[FB] Tier List Discussion

[yaeca]

Based off the JP tier list here http://exvsrank.ninja-x.jp/list.html

Thought it might be interesting to discuss changes over time / see if overseas players have different thoughts.

The list was just updated (1.29) and I don't know if the site has a list of the changes made, but some I can see:

3000

I forget the exact positions after WZTV and Reborns, but regardless Unicorn is now up a few places in the same tier as Reborns, but still both after WZTV. Turn A might have moved up a bit as well but I forget.

2500

S and A tiers seem to be the same, except Deathscythe is now ahead of Xenon F. Also either Extreme Eclipse went down a bit or Extreme Aios went up because they weren't that close before. Anyone notice anything else?

2000

Delta and Hambrabi have been shoved into S tier joining Zeong and Kshatriya. Gyan might have moved up a spot or two, don't remember.

1000

1K seems pretty different at the top at least. EZ8 still first, but his A tier status is joined by Zaku Kai and Hildolfr

[gmsephiroth]

For those who want the quick and easy:

EXVSFB Tier List: (updated 1/29/14)

3000

S: WZTV > Reborns, UC > QanT

A: Master, Xi, DX, 00, Sazabi, TA > Nu, X1FC, WZC

B: Hi-Nu, TX, Destiny > V2, SF

C: Epyon

*2500

S: Banshee

A: The O, Strike Noir > Extreme Xenon, God, Impulse, Deathscythe

B: Virsago, X, ZZ, Susanoo, Freedom, Extreme Eclipse, IJ, GP02 > Extreme Agios, Raphael, Sinanju, T3, Quebeley, Cherudim, X1Kai, X3, GP03, Gottrlatn > Z, Arche

*2000

S: Zeong, Kshatriya, Delta, Hambrabi

A: RZ, Gyan, GZaku, MkII, Blue Frame, Messala, Forbidden, Dynames, Providence

B: Gelgoog, Throