Kokonoe banned from Rebel Up tournament series

[Maho]

Banning specific things a character can do has been done numerous times in FGs tournaments, for exemple in KOF XI, using Oswald's 3A at a specific timing on okizeme or on an incoming character was an unescapable unblockable that leaded into a 75% damage meterless combo, this wad banned in all japanese and european tourneys (don't know in US but I guess that was the same), Ash and Shen also had the same thing, although less damaging, those were also banned. Another exemple I remember is HNK, doing Rei's infinite DP glitch was banned, specific freezes glitches were also banned.

Like the Oswald unblockable, a black hole setup can't be done by mistake, it's possible to use that super in combos but it does less damage than the fireball super and the damage can't kill, so its only real use is as an unblockable starter, banning that is easely doable.

For the banishing ray, I don't think that's needed, the so called infinite blockstring (that don't forget everyone can get out) has no meaning outside of gaining meter for doing a black hole, if this is taken out, it just leaves with a blockstring that builds more meter for the opponent than for yourself, and that has neither lows nor overheads, why don't you just setup a graviton and go for a mixup, it's not like Kokonoe can't do damage without meter.

Also banishing ray isn't only for okis and neutral, a lot of combos uses it, actually if it wasn't for doing black hole setups, 22B wouldn't be used that much on oki as graviton + fireball oki is far superior for mixups.

Of course she will still be very strong without black hole, but people shouldn't say that would change things much, the good half of the cast that has no answer to this would have a whole lot more chances, and even if she can do a lot of damage with classic mixups, she can't do as much from those than from a blackhole.

[Loli Bacon]

snip

This is exactly what I mean. Thank you very much Maho.

[Eshi]

1) Just because a single character in top tier has an amazing matchup against your character doesn't make your character unviable. It makes you unwilling to deal with a single character, or unwilling to learn an alt to cover your holes. 7-3 is not unwinnable. 8-2 is not unwinnable. These are bad matchups, yes, but they sure as hell can be won. Outplay your opponent. Be 4x better than them or pick a better character.

In tournaments where sets are determined by 2/3 or 3/5 wins, yeah, 7-3 or 8-2 are practically impossible to win. Kokonoe is a popular character and easily half the cast have a really bad match-up against her. Arguments that don't accept this premise are wrong - BBCP with and without Kokonoe are completely different games. Can we please accept this? It's fine if you want to allow Kokonoe, but let's not be naive.

3) We as a community have never banned characters simply to increase character variety at a tournament level. There's a difference between tournament and casuals and if somebody is upset that they can't win a tournament with their low tier waifu, you had best pick a better character, step it up, or go back to just playing casuals. We have never banned a character simply to draw in more of a crowd. Have any of the top players stated they would drop the game if she isn't banned? Why do we care about casuals?

Banning a character simply to draw in more of a crowd? ST Akuma. He was not banned until Damdai asked the community to ban him, appealing to the fact that he fundamentally changes the game in a way that makes many characters unusable. Low tier waifu? yeah characters like Rachel or sooo low tier waifu love! Casuals don't matter? enjoy your 10 man majors. People of all skill levels populate tournament brackets, not just LK. Edited January 29, 2014 by Eshi

[mAc Chaos]

Isn't LK learning Kokonoe? lol

[Eshi]

Isn't LK learning Kokonoe? lol

Isn't... everyone? =P

[Loli Bacon]

In a tournament series where wins are determined by 2/3 wins, yeah, 7-3 or 8-2 are practically impossible to win. Kokonoe is a popular character and easily half the cast have a really bad match-up against her. Arguments that don't accept this premise are wrong - BBCP with and without Kokonoe are completely different games. Can we please accept this? It's fine if you want to allow Kokonoe, but let's not be naive.

I never said it wasn't a different game. But tournament and casual levels are completely different as well. Casual Melty and you see shit like H-Kohamech and she'll win, but higher level play you'll see more GOOD characters. Should we ban C-Sei, C-Roa and Ryougi just because it would increase character variety? I know H-Sei wouldn't look too terrible if C-Sei were gone.

"Practically impossible to win"? We did the math on this already; 10-20% chance when at an EVEN skill level isn't "nearly impossible"; stop exaggerating. Yes, it's hard, but that still doesn't invalidate a character. Be better than your opponent.

