Kokonoe banned from Rebel Up tournament series

[Loli Bacon]

I don't think the update has any practical effect. I still doubt it will hit much before Evo, if before Evo..

also lol at the idea of only banning black hole in the corner.. Like kokonoe without black hole at all wouldn't still have 7-3s against much of the cast...

The problem isn't her 7-3s.

[Errol]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. This game hasn't really seen a 7-3 since CS1.

[Eshi]

Jebailey won't decide to ban a move less than a week before his tournament. At this point a balance patch has already been announced so I think we just have to bite the pillow for one more month.

I didn't mean before the tournament, I meant after the tournament, and we're not going to get the patch on consoles the same day it comes out on arcades. Nothing is confirmed and we may have to deal with Kokonoe for quite a bit longer. We'll have at least one major before it comes around (Final Round).

Also, Black Hole unblockables can be landed midscreen too albeit it's harder. The move is just degenerate and dumb, it would be MUCH more easily manageable to ban the whole move. It's not like people actually use it over Superball as a combo ender anyway.

[Maho]

From my experience as a TO (so people don't think I'm making up things, I've been the TO of pretty much every French BB tourney untill the last SBO quals for CS2, nowadays I'm the main TO of X-Mania Europe and help on some others tournaments), the black hole must be banned by itself and not just in corner. Why?

Because that rule would be a nightmare to enforce, like how much away from corner would be OK? And how do you judge that in game? That's also why I don't think it's realistic to ban the pseudo infinite blockstring, as enforcing this would be actually even harder, it would need a referee that knows the game well on every station to keep an eye on all Kokonoe matches. And again, how much reps do you allow, which timing counts as an attempt of the blockstring, and how much delay is OK?

I remember in France, the Soul Calibur community has a lot of specific bugs banned for SC3 (well they actually ban things in every game but I clearly remember this exemple), it caused the referee situation I talked about and was really a pain for TOs.

Now as a player, the midscreen setups may be more situationnal but those are still stupid, she really don't need that at all, there's so much potential in graviton setups, I really look for what Kokonoe players can find if they start working on that instead of going for black hole setups 95% of the time.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. This game hasn't really seen a 7-3 since CS1.

I guess you never played Tager.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Maho

[tataki]

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?18709-Kokonoe-or-Brokonoe&p=1590399&viewfull=1#post1590399

IMO ban all console characters, for being console characters, until ASW puts them in the arcade version, which they will eventually, probably this year, because characters cost a lot to create so they'll be used later to attract people to the newer arcade balance patch.

ASW doesn't care about releasing experimental, unpolished, beta version material for the fan service home version, which is something they have always done in GG and BB, because for them the arcade version is where the serious business and the tournaments are. I'd rather play the "standard" version of the game rather than sacrifice western tournaments on the altar of their beta test. As soon as they put them in the arcade, regardless if they changed them or not, then you can make them legal again.

Hey what do you know I was right- You CAN predict what ASW will do based on past routines...

[Maho]

Well it's not like Arc Sys never put unpolished games out in arcades, I guess P4U2 is a recent good exemple of that.

[BananaKun]

Now as a player, the midscreen setups may be more situationnal but those are still stupid, she really don't need that at all, there's so much potential in graviton setups, I really look for what Kokonoe players can find if they start working on that instead of going for black hole setups 95% of the time.

So far the only thing I don't like when playing Kokonoe is that blackhole almost always takes precedence in her gameplan, to the point where it's easy to get tunnel vision and lose out on all the potential setups and shenanigans she can go for. I really like that she has so much potential when playing around with her moveset. Banning blackhole sounds kind of scary.. I will sometimes get blackhole on accident if I'm going for her Astral. I guess I should learn how to 720 the other direction.

I glossed over this thread and whoever mentioned Damdai and ST Akuma: Damdai was trying to get HD Remix's Akuma banned because he was tourney legal but still broken after he got toned down. ST Akuma was way worse and has always been banned/soft banned for as long as I can remember.

