ground combos should be a given

+ AW slower buffer, slower startup, always inflicts negative Penalty

I know you said Negative Penalty would only be inflicted in AW, but wouldn't this be incredibly strong? When the first loketest came out, I wanted it, I remember posting something about it. But when I think about it, 8k combos THAT easily? Too strong.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Dazardz

[Zephyrion22]

- A fun change could be that if any projectile/hitbox touches AW garu without touching Liz , its hit hitbox is activated (turns into the giant tornado)

Yeah that is fun, but would Garu still move around? In AW, the Garu we have now is huge, but does not move. Would your suggestion let the huge Garu move or not, because if somebody is throwing a projectile at you, I imagine they'd be far away from the Garu meaning they wouldn't even get hit when Garu's hitbox increases really...

Completely forgot that you can't move while AW garu is active, my bad. so yeah it would be useless

Then I think I did disagree a bit with these two put together:

+ overall damage slightly buffed : not 6k on everything, but 4K on non-ground combos should be a given

+ AW slower buffer, slower startup, always inflicts negative Penalty

I know you said Negative Penalty would only be inflicted in AW, but wouldn't this be incredibly strong? When the first loketest came out, I wanted it, I remember posting something about it. But when I think about it, 8k combos THAT easily? Too strong.

that's why I included something about the recovery of it.It would be too strong if Liz recovered before the opponent, but should she recover at the same time than him, with her bad startups in general, getting the next hit would be harder, and thus more rewarding. basically it would be a bet, as you're in awakening, you're forsaking the advantage, for a "the one who gets the next hit wins". to top it all, the negative itself doesn't last long, so running away is always possible, especially midscreen when the move sends you miles away. But yeah this + damage buff might be overkill

Thanks for the feedback !

[Luminos564]

So I was watching some GGAC+R out of a desire for nostalgia and came upon the Guilty Bits episode featuring A.B.A. Upon watching it, I found that the core of her gameplan is eerily similar to what Lizzie currently has. For the unawares, A.B.A is a mode-change character that is among the worst while in her "Normal" mode but becomes amazing when she shifts to "Moroha" mode (and even more so in "Goku Moroha"), gaining better speed, attacks and damage output. The risks of health loss are also very much there, with A.B.A gradually losing it in Moroha mode while Lizzie sacrifices it to force her Awakening.

Why do I bring this up? Because right now, I see Lizzie as more of a watered-down version of A.B.A. She gets much better specials in Awakening like her, but the speed and most glaring, damage output are nowhere near what Moroha mode offers to A.B.A. Another is the ability to survive, as A.B.A is capable of restoring her health pretty darn safely while Lizzie can't. So I had the brainwave of suggesting that if ASW were to improve on what they have done with Lizzie. They didn't give her the full treatment (for instance, Moroha changes A.B.A's normals, not just specials), but they could do it in the future. What do you guys think?

[Lynette]

Do You mean Her Normals also get buffed in awakening?

[Luminos564]

Do You mean Her Normals also get buffed in awakening?

Yes. For instance you could buff her 5D and JD back to P4A in terms of reach but keep their speed. Another one I thought would be "interesting" would be to give 2D a hitbox on Thanny's head. It'd still apply poison, but his head will now register a hit and add to a combo.

[Lynette]

I Think that's really interesting, especially the Thanny's head 2D hitbox Lol! but honestly I don't think that'll solve issues with Liz, I mean in P4A, She had the lowest health, slow but somewhat usable DP, and no actual guard cancel, but at the very least she had huge damage potential (Especially with fear) and Invigorate, I don't know what ASW was thinking with Liz but huge damage and Invigorate doesn't even begin to compensate for the fact that she goes down in two combos tops, In P4U2 however, even though her damage is fairly reduced, it's nice to see she has more viability with her 5AA (Dat Pinwheel!) and 5BB, and more range with her 5B and j.B (and a seemingly faster 5A) and I'll gladly choose that over high damage, but unless she has an actual "defensive option" and/or an answer to pressure, then we're still going to suffer at the likes of Akihiko and Yu.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Lynette

[GBAer64]

Brkrdave's a female!? 0_0 I didn't even know! Damn...