Banning a character simply to draw in more of a crowd? ST Akuma. He was not banned until Damdai asked the community to ban him, appealing to the fact that he fundamentally changes the game in a way that makes many characters unusable. Low tier waifu? yeah characters like Rachel or sooo low tier waifu love! Casuals don't matter? enjoy your 10 man majors. People of all skill levels populate tournament brackets, not just LK.

Casuals don't matter. If they're casual, they'll just be going to tournaments to lose money anyway. Does it matter if they lose to Litchi or Kokonoe? People of all skill levels will still populate the brackets if she isn't banned, there might just be less players overall. If someone truly likes the game, they'll still play it. If it's a matter of bringing in more of a crowd so that more money is tossed in for the TOs and the winners, then this is a matter of business rather than competition, and that shouldn't be a reason to ban a character at all. If it's a matter of having interesting grand finals so we have more viewers, why do we care?

[reaVer]

"Practically impossible to win"? We did the math on this already; 10-20% chance when at an EVEN skill level isn't "nearly impossible"; stop exaggerating. Yes, it's hard, but that still doesn't invalidate a character. Be better than your opponent.

0.2 ^ 3 = 0.8% chance to win a set. And if you have 5 kokonoe opponents it's 0.008 ^ 5 = 3.2768e-9% chance to win. So over half the cast has a less than 1% chance to win a set, let alone the tournament.

Casuals don't matter. If they're casual, they'll just be going to tournaments to lose money anyway. Does it matter if they lose to Litchi or Kokonoe? People of all skill levels will still populate the brackets if she isn't banned, there might just be less players overall. If someone truly likes the game, they'll still play it. If it's a matter of bringing in more of a crowd so that more money is tossed in for the TOs and the winners, then this is a matter of business rather than competition, and that shouldn't be a reason to ban a character at all. If it's a matter of having interesting grand finals so we have more viewers, why do we care?

Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were playing BBCP here rather than Kokonoe vs Kokonoe!

[Eshi]

I never said it wasn't a different game. But tournament and casual levels are completely different as well. Casual Melty and you see shit like H-Kohamech and she'll win, but higher level play you'll see more GOOD characters. Should we ban C-Sei, C-Roa and Ryougi just because it would increase character variety? I know H-Sei wouldn't look too terrible if C-Sei were gone.

"Practically impossible to win"? We did the math on this already; 10-20% chance when at an EVEN skill level isn't "nearly impossible"; stop exaggerating. Yes, it's hard, but that still doesn't invalidate a character. Be better than your opponent.

It's really not exaggerating. SFIV Zangief has never won a major pretty much entirely because of pocket Sagats, which is only 7-3.

Casuals don't matter. If they're casual, they'll just be going to tournaments to lose money anyway. Does it matter if they lose to Litchi or Kokonoe? People of all skill levels will still populate the brackets if she isn't banned, there might just be less players overall. If someone truly likes the game, they'll still play it. If it's a matter of bringing in more of a crowd so that more money is tossed in for the TOs and the winners, then this is a matter of business rather than competition, and that shouldn't be a reason to ban a character at all. If it's a matter of having interesting grand finals so we have more viewers, why do we care?

Well, of course it's not a matter of competition. BBCP will have strong competitors either way. The only difference is how many characters are no longer usable. Let's reverse this argument: what exactly do we gain by allowing Kokonoe, over banning her?

0.2 ^ 3 = 0.8% chance to win a set. !

That's not how probability works, let's not derail into this again... Edited January 29, 2014 by Eshi

[Loli Bacon]

0.2 ^ 3 = 0.8% chance to win a set. And if you have 5 kokonoe opponents it's 0.008 ^ 5 = 3.2768e-9% chance to win. So over half the cast has a less than 1% chance to win a set, let alone the tournament.

Oh I'm sorry, I thought we were playing BBCP here rather than Kokonoe vs Kokonoe!

Sigh.... (P|X) = (P|A)^2 + 2((P|A)*(P|B))*(P|A)

So (P|X) = (.2)^2 + 2((.2)*(.8))*(.2) = .104 = 10.4% chance for an 8-2 matchup to win the set. How is that impossible to win?

[Rhiya]

Glad someone brought up C-Roa. That shit is so ridiculous, but no one is going to vote to ban it. It's not -that- broken.

I only cried a little inside every time I was netplaying against Tonberry and he picked C-Roa

It's really not exaggerating. SFIV Zangief has never won a major pretty much entirely because of pocket Sagats, which is only 7-3.

There's nothing to stop the Zangief player from pulling out something to beat Sagat, though.

There are still ways to beat Kokonoe. Sure, it might not be as your main, and that sucks like hell, but needing pocket subs to deal with matchups is nothing new to fighting games. Kokonoe is stupid, but is she so stupid that every character has a 1-9 matchup against her? Does something no one can deal with in any way? Neither is true. If she doesn't make the game impossible to play as anyone but Kokonoe, and she doesn't, then she's stupid, but not worth a ban.

Just my two cents.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Dusk Thanatos

[Loli Bacon]

It's really not exaggerating. SFIV Zangief has never won a major pretty much entirely because of pocket Sagats, which is only 7-3.

Well, of course it's not a matter of competition. BBCP will have strong competitors either way. The only difference is how many characters are no longer usable. Let's reverse this argument: what exactly do we gain by allowing Kokonoe, over banning her?

That's not how probability works, let's not derail into this again...

Double post: sorry.

It's not a matter of what we gain, it's simply a matter of why. There are plenty of instances in which banning something gives us a lot more in return in other fighting games but why haven't we before? Again, banning top tier characters in other games would show us a healthier scene for competition but if we truly cared about that or character variety, we'd have done it already

[Eshi]

There's nothing to stop the Zangief player from pulling out something to beat Sagat, though.

That wasn't the point. The point was that 7-3 match-ups are practically impossible to win tournaments with, therefore it's not viable. To target your specific statement: yes, Zangief has to counterpick Sagat. Now apply that to the majority of the cast and you have Kokonoe.

There are still ways to beat Kokonoe. Sure, it might not be as your main, and that sucks like hell, but needing pocket subs to deal with matchups is nothing new to fighting games. Kokonoe is stupid, but is she so stupid that every character has a 1-9 matchup against her? Does something no one can deal with in any way? Neither is true. If she doesn't make the game impossible to play as anyone but Kokonoe, and she doesn't, then she's stupid, but not worth a ban.

The fact that it literally has to be the worst possible circumstance to be justified is not at all a sentiment I agree with. Especially in BBCP's unique situation where Kokonoe got released well into the game's life and turned the balance on its head. I would probably feel different if she was part of BBCP originally.

[Loli Bacon]

That wasn't the point. The point was that 7-3 match-ups are practically impossible to win tournaments with, therefore it's not viable. To target your specific statement: yes, Zangief has to counterpick Sagat. Now apply that to the majority of the cast and you have Kokonoe.

The fact that it literally has to be the worst possible circumstance to be justified is not at all a sentiment I agree with. Especially in BBCP's unique situation where Kokonoe got released well into the game's life and turned the balance on its head. I would probably feel different if she was part of BBCP originally.

I dunno. I think there's a clear difference between Kokonoe and MBAA PS2 Archetype=Earth.,

[reaVer]

Sigh.... (P|X) = (P|A)^2 + 2((P|A)*(P|B))*(P|A)

So (P|X) = (.2)^2 + 2((.2)*(.8))*(.2) = .104 = 10.4% chance for an 8-2 matchup to win the set. How is that impossible to win?

Fair enough, I took straight wins. Now, again, you need to beat all 5 kokonoe's -> 0.104 ^ 5 = 0.00001216652 = 0.0012% to win the tournament. That is indeed MUCH more likely! Oh wait, it isn't. But at least the math is correct now :D

[STenSatsu]

In tournaments where sets are determined by 2/3 or 3/5 wins, yeah, 7-3 or 8-2 are practically impossible to win. Kokonoe is a popular character and easily half the cast have a really bad match-up against her. Arguments that don't accept this premise are wrong - BBCP with and without Kokonoe are completely different games. Can we please accept this? It's fine if you want to allow Kokonoe, but let's not be naive.

Banning a character simply to draw in more of a crowd? ST Akuma. He was not banned until Damdai asked the community to ban him, appealing to the fact that he fundamentally changes the game in a way that makes many characters unusable. Low tier waifu? yeah characters like Rachel or sooo low tier waifu love! Casuals don't matter? enjoy your 10 man majors. People of all skill levels populate tournament brackets, not just LK.

If casuals mattered so much we'd ban the top 10 characters along with Tager and Noel lol. S tier in general beats the shit out of everybody after Relius. If we are banning because of a few 7-3s then a lot more characters than Koko are going to get hit.

[PozerWolf]

So with the characters becoming Official on the Arcade version with rumors of a Rebalance, what do people think about this?