[tataki]

Well it's not like Arc Sys never put unpolished games out in arcades, I guess P4U2 is a recent good exemple of that.

P4U2 does not suffer from lack of polish. They wanted to make the game "crazy" and they did.

[Maho]

Well that's your opinion, now I don't think all the BS we see was intentionnal, also making some low tier worse and some top better isn't what I would call polishing a game, but everyone has the right to see it another way.

For others exemples, it's not hard to think of this, games I think no one would argue with HNK and Basara (I say that even with HNK being one of my favorite games ever), for specific characters like Kokonoe, I can clearly remember when Slayer was released on arcade XX, he had some of the worse BS ever, BDC giving 19f invuln on all specials, one command throw equals death.

Well just to say that arcade locations test are not fool proof, we had more than enough evidence of that from history of arcade FGs.

Now the problem I see with banning all console characters, is that thanks to that Kokonoe debate, not only Kokonoe players would lose their main for the "health of the game", but Terumi and Kagura players too, when their characters are clearly far from being broken.

I will sometimes get blackhole on accident if I'm going for her Astral. I guess I should learn how to 720 the other direction.

Lol you're right, I actually got that today on netplay, to be fair I doubt I would go for her Astral in a tournament though, I guess most Kokonoe players would better not be able to use her astral that having her fully banned.

[Blade]

Incoming nerfbat beatings.

It's amazing what you find on Google: http://v025o.popscreen.com/eGx1cTl1MTI%3D_o_saturday-night-live-nerf-crotch-bat.jpg

[BananaKun]

Lol you're right, I actually got that today on netplay, to be fair I doubt I would go for her Astral in a tournament though, I guess most Kokonoe players would better not be able to use her astral that having her fully banned.

If you're in a position where you can do something like a 2A>720D then you could go for it. Cancel into the grab when they block it, or use 2A to low profile stuff. It's situational, but still useful. Then when you prove to them you can grab them at any time, you can use the threat of it to scare them into trying to jump or mash DP. I'd much rather go for some kind of confirm into overdrive so they can't burst, but sometimes the chance to Astral arises first. :P

[Pen_Ninja]

I find that 2A > 6B(1) > 4D > 720D can open people up. As unsafe as 6B(1) > 4D is, if this is the only time you do that, it's easy to take someone by surprise.

Astral setups are real, it's a 0 frame after flash command grab, a valid mixup... the problem is that I tend to get black hole by accident too.

[Maho]

Yeah I know that, a command throw is never really useless, one other use I got a few times is as an IB punish, it being 4 frames is nice there, otherwise it may be the lack of invuln and the all in gamble that makes me not want to go for it that much.

Anyway the rule could take this issue in consideration, I think anyone can see the difference between a failed astral and an intended BH setup, and actually Kokonoe should get punished here unless the opponent is really sleeping, maybe the ban could be on comboing after black hole to remove this problem. Black hole does 1.2k damage that can't kill, so if you don't allow comboing after it, there would be no reason to go for a BH instead of super ball into 236C ender which does about 1.5k that can kill.

[Angel-tastic]

Anyway the rule could take this issue in consideration, I think anyone can see the difference between a failed astral and an intended BH setup, and actually Kokonoe should get punished here unless the opponent is really sleeping, maybe the ban could be on comboing after black hole to remove this problem. Black hole does 1.2k damage that can't kill, so if you don't allow comboing after it, there would be no reason to go for a BH instead of super ball into 236C ender which does about 1.5k that can kill.

I like this solution. It's objectively enforceable, eliminates the utility of the unblockable reset, and doesn't even require banning any moves, but just limiting what can be done with them, like you mentioned in your previous examples.

I feel like maybe some different implementations of the rule could also be tested to see which one is the most applicable when taking common input errors into account. This seems like a good way to handle Kokonoe for the next 3-ish months while we wait for the balance patch in May, and it would be a great way to keep practicing the match-up without getting killed by Jamming Dark every time you block wrong.