[P4AU] SHO Minazuki - Combo Thread

[Lucalibur]

Not a big thing? This is probably one of the biggest deals to me. I grinded that nonstop on release and  was disappointed to find out you couldn't do it normally, but it actually being possible now opens up so many new routes and better cost efficiency when extending combos for more damage.

[AigisPlayer]

Probably prorates too much to get more damage than normal bnbs and thats why he said that

"You pissed me off!" Sho taimu 2014

[Tong]

Not a big thing? This is probably one of the biggest deals to me. I grinded that nonstop on release and  was disappointed to find out you couldn't do it normally, but it actually being possible now opens up so many new routes and better cost efficiency when extending combos for more damage.

Basically what @AigisPlayer said. Unlike Minazuki, Sho's routes prorates worse and inflict less damage. I dont have the exact numbers on me, I'll try to figure better something later, but spending 25 for extra 100~200 damage doesnt seem like a good deal to me. It might be worth spending 100 meter (SB Metsuga, SB Shouga, Engetsu Bousou ender), in case it's enough to finish off the round.

[Shin Oni]

Ehhh I think it's best for the high/low mixup rather than combos. Maybe to finish off the round sure the combos are good but yea that proation kills most of what would be great about it in combos.

[AigisPlayer]

2B CH > 5B > 5C > j.B > j.C(1) > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B~B~C > 236A~A~Kara helmbreaker > SB moonsmasher 5056 damage for 100 meter (only for tall characters of course because jump loop) 

[AigisPlayer]

the shit that i have just come up with lol 
(love this starter) CH 2B > 5B > 5C > j.B > j.C(1) > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B~B~C > 236A~A~Kara > 214AB > OMB > 2C > SB moonsmasher 
125 meter + OMB for 5498 off of CH 2B 
i'm reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally feeling it right now...... 
 

[Doonpa]

I was able to hit this today just messing around with Sho:

 

vs airborne opponent

 

2B 5B 5C j.A j.C(2) j.236AB land 2A 5B 5C 2B 2AB 236B~B~C land 214AA ~3.6k for 25 meter vs Narukami.

 

This is incredibly finicky but it does show that j.236AB land 2A stuff can net good damage under the right circumstances. I haven't tried Sweep 236B~B-C/D~AB stuff yet since I don't really play anymore but are you guys sure that its not worth 25% to extend a combo via j.236AB land 2A at least vs characters you can't jump loop? Sho's proration sucks and that hurts extended combos but I'm sure if done early in a combo the 25% wouldn't be too bad. Even if you have to end the extension at Sweep instead of 236AAA or whatever, I think it would be fine especially against characters that you can hit with j.B dj.B j.C fuzzy guard off sweep knockdown. 

[AigisPlayer]

I guess it depends on who it'll work on and the situations in which it's better to go for it. TBH i havent tried the kara into 2a stuff yet, most i've messed with is using kara > moonsmasher or kara > 214ab > OMB combos that i havent gotten to work the kinks out of yet (and uh..i sorta suck at getting the kara when i want it..) by 2.0 i guess it wont matter as much but if it can squeeze out a little more damage for now against loopless characters, might be worth it..

"You pissed me off!" Sho taimu 2014

[Tong]

I'm preeeetty sure the 2A pickup is character specific because Sho's hitbox on 2A is terrible vertically.

[AigisPlayer]

Time for a new list then (boooo)

"You pissed me off!" Sho taimu 2014

[Tong]

Might as well wait for 2.0 where it's apparently universal.

[AigisPlayer]

Yeah but who knows how far away that is

"You pissed me off!" Sho taimu 2014

[AigisPlayer]

Alright then good news bad news time bout kara > 2a combos so yeah

Bad: barely works on anyone... i have only gotten it to work on narukami, chie, marie, and ken (of course nothing works on teddie.....) which is a bummer since characters that can't be hit by jump loops continue to be a pain to deal extra damage to..

Good: hey man, narukami and ken players getting you down? Well style on em with your cool 3.8k combos using kara > 2a. 1) for the record i used sweep > 236a~a~kara while i was testing stuff 2) i honestly like the damage that you get off of 5B or 2B punishes using 25 meter compared to meterless since it doesnt rely on a standing confirm. For example the combo i was working on; 2B > 5B > sweep > 236a~a~kara > 2a > 5b(1) > 2b > sweep > 236b~(slight delay)B~C > 214a~a was netting me around 3.8k for 25 meter, more if i went for a super route or a safe jump if you choose to end at the sweep. Off of B starter routes i didnt have too many problems but this is not possible with 2a starter. It's a good amount of damage for punishing a someone when you dont have time to 2C but still want a damaging combo.

Verdict: honestly i think its worth at least knowing a route or two for matchups against those characters so you can squeeze out even more damage to seal the kill or take off more health before they go into awakening, but for other characters you dont have a use for these combos, so just stick to using that meter for a mixup or escape options. I'll probably see what more combos you can with it this weekend.

"You pissed me off!" Sho taimu 2014

[Koga_Noid]

Lately I've been getting FC j.236B on people and all I've been doing is just the High Speed Movement BnB. You guys got anything that's more optimized?

 

[AigisPlayer]

Helm breaker is a pretty weak starter so you're better off just going a safe jump or bnb route

"You pissed me off!" Sho taimu 2014

[Koga_Noid]

Was in a labbing mood and came up with some FC 5A stuff, works anywhere.

5AA < 2B < 5C < 5B < 236BB < jc < delay j.B < 2B < 2AB < 236B < DP < 236236B = 3816

If you do the usual High Speed Movement stuff after the second set of rekkas, it's 4306 with A Moon Smasher and 4706 with EX.
 

 

[Monokeros]

An easy combo off of wakeup EX moonsmasher using OMB dl = delay

EX moon(2) < OMB < (walk forward)< 2C < 5A < 5C < 2B(2) < 2AB > 236BdlBC > 214AA > EX moon builds 2 meter (training mode gives 10 for first hit so it ends at 12) 

You can omit the walk forward if your opponent is in the corner.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Monokeros

[narga21]

hey i improved on that 5a fc combo. 5aa sweep 236bdlb jc j.c 5c hop j.c 5b 5c 2b sweep 236b dp1 236236b 4258.

[Koga_Noid]

hey i improved on that 5a fc combo. 5aa sweep 236bdlb jc j.c 5c hop j.c 5b 5c 2b sweep 236b dp1 236236b 4258.

I just gotta get the hop stuff down, they either tech before I can get the 5C out, or on rare occasions they get behind me.

Been using a slightly easier one instead:

5AA < 2B < 5C < 5B < 236B < delay 6B < high speed movement cancel < 236A < delay 6A < jc < late j.B < 2B < 2AB < 236B < DP < 236236B = 4218
If you get them to the corner with this then you can do the rush super two more times after that for 6218, and of course you can do 236A < HSM cancel < 214A < 4A for 3537

[R4KID]

Best that I could get off of a SB Metsuga Instant Overhead Kara Cancel (FC Recovery) is:

j.2369C > AB (SB Metsuga from the Kara Cancel) > 2B > 5B > 5C > 236BB > JC > j.B > 2B > 5B (1 HIT) > 5C > 236AAA.

This combo does around 3200DMG, this was close to the max damage I could get off of 25SP only (for the instant overhead). Though you can do a different route so that you're able to add in two BMB supers.

[ntrisdabess]

I just felt like posting this. Haven't looked at this thread before and everything is so helpful. 

[The Owl says O RLY]

Two small things:

First, optimizing damage off of High Speed Movement > Soaring Fang...

236C > 214A > JC j. B  > 214A > A (1475, +12)

Universal combo. Needs a slight delay before j. B or it won't work. If in awakening you can tack on an A or SB Moon Smasher for more damage.

236C > 214A > JC j. B (1) > j. C (1) > 214A > A (1488, +13)

For when you absolutely need that 13 damage, 1 meter, and character-specific swag. Works on Margaret, Naoto, Narukami, Yosuke, Chie, Kanji, Marie, Ken, Yukari, Aigis, Adachi, Elizabeth, and Rise. The timing is extremely finicky - what works on one character in this list won't necessarily work for another.

Secondly (this is not about combos, strictly speaking): Sho's AOA is ass. Its sole saving grace is that it can cross up. However, sometimes you don't want it to. Sometimes you want another left/right mixup to keep your opponent guessing. Good news! Most of your normals can cancel into AOA, allowing for a (very unsafe without 50 meter) mixup. Due to how far forward Sho's normals move him, you can usually control for spacing at the start of a blockstring and choose to cross up or not. Generally, 5B > AOA will cross up, any number of A normals into AOA will cross up, and 2B depends on the specific case. For example:

2A > 2A > 2B (1) > AOA crosses up

2A > 2A > 2B > AOA does not

2A > 2A > 5A > AOA crosses up at point blank

2A > 4A > 4A > AOA does not

2A > 2A > 5A > 5AA > AOA crosses up

4A > 4A > 4A > AOA does not

2A > 2A > 2A > 2B > 5B > AOA crosses up

2A > 2A > 2A > 2B > 5B (1) > AOA does not

There's lots of other variations. Generally, if the opponent is in the outer half of 5A's range then cancelling into AOA will not cross up. If the opponent blocks a raw 5B at the tip of only 1 hit then cancelling into AOA will not cross up. There are only two in this: 1) 5C > AOA will never cross up no matter what came before it, and 2) AOA will never cross up into the corner.

[The Owl says O RLY]

One of the interesting things about Sho is that he has two roughly equivalent BnB routes, 5B > 5C > 5B > sweep > rekkas and 5B > 2B > 5C > rekkas, yet almost without exception I see Sho players only doing the first route. Let's examine them both in a little more detail. (For the purposes of this post I'm calling the 5B > 5C > 5B route Route 1 and the 5B > 2B > 5C route Route 2.)

First, let's examine our meterless BnBs:

5A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 5B > 2A+B > 236B > delay B > C > 214A > A (2651, +23)

5A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B > B > C > 236A > A > A (2674, +24)

Big deal, right? 23 damage and 1 meter, who cares. Even if you land 3 of these combos per round that's only a difference of 69 damage and 3 meter. Route 2 gets slightly better corner carry, but it's such a small difference that it's barely worth consideration (plus it's not like corner carry was ever an issue with Sho). But let's say we do want the maximum corner carry, via B+D > j. B+D:

5A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 5B > 2A+B > 236B > B+D > j. B+D (2367, +20)

5A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B > B > C > 236A > B+D > j. B+D (2623, +23)

The difference now is 256 damage and 3 meter, plus about two character widths worth of corner carry. That's a little more significant! But maybe you value your blue life too much to ever do that combo. Maybe you're still not convinced there's a practical difference. Let's look at using supers.

5A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 5B > 2A+B > 236B > B+D (1) > 236236B ( 3013, -33)

5A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B > B > C > 236A > 236236A (3074, -33)

61 damage doesn't seem like that big a deal, right? As it turns out, Route 2 has an alternate corner-only variation as well:

5A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B > B > C > 236A > B+D (1) > 236236B (3310, -30)

297 damage and 3 meter is a slightly bigger difference! Maybe you're in awakening and want to use Moon Smasher.

5A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 5B > 2A+B > 236B > B > C > 214A > A > 214214A (3731, -26)

5A > 5AA > 5B > 2B > 5C > 236B > B > C > 236A > B+D (1) > 214214B (3590, -30)

This is one situation where Route 1 comes out ahead, to the tune of 141 damage and 4 meter.

There's three other areas to consider here:

1) Execution. Neither of the routes is particularly hard, but there are some places you may drop them. In Route 1, it's very possible to delay the B Soaring Fang too long and have the opponent tech out, or not delay it enough and whiff something in the ender. In Route 2 it's possible to not input the A Flash Fang fast enough and have the opponent tech out, or input it too fast and it doesn't come out. In the long term this is just a matter of practice; in the short term it can play a factor in your combo route choice, especially once nerves and/or lag get factored in.

2) Consistency/range. The good news is that because 5B travels so far forward both routes are viable from most 5A hits. The only time both combos will fail is if you're at the very tip of 5A, so far out that not even 5AA combos. Route 1 has an advantage here; for example, from a midscreen distance of "point blank, backdash, tap forward" on Chie 5AA > 5B > 5C connects, but 5AA > 5B > 2B does not. This varies from character to character; on Kanji you can be a full backdash away and still connect both combos fully. This is not an issue when the opponent is cornered; there isn't a range at which Route 2 will fail after connecting 5AA. Also note that there are some weird character/distance-specific circumstances in which you connect 5B > 5C > 5B but one or both hits of 2A+B will whiff, ending your combo prematurely. If you think this will happen the solution is a quick 236A > A > A to end the combo with a knockdown. 

3) Futureproofing. Atlus finally acknowledged that hey, maybe they should get 2.0 ported over to consoles at some point. If and when that happens, 5B> 5C > 5B will no longer work; you'll have to use 5B > 2B > 5C whether you like it or not. Given that the damage only gets better, it does you no disadvantage to learn Route 2 and incorporate it into your game now, and it will give you a leg up if we ever get 2.0 (or if you take a trip to Japan).

So there you have it. If you aren't already, you should be using 5B > 2B > 5C in almost all of your combos unless a) you're very far away and not absolutely sure it will connect or b) you're in Awakening and have 50 meter to spend on a Moon Smasher combo. The damage and meter benefits are small but very real and Sho is generally a pretty low-damage character, so you should be seeking to optimize your damage on every opportunity you get.

Edited November 12, 2015 by The Owl says O RLY
Edited to reflect a more optimal Moon Smasher combo

[The Owl says O RLY]

Fun with 2C fatal and kara SB Destructive Fang:

2C FC > 2B > 5B > 5C > 236B > B > jc j. B > 5C > hc j. C > 2B > 2A+B > 236A > A > kara A+B > 2A > 5B (1) > 2B > 2A+B > 236A > 236236A (5457, -42)

Uses 75 meter and builds 33, so you have to have at least 42 to start. If you don't have 150 meter to blow on the combo this route is actually pretty efficient. If you're in Awakening, A Moon Smasher at the end adds 120 damage.