Edit: Sorry for that I haven't looked at so many videos with the new Liz so forgive me for being off topic. ^_^;;

Now that I have (some) knowledge of how Liz has changed in P4U2. I'm honestly kinda sad that they threw away how she was in the first lokitest (think I spelled it right). Sure the first one wasn't exactly complete but it was a step in the right direction since Elizabeth wass considered irrelevant in terms of the tier list and being in tourneys before and now even. Unlike Akihiko, Yu, Aigis, or Mitsuru, Chie, etc. Lizzy has almost no mixups or crossups that compare to most of the characters. And it seems that they have even more tricks up their sleeves with P4U2 while Liz get's a rebuff/buff(?) aka her moves are weaker before Awakening but are somewhat better when awakened. Since Lizzy already excels at damaging combos... (sorta?) I'd say that she needs a mixup/crossup or two, a tweak/removal of Mahamaon and/or Mamudoon since they're practically useless.

In fact, if ASW are gonna make her have such buffs, they might as well make her Diarahan more... useful(?) since there's no way she can use it unless she get's a good combo off of the opponent (which has already been established to almost be luck based now).

Maybe make her J.C an unblockable standing or crouching? (I think it already is but I haven't played P4U1 in a while).

Edited February 18, 2014 by GBAer64

[Dazardz]

Brkrdave's a female!? 0_0 I didn't even know! Damn...

Hmm, why are you mentioning Brkrdave? By the way, he's male. So I'm also guessing you looked at my twitter bio. I'm also male. Yeah it's weird to some people, but I still love him.

But I want this post to be on topic so...

As for what Luminos has said.

From what little I remember from playing A.B.A, she was indeed really risky, but really nice. Good normals, pretty good damage, and more things at the cost of health loss, but she had an unblockable attack. Also a standing overhead. Elizabeth does not, this could be a huge difference in their skill levels. (Don't even listen to me, I feel stupid saying that. I just wanted this to be relevant to gameplay discussion.)

Edited February 13, 2014 by Dazardz

[Luminos564]

Also a standing overhead. Elizabeth does not, this could be a huge difference in their skill levels. (Don't even listen to me, I feel stupid saying that. I just wanted this to be relevant to gameplay discussion.)

Hmm, overhead. I once suggested that j.C be made an overhead move in P4A but was immediately shot down because apparently it'd be "too good, dood". AFAIK, it still isn't an overhead in P4U2. I guess the suggestion isn't so bad now eh?

[Elochai]

Also a standing overhead.

You seem to have forgotten that we already have a standing overhead in the form of AoA. Sure, it's only 38f startup, but if you do 236AB OMC > AoA, no one will see it coming! :roboky:

Shout outs to the gimmick thread.

AoA totally sucks, and I'm joking 100%.

[Lynette]

A.B.A Had a standing Overhead?

[Eshi]

A.B.A Had a standing Overhead?

Dust? =P and a ground unblockable I guess. I can see why the comparison between Liz and ABA makes sense. Maybe one day Liz will actually be strong enough in awakening to compare to ABA. They could start with changing her DP to something that isn't shit.

[Dazardz]

Hmm, overhead. I once suggested that j.C be made an overhead move in P4A but was immediately shot down because apparently it'd be "too good, dood". AFAIK, it still isn't an overhead in P4U2. I guess the suggestion isn't so bad now eh?

5A > 5AA > j.C is really fast, and could lead into some good combos if OMC'd, in vanilla at least. But giving Liz a standing overhead that can't be combo'ed from without OMC is what she deserves.

Edit:

Wooaahh I totally forgot about AoA, but that still sucks:mad:

Edited February 14, 2014 by Dazardz

[OmnixTSC]

I've been trying to come up with something to say for the "Liz is like a watered-down A.B.A." argument, but I have nothing. I really just don't see this in the slightest.

[Eshi]

I've been trying to come up with something to say for the "Liz is like a watered-down A.B.A." argument, but I have nothing. I really just don't see this in the slightest.

The ways in which the characters power up is drastically different, but it's the high risk of their gameplay that makes them similar. ABA is awesome in Moroha mode but if she messes up and gets knocked down 2-3 times then she loses. Liz gets tons of meter and much better tools with mind charge but if she screws up and gets touched then she loses. All the comparison means is that both characters are bad because of their skewed risks but what Liz gets for it is way worse than what ABA gets.

[OmnixTSC]

The ways in which the characters power up is drastically different, but it's the high risk of their gameplay that makes them similar. ABA is awesome in Moroha mode but if she messes up and gets knocked down 2-3 times then she loses. Liz gets tons of meter and much better tools with mind charge but if she screws up and gets touched then she loses. All the comparison means is that both characters are bad because of their skewed risks but what Liz gets for it is way worse than what ABA gets.

But saying the characters both have skewed risk/reward scenarios doesn't make them all that similar. The way both characters approach said scenarios is so drastically different b/c of the difference in system mechanics as well as general play-style. You can't realistically say they're similar when ABA has more tools to address the fact that her risk/reward is skewed when compared to some of the other characters in GG. Liz doesn't have many tools pre-awakening or in awakening that helps her deal with her problems, and there aren't any mechanics in the game itself that help her either.