[Maho]

That wasn't the point. The point was that 7-3 match-ups are practically impossible to win tournaments with, therefore it's not viable. To target your specific statement: yes, Zangief has to counterpick Sagat. Now apply that to the majority of the cast and you have Kokonoe.

7-3 and even 8-2 matches matches aren't anything new in this game, like STenSatsu said, we would ban more than just Koko if this was for those, also I agree that Koko has a strong advantage over most of the cast, but I remember during CT time, the community somewhat agreed that this was a 7-3 matchup and this was an 8-2 one (I really wonder how people would react nowadays if we had a character like that in CP).

Now if we take black hole out of the game, I don't think Koko can do anything close to win as free as that, I would agree she would still hard counter at least Amane, Rachel and probably Arakune, but for others I think that we would have to see what happens (not saying that those would become bad matchups for her though).

Also to be fair unless you were living under a rock for the past year, you had to know Amane wasn't a tournament win character when you picked him, sorry but even without Kokonoe, he's just bad overall and not a character you should pick if you really want to win tournaments. Players that waited for Kokonoe to be playable for a long time (to be clear I'm one of them) on the other hand had no idea that she would be like she is, so there's a little difference here, you knew what you were getting into, they didn't.

Now don't misunderstand me, I respect your choice, I've mained Tager in tournaments since CT, so I know how it feels to have characters that literally shit on yours. At CT and CS1 time when I was doing more tournaments, I had to climb through brackets fighting numerous very bad matchups, I was placing top 2-3 pretty much every time but almost never won, losing a lot of times against a friend that was playing V13 in CT and Litchi in CS1.

He would always say to me "Why are you playing this shitty character when you could win more if you were playing a good one", but like I guess you are with Amane, I just had more fun playing Tager than another character at the time, but I couldn't argue with him on that point, he was just right, if you really want to be competitive, you have to pick a good character.

EDIT :

So with the characters becoming Official on the Arcade version with rumors of a Rebalance, what do people think about this?

Well I hope that's true and that it will come to consoles asap, so this debate can end (or not if she get Valkenhayn like balance).

Edited January 29, 2014 by Maho

[Kriegdrache]

So with the characters becoming Official on the Arcade version with rumors of a Rebalance, what do people think about this?

Im hoping they balance her so that she isn't complete ass. but still a solid character, because in all honesty she looks kind of fun, but she seems so "nofunallowed" to me right now I'd feel bad playing her.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Kriegdrache

[Eshi]

Well, everyone unanimously agrees that Black Hole should be banned regardless of our feelings about the character. That's definitely the best compromise. If I were to go to, say, Jebailey with that proposal, would that be okay with everyone?

[Dagwood]

zangief won a major, Snake Eyez won one I think it was SF25th or one of those capcom tourneys.

Anyway looks like they are nerfing kokonoe http://shoryuken.com/2014/01/29/blazblue-chronophantasma-arcade-update-arriving-mid-march-includes-balance-changes-console-characters/

Edited January 29, 2014 by Dagwood

[Loli Bacon]

Well, everyone unanimously agrees that Black Hole should be banned regardless of our feelings about the character. That's definitely the best compromise. If I were to go to, say, Jebailey with that proposal, would that be okay with everyone?

I don't think the move should be banned as it still has applications midscreen, but I think the corner setup that is infallible should be. I completely agree that 8k in the corner that can't be dealt with is a problem. I'm all for just banning the unblockable corner setup. =P

[TheArm05]

Jebailey won't decide to ban a move less than a week before his tournament. At this point a balance patch has already been announced so I think we just have to bite the pillow for one more month.

I wonder how large the scope of this balance patch will be. The way I see it they could take a minimalist approach and just hit koko's drive and remove black hole, or they could do entire sweeping changes to all the cast. The latter seems like wishful thinking (or a nightmare depending on your character).

[Mumm-Ra]

Incoming nerfbat beatings.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Mumm-Ra

[STenSatsu]

So with the characters becoming Official on the Arcade version with rumors of a Rebalance, what do people think about this?

Doesn't really matter much to the argument till it hits console versions. Regardless of what they do to Koko for the arcade update, we'll still be playing CP1 at tournaments.

Otherwise we just see how the update shakes out and have the discussion all over again.

[Errol]

I don't think the update has any practical effect. I still doubt it will hit much before Evo, if before Evo..

also lol at the idea of only banning black hole in the corner.. Like kokonoe without black hole at all wouldn't still have 7-3s against much of the cast...