[P4AU] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[RifleAvenger]

Hmm, yes. Mahamaon and Mamudoon being borderline useless is indeed a waste of a slot for the movelist. But as you said, making instant death practical can lead to balance problems. Fortunately, this can be solved fairly easily without actually resulting in an overpowering move. What if, hypothetically, the moves themselves were changed around? As in instead of causing instant death, they dealt a set amount of damage?

If you'll notice, Lizzie's Mahamaon and Mamudoon are different from Naoto's in that they cause over 20,000 damage thus leading to the opponent's "death". Well, you could rework them that they normally deal damage like other 50SP skills, only breaking the 20K damage mark if they were to kill the opponent anyway like Order-Sol's Dragon Install Sakkai Instant Kill. It would also be in line with the source material as there are Light and Dark skills that do damage, not just instant death and as a bonus, Lizzie can actually use them (provided they remove the awful detonation time and disappearing on hit/block).

I like this idea. Turning Mahamaon and Mamudoon into Eternal White and Eternal Black would be appreciated. Especially since Ghastly Wail seems downright pathetic these days (though we're practically spending a super's worth of SP on SB moves to do a decent combo anyways, so whatev).

Frankly, Liz really seems like the Anti-Justice and Kliff. Like those boss characters, she's included for funsies (hence why she has stuff like instant kills), but unlike them she's horrible instead of overpowered. It's this feeling that irritates me far more than her being weak; it's like Arcsys never really intended her to be a legit character in this game.

[Luminos564]

I like this idea. Turning Mahamaon and Mamudoon into Eternal White and Eternal Black would be appreciated. Especially since Ghastly Wail seems downright pathetic these days (though we're practically spending a super's worth of SP on SB moves to do a decent combo anyways, so whatev).

Yeah I'm not happy how Ghastly Wail is now barely used. It seems like the © version is still the go to ender since the (D) version has no chance to be comboed into, while the (SB) version is just too high an investment even though it can be charged up.

Frankly, Liz really seems like the Anti-Justice and Kliff. Like those boss characters, she's included for funsies (hence why she has stuff like instant kills), but unlike them she's horrible instead of overpowered. It's this feeling that irritates me far more than her being weak; it's like Arcsys never really intended her to be a legit character in this game.

Alternatively, they simply don't know how to implement her properly. If you look at each of the other characters, you'll notice how they have clearly defined gameplans. Lizzie has been given, in theory, a tool for virtually every situation:

-Can inflict virtually all status ailments, but especially Fear and is as of now, the only character capable of forcing Negative Penalty on the opponent.

-Her specials all have large motions and cover a good amount of ground.

-Has grab normals and a devastating command grab in Awakening.

-Awakening is unique to her and changes her powers to match.

-She is the only one to gain meter differently.

-Can heal a lot of health potentially.

All fine in theory and on paper. The problem is that all she has doesn't mesh well at all. Characters designed to be able to do everything, will end up not excelling at anything. And that's where Lizzie's greatest weakness lies. All other characters excel at something, but she can only offer up a half-assed attempt at what one character may excel at. Don't get me wrong: what she can do, like Elochai mentioned isn't necessarily bad. It's just not as good as what another character might do.

[TheArm05]

Liz's tools make her tricky to balance really. They intended her to be a glass cannon in P4U1 based on her tools and damage. However I think they intentionally make her not very good because she would be incredibly unfun to play against if she was top tier. I think it is comparable to someone like Arakune being top tier. When Arakune is top tier people hate playing against him and start to dislike the game.

There was a time early in P4U1 that I was the best player in my local scene. I would go to casuals and beat everyone with Liz repeatedly and they HATED it. They hated getting randomly hit for 4-5k, they hated my status effects, and they hated my Thanatos mixups. Eventually they grinded the matchup enough that they found where to press buttons and how to react to my pressure and they began to start winning more and more against me. However if Liz was top tier and was able to force this kind of playstyle on people even at the highest level it would just be unfun honestly.

It pains me to say it but I don't think Liz will ever be a good character and it is intentional.

[Luminos564]

Liz's tools make her tricky to balance really. They intended her to be a glass cannon in P4U1 based on her tools and damage. However I think they intentionally make her not very good because she would be incredibly unfun to play against if she was top tier. I think it is comparable to someone like Arakune being top tier. When Arakune is top tier people hate playing against him and start to dislike the game.

Just because something is difficult to balance, that doesn't mean you can just give a half-assed attempt and call it a day. Balance implies you put some actual effort into a character. And to be perfectly honest, people complain all the damn time about what is and isn't overpowered. Hell, people complain about Arakune even now despite him being a far cry from his CT days.

There was a time early in P4U1 that I was the best player in my local scene. I would go to casuals and beat everyone with Liz repeatedly and they HATED it. They hated getting randomly hit for 4-5k, they hated my status effects, and they hated my Thanatos mixups. Eventually they grinded the matchup enough that they found where to press buttons and how to react to my pressure and they began to start winning more and more against me. However if Liz was top tier and was able to force this kind of playstyle on people even at the highest level it would just be unfun honestly.

Well no offense, and as much as I hate using this phrase, those people that complained about P4A Lizzie deserved a "learn2play" response (which they did). I could take their complaints seriously if they used Kanji (who DOES have a hard time against Lizzie). But if they are using Mituru, Yu, Aigis and anyone else closer to the top of the Tier Pyramid then I'd kindly ask them to go and frak off. As for being top tier, I don't think anyone here is asking for ASW to do that for Lizzie. At least, I know I am not. But I don't think it is too much to ask for a character that can actually stand her ground a bit as opposed to being steamrolled by virtually anyone.

It pains me to say it but I don't think Liz will ever be a good character and it is intentional.

Then I sincerely hope someone at ASW realizes the problems that Lizzie has and addresses them. Hopefully they are not dumb enough to force most Lizzie players to trudge through P4U2 with a sorely gimped character. And if they are, then they have no right to complain if and when many of them quit the game and take their coin elsewhere.

[Elochai]

I suppose the "hard to balance" argument is a fair one, and I somewhat agree (as formerly stated though, this isn't an excuse to shrug balance). I think if one asks most Liz players how to make her more "in sync" with the rest of the cast, things like better mix up, increased utility of x tool, better pressure, etc would all be mentioned. The fundamental question, though, is "to what extent can you improve her w out her becoming ridiculous? "

Perhaps it is to be said that this is why she's better in awakening, because it's "fair". She would be better without the prerequisite of losing a ton of HP. Nevertheless, this whole discussion is really just roundabout honestly. No matter what, in the end, we're just going to have to "deal with it."

I guess this is the kind of discussion that we're led to when the footage of our character is in stagnation .

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[Luminos564]

She would be better without the prerequisite of losing a ton of HP. Nevertheless, this whole discussion is really just roundabout honestly. No matter what, in the end, we're just going to have to "deal with it."

I guess this is the kind of discussion that we're led to when the footage of our character is in stagnation .

Yeah, I'm noticing that too. For every point I've made, there's unforeseen consequences that can be applied. TheArm05 is right in the sense that having an OP character is not fun to fight. That said, it is equally unfun to have your character be bottom of the barrel and having to climb mountains to get by, while everyone else just takes an elevator ride upward.

"Deal with it" we'll have to, but you'll have to forgive me if I sound a little bit salty over that . And yes, video stagnation is a terrible thing. We got some CMVs, but very little match recordings and those that we have, are often the same regular suspects.

[OmnixTSC]

I could take their complaints seriously if they used Kanji (who DOES have a hard time against Lizzie).

Nah, the Liz vs Kanji MU is actually pretty arguable. If anything it's 5.5-4.5 Liz's favor, 5-5, or 5.5-4.5 Kanji's favor

As far as the discussion for "how Liz could be altered to fix her issues" goes, I feel as if things might have to change drastically. I remember that during a number of conversations I've had with bace he brought up the notion of completely changing Liz being the only "true" way of fixing her. It was kind of an off an on discussion as we went back and forth between this and what tools Liz could get to compensate for her faults. There were some other players that agreed with the former when we talked with them about it.

I'm starting to see that (from what we've been able to grasp so far) Liz may need to have a definitive play-style in order to avoid being an above average jack-of-all-trades should they buff her or...well, being subpar.

Also, we can finally play neutral with Liz! All those days of playing Hakumen can now be reflected in my Liz play b/c her neutral is almost the same (with beams, of course)! Now all we need is for Arcsys to finally decide on how to "fix" Liz so we can focus on something (mixup, oki, pressure, etc.).

[Luminos564]

Nah, the Liz vs Kanji MU is actually pretty arguable. If anything it's 5.5-4.5 Liz's favor, 5-5, or 5.5-4.5 Kanji's favor

I was mostly basing this off of P4A as opposed to P4U2. In P4U2, it isn't clear if Kanji is still the fish at the bottom of the barrel.

As far as the discussion for "how Liz could be altered to fix her issues" goes, I feel as if things might have to change drastically. I remember that during a number of conversations I've had with bace he brought up the notion of completely changing Liz being the only "true" way of fixing her. It was kind of an off an on discussion as we went back and forth between this and what tools Liz could get to compensate for her faults. There were some other players that agreed with the former when we talked with them about it.

Out of curiosity, how drastically would Lizzie need to be changed and what conclusions did you guys draw? Like what specifically could be improved and in what way? If you don't want to say it here then just message me in private.

I'm starting to see that (from what we've been able to grasp so far) Liz may need to have a definitive play-style in order to avoid being an above average jack-of-all-trades should they buff her or...well, being subpar.

My sentiments exactly.

[OmnixTSC]

I was mostly basing this off of P4A as opposed to P4U2. In P4U2, it isn't clear if Kanji is still the fish at the bottom of the barrel.

I was basing my analysis off of P4A as well. The MU really isn't as bad as people think...just, people don't play it properly lol.

Out of curiosity, how drastically would Lizzie need to be changed and what conclusions did you guys draw? Like what specifically could be improved and in what way? If you don't want to say it here then just message me in private.

We didn't really come up with anything specific. Just a lot of "she should focus on rushdown/mixup/neutral" or something along those lines. I personally think her moveset is fine, but they would have to alter the properties on all of her options to some extent so that she can be geared towards a particular style. She can be a "jack-of-all-trades-for-everything-but-this-one-thing-she's-good-at."

An example would be for a rushdown oriented Liz. They could allow Liz to reliably apply pressure with her own normals while something like 2C is active (I'm excluding OMCs). They could give Thanatos a low hitting Persona normal (albeit one with reasonable startup), for instance. Liz could make use of some more high/low scenarios in general. Every other character has more viable high/low mixups (or more viable mixups in general) than Liz.

There's one thing about Liz that I've been meaning to point out for a while, though some of you probably noticed. A lot of her moveset fulfills arguably the same functions at different parts of the screen. They all (with the exception of j.C, 5D, j.D, and maybe Bufu) force your opponent to stay in place if you choose to use them for that purpose. 5C > 2C, 5C > 2OMC > 5C, Garu > OMC > Stuff, Zio > OMC > Stuff. All of these provide you with some way of continuing to apply pressure to your opponent without having any real mixup off of these tools. You often have to spend an additional 50 SP if stagger pressure doesn't work or your opponent refuses to twitch and get hit or grabbed. It's kind of depressing when your only means of landing a hit stems from, "Oh, they messed up. Yay..."

[Zephyrion22]

I like this idea. Turning Mahamaon and Mamudoon into Eternal White and Eternal Black would be appreciated. Especially since Ghastly Wail seems downright pathetic these days (though we're practically spending a super's worth of SP on SB moves to do a decent combo anyways, so whatev).

The huge problem with Ghastly Wail as of now, is that Bufu eats the 2C bonus, which is detrimental for making this super actually useful, as the combo video showed, you have to use EX Bufu high enough, then perfectly time your 2C to make it whiff, then time your AoA into OMC into super.

Now given the level of most of the Lizzies we've seen so far, I can hardly see anybody having the meter + corner + execution to actually pull that off. doesn't mean it will be utterly useless though, just harder and more situational but I can def see 2C> mind charge> 214 AB> etc becoming a viable route when people actually take the time to learn its visibly strict timing

[Luminos564]

I was basing my analysis off of P4A as well. The MU really isn't as bad as people think...just, people don't play it properly lol.

I suppose I can concede to that. I've had my share of Kanji players constantly attempting his Bet Ya Can't Take This only to receive a Fistful O' Loitnin (durr hurr) for their trouble. Though now with access to Primal Force, I doubt this will be the case again.

It's kind of depressing when your only means of landing a hit stems from, "Oh, they messed up. Yay..."

Yeah that's one of the things that bothers me. Another is Lizzie's SP consumption. While true that Lizzie gains it automatically, she also does not gain any from her own attacks either. And P4U2 only increased the necessity of our SB skills but since using SP actively prevents Invigorate from working for a set time, her meter gain suffers quite a bit unlike the others who can use an SB skill and then start gaining SP in the same combo from their attacks.

[RifleAvenger]

I personally wouldn't mind being a "Jack of all trades" if the weight of the areas we exceed the enemies weaknesses in balanced the advantage they gain in their specialty area. The problem is, Liz doesn't do that to most characters. Look at Narukami for example; he's got better neutral, better pressure, better mixup, and in the first game had nearly unmatched oki. He's even got some anti-zoning tools, allowing him to defeat us in the one area Liz may otherwise have an advantage. In fact, he himself is a sort of "jack of all trades character," and a far stronger one that Liz at that!

Personally, I'd like if Liz could actually get something out of her ability to make the foe hold still for awhile. Make the D moves just a bit faster, harder to react to (and allow poison to be applied more easily for racking up damage versus the blocking opponent), let 2C be fast enough to catch people jumping out instead of having to make a hard read using bufu or j.D, give us a way to do an overhead in pressure that doesn't require a meter-intensive set-up or being horribly unsafe on block. And of course, I'd like to be able to deal a fair deal of damage, partly because I saw that as an important aesthetic/fluff feature for Liz.

Yeah that's one of the things that bothers me. Another is Lizzie's SP consumption. While true that Lizzie gains it automatically, she also does not gain any from her own attacks either. And P4U2 only increased the necessity of our SB skills but since using SP actively prevents Invigorate from working for a set time, her meter gain suffers quite a bit unlike the others who can use an SB skill and then start gaining SP in the same combo from their attacks.

I agree with this. Either our passive SP gain should be increased a bit, or SP should keep generating mid-combo post SB skill (though maybe at a slower pace).

Edited February 7, 2014 by RifleAvenger

[OmnixTSC]

Either our passive SP gain should be increased a bit, or SP should keep generating mid-combo post SB skill (though maybe at a slower pace).

Liz's SP gain should work like Hakumen's heat gain in BB (I don't know why it's so hard for them to do that). It would have to be a slightly gimped Haku-esque meter, but it could work relatively the same way. Have a decrease in the SP gain rate after using specials, with the extent of the decrease being dependent on whether you used a normal or SB special. If it wasn't for the fact that OMC'ing kills meter gain, we wouldn't have as many issues with meter gain. I'm not saying they should change that, as it makes perfect sense that OMCs work that way. It just sucks that it inconveniences Liz who is reliant on meter to do everything.

[Putin]

Make her DP useful, maybe an untechable throw (still bad, but not as bad), same deal with her guard cancel.

I know some will say that it's risky considering she constantly gains meter, but look at Hakumen. He does the same thing and has a functioning guard cancel but no one's ever complained about it. If they're so worried about it, they could make it whiff on low profile moves or something, but it would be an actual physical attack instead of... whatever she currently has is.

Make her 2A a frame faster, maybe her 5A too but its range is great so it's not as crucial.

Make 5B slightly faster. Maybe a couple of frames less recovery, and its startup faster by one frame. I know there are other 5Bs with similar recovery, but they come out a lot faster. If the opponent sees Liz throwing out 5B they have tons of time to jump and punish, rendering it ineffective as a neutral tool.

Make 2C faster to catch people autopiloting upback. If they're actually paying attention and wait a bit before upbacking after 5C, then we punish with A Bufu (which leads to nothing in this version?)

I'd probably have more potentially silly suggestions based on her P4U2 version, but I've hardly watched any footage so idk. She still seems shit though even in awakening. The only interesting awakening buff is double Zio but I've only seen it used as a combo filler so yeah.

I'll be willing to buy the game when it comes out on consoles as long as they make my character a real character. Or at least make the top ones less ridiculous so it doesn't feel you're fighting the game instead of the player, which is what got me off P4U in the first place.

[Luminos564]

So I just watched the most recent uploads of Lizzie vs. Junpei, Mitsuru and a Yosuke. And I get that the Lizzie players were most likely new and still getting used to her, but DAMN watching them being able to attack with impunity while Lizzie was effectively forced to sit there and take it was one of the hardest things I've had a chance to witness. About the only plus I found was that SB Ghastly Wail was able to grab Mitsuru out of her hop-cancel J.B (she was still airborne at the time). It didn't win the match but at least it gave me some new info to chew on.

I'd like to know how Damosu would have handled these 3. Mitsuru is still an uphill battle, Yosuke's Furious Action can stuff a lot of out approaches (like J.B, 5B and even 5D) and Junpei wasn't especially devastating, but annoying nonetheless.

Liz's SP gain should work like Hakumen's heat gain in BB (I don't know why it's so hard for them to do that). It would have to be a slightly gimped Haku-esque meter, but it could work relatively the same way. Have a decrease in the SP gain rate after using specials, with the extent of the decrease being dependent on whether you used a normal or SB special. If it wasn't for the fact that OMC'ing kills meter gain, we wouldn't have as many issues with meter gain. I'm not saying they should change that, as it makes perfect sense that OMCs work that way. It just sucks that it inconveniences Liz who is reliant on meter to do everything.

Yeah I agree especially now that we're no longer classified under the same glass-cannon status that we had in P4A. Well, we've still got the "glass" part of that, but "cannon" is no longer valid considering how much meter we have to burn just to match the damage of the rest of the casts' meterless shenanigans.

[Dazardz]

It just sucks that it inconveniences Liz who is reliant on meter to do everything.

Everything!? ArcSystemWorks please do something. Give her Kanji health or Kanji speed. Please.

Now I'm going to watch the video Elochai posted, hoping it's not just another Hamaon Combo Video. If it's a match video, I'll come back with some things to say about it.

[Elochai]

Might've not seen this correctly, but it seems that 5B CH causes float? Makes me wonder if you can combo into 236D > stuff or 5B CH/air hit > 2B > j.B > j.A > etc.

Edited February 7, 2014 by Elochai

[TheArm05]

5B CH causing float would have been awesome in P4U1. We would be able to go straight into Garu loops meterless RIP. Now (if it is true which video is it?) it just seems ok.

Woo not so rare footage of Liz being shit on by Mitsuru. Nothing to see there unless you want to see Mitsuru pressing buttons and Liz (still) dying from >50%.

[Elochai]

5B CH causing float would have been awesome in P4U1. We would be able to go straight into Garu loops meterless RIP. Now (if it is true which video is it?) it just seems ok.

Woo not so rare footage of Liz being shit on by Mitsuru. Nothing to see there unless you want to see Mitsuru pressing buttons and Liz (still) dying from >50%.

If the timestamp doesn't work, go to 8:32. Link.

Would 5B air hit > 2AB > 236D not work in this game?

[Putin]

If you go a few seconds back you'll see another CH 5B which definitely doesn't cause float. In the latter case Liz was probably too late with the DP punish and caught Yosuke doing rising j.something

[Elochai]

Ah, yeah. You're right. My bad!

[OmnixTSC]

Ugh...guys. We could already do CH 5B > D Garu. Did you forget already?

[RifleAvenger]

Ugh...guys. We could already do CH 5B > D Garu. Did you forget already?

Yeah, was about to say. On the rare occasion I actually get a CH with the move, its one of my favorite things. The other being raw CH D Garudyne on the dash happy Yosuke.

Sadly, I'm not too confident there will be any real big updates to game balance for P4U2. BB and GG get a good number of revisions per game, but if I remember correctly P4A only got one post release and it wasn't very game-changing. I'm not expecting any more attention to be given to Ultimax.

The only thing good about all this is that I finally understand how Tsubaki players must feel.

Everything!? ArcSystemWorks please do something. Give her Kanji health or Kanji speed. Please.

Now I'm going to watch the video Elochai posted, hoping it's not just another Hamaon Combo Video. If it's a match video, I'll come back with some things to say about it.

Kanji health and damage I'd take willingly (more damage than HP for me please), but I definitely don't want Kanji SPEED.

[Dazardz]

Did I say speed!? I'm thinking backwards these days. And yes, I did mean damage Rifle.

Now that I think about it, is Liz faster than Kanji?

[Zephyrion22]

OK It's kinda stupid, but this discussion made me wonder how could liz be buffed without making her stupid, and what actual buffs she could get, from the simplest to the most crazy stuff (yeah I have time to lose in buses, subways and stuff). All of this is just things that will never happen (yay, wishful thinking, why bother). As it is more of an (abnormally long) attempt to express how I would like liz to be re-designed, and not anything constructive or informative (heck, I'm not even sure if this is a proper place to post that), the rest is in spoilers. Feel free not to read this^^

Ok, so a lot of people have been thinking about how to buff Liz to make her more than a "Jack of all trades". I still think that the idea of making different characters pre and post Awakening, with the second having a lot more possibilities is the right way. So here is what I think Liz could resemble if one went all the way to make it happen

Simple buffs suggestions

+ overall damage slightly buffed : not 6k on everything, but 4K on non-ground combos should be a given

+ AoA startup and recovery reduced : still quite slow and punishable but fast enough to make it viable

+5BB + 1 on block, because having a move actually useful for staggers, and allowing to safely go into Persona pressure would be appreciated

+2C untech time back to P4U1

+ Liz's counter assault is fully invincible

+ Invigorate : on cooldown, continues to generate meter, but at a slower rate. Invigorate icon indicates the change

-/+2C> B Bufu reliable again but B Bufu having less freeze time than SB Bufu (possibility to recover as you land on the ground for example)

-Ghastly wail minimum and raw damage increased without the 2C and fear bonuses, damage with bonuses remains the same

# Mahamaon/Mamudoon completely changed : faster recovery, no longer disappears on block. Mamudoon and Mahamaon have the same recovery and activation. Becoming two parts supers : first time you input it is the summon, and after a long time (longer than it is now, I mean) a "ready" icon appears. If you input it a second time with the icon, it is an IK. You can input the actual hit at any time, it will hit without the last hit IKing, like Naoto. Excellent P1/P2 regardless, making all the versions useful for screen control and hit confirming as well as proper, dangerous okizeme tactics

Pre-Awakening/Post Awakening differences (the crazy stuff)

-her specials changes are okay for the most part, as said earlier Tweaking Awakening Bufu and giving Garus enough untech time would be nice.

- A fun change could be that if any projectile/hitbox touches AW garu without touching Liz , its hit hitbox is activated (turns into the giant tornado)

- N-AW 5C : comes out a bit faster, hitbox expanded upwards/ AW a bit slower startup , but possibility to delay the second hit by maintaining 5C. New move, 5CC (here goes the crazy stuff)> slow move that teleports Thanatos behind the opponent for a third slash, allowing for sandwiches, obviously rollable. big recovery, but has a proper OMC point like any normal. To obtain the new persona command, you have to hit the button while Liz havent recovered yet ( so that you can still 5C> 5C or stuff)

-N-AW 2C : guard point changed, loses if the opponent uses a move that does a set amount of damage, but the guard point goes through all the charge of charged 2C. P-AW 2CC, second, bigger roar that vacuums the opponent, ideal against jump-backs and for corner setups, no guard point on 2CC and visible gap , but recovers immediately after the hit, like a charged 2C

-N-AW jC : both Liz and the persona recover faster > AW slower recovery for both liz and the persona> jCC> second jC that automatically ground bounces no matter what. Second jC don't allow the persona to stay in place, meaning the pressure ends there. mainly a last resort, and a way to hit-confirm jC CH from anywhere

N-AW 5D/jD faster persona startup : AW > same startup as P4U2 and recovery is a bit slower for Liz, but now chargeable move as well, travels farther the more it is charged, useful for gimmicky resets and corner traps

N-AW 2D> Thanatos spits the poison much faster, but Liz as slower recovery, poison unescapable after 5C, but Persona is easily punishable and Liz has to face the possibility of a conter-attack> AW poison much slower, but Liz recovers a lot faster, long before the poison is spit out :if another persona attack is used, Thanatos attacks from the poison spot. Becomes a more okizeme/combo-oriented tool

-Randomizer : New command 2 [8] D : N-AW, faster buffer, faster startup. possible to combo into it. doesn't inflict negative penalty, but status effects based on a cycle >Silence>confusion> etc : one thing that would be original is : one effect exchanges her SP with the opponent, so you would have to be wary of the cycle like Teddie's items.> AW slower buffer, slower startup, always inflicts negative Penalty, but static difference changed : if it touches, Liz and the opponent recovers at the same time. It means that it would need proper setups in-combo to avoid having the opponent just running away.

This buffs would mean that pre-Awakening Liz is an overall balanced character that lacks damage and offensive flexibility, but makes up for that with faster attacks and proper defensive tools (a.k.a useful randomizer).The said move could also be useful to pack up numerous statuses ailments. Post-Awakening Liz would be more vulnerable, with overall slower recovery on persona attacks and slower randomizer, but makes it up with her new persona moves, giving her proper pressure, with staggers and the ability to create actual rock paper scissors setups that prevents the opponent from just sitting there and block. Additionally, she would have more useful supers, improved specials, and varied and fearsome okizeme setups in the corner. She really would be the "last chance" character , with great risk and reward.

Am I aware that this is all a waste of time ? Yes. This post is not about saying that Liz needs to be top or anything, but is more here to show that Liz is not impossible to balance. As a boss character (and as it fits her personality as a character) , Liz should stay unorthodox and fun, but making an unorthodox character requires to take risks, and give her tools that may be broken, in order to see what she could be like. Rambling over, those who stayed long enough to read until this point should be praised for their patience, as none of this is even good or useful reading material.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Zephyrion22