[Zephyrion22]

I've been trying to come up with something to say for the "Liz is like a watered-down A.B.A." argument, but I have nothing. I really just don't see this in the slightest.

Liz needs an install super in Awakening, like Goku Moroha, during which she completely goes berserk, then^^. But yeah those two are set apart by a lot of things. A.B.A Moroha is huge risk and reward in Moroha, and it's a mode you definitely want to manually enter at all costs. As Liz, you rarely want to force Awakening at full health, and Liz herself doesn't fundamentally change in this mode as she doesn't get any significant boost in mobility, mixup, okizeme, or space control. Plus her Awakening supers and skills are either situational or almost useless.

[Luminos564]

Liz needs an install super in Awakening, like Goku Moroha, during which she completely goes berserk, then^^. But yeah those two are set apart by a lot of things. A.B.A Moroha is huge risk and reward in Moroha, and it's a mode you definitely want to manually enter at all costs. As Liz, you rarely want to force Awakening at full health, and Liz herself doesn't fundamentally change in this mode as she doesn't get any significant boost in mobility, mixup, okizeme, or space control. Plus her Awakening supers and skills are either situational or almost useless.

How about if Mind Charge actually forced Awakening at whatever current health you have for a limited time? Considering all of Lizzie's specials are, technically, SP skills from the Persona games, it makes much more sense for them to get suped-up by doing this. You could call this a "Forced Awakening" state and balance it by not allowing this mode to come with a free 50SP. As a bonus, you could assign Mind Charge to the A-version (236236A) only leaving the 236236B version for a brand new, actually useful super (I vote Pralaya). This would also remove SB Mind Charge because, lets be honest: nobody even uses the thing. The only bad situation I've come to notice with this is, if you do hit the point for the actual Awakening while already in Forced Awakening, the game won't recognize it and will not give you that free 50SP but that could be mitigated by giving Lizzie better Invigorate gain.

Her Awakening supers do need work, particularly Ghastly Wail D-version. It has no use whatsoever currently. It can't be comboed into nor can it be used as a reversal like C and SB versions can. It doesn't deal more damage than either of them to boot, making its presence in her movelist a waste, much like the current Mahamaon and Mamudoon.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Luminos564

[OmnixTSC]

Kohatsu 2/19:

Elizabeth vs. S.Yosuke

Elizabeth vs. Yosuke

Well...that was kind of...I don't even know what to say. There's nothing to take away from this, sadly. :/

[Dazardz]

Well...that was kind of...I don't even know what to say. There's nothing to take away from this, sadly. :/

Isn't more than half of the videos in that thread like this though? I don't know what to discuss when I see no great match videos.

[Elochai]

I think by month three of P4U, there were decent Liz players (being recorded). Unfortunately, this isn't really the case in this game with exception to Damosu/Ta.

Then again, they're two different games.

[Luminos564]

Isn't more than half of the videos in that thread like this though? I don't know what to discuss when I see no great match videos.

I think we've reached the point where we've discussed everything in length to what is currently available. Unfortunately, the videos themselves do not paint a pretty picture. And I hate being the designated pessimist here, but I think we've exhausted all that we CAN talk about. Players like Damosu/Ta provided some new things, but that's about it. The fact remains that Lizzie is scarcely played (or at least recorded) and its even rarer now to see her pull a win.

I think by month three of P4U, there were decent Liz players (being recorded). Unfortunately, this isn't really the case in this game with exception to Damosu/Ta.

Then again, they're two different games.

Exactly. I know there ARE players besides Damosu/Ta, but lets be real; almost none have stepped up to the plate to show us anything new. It virtually feels like nobody wants to bother with her and that makes me a rather sad Eldritch Abomination.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Luminos564

[OmnixTSC]

Players like Damosu and Ta...

Okay, this has gone on long enough. Do you guys STILL not know that Damosu and Ta are the same person? If so, I'm pretty entertained at the moment.

[Elochai]

I thought the / implied "or"? As if to say you can call him by either?

[OmnixTSC]

I thought the / implied "or"? As if to say you can call him by either?

I actually assumed you did know b/c of that, but I wasn't 100% sure. I think the rest of the group doesn't know, though.

As for actual discussion...does anyone have any ideas based on what we know about Liz at this point? I have some things I want to point out later this week (or maybe next week) based on some things we can probably make use of in the new game that we aren't seeing much of at this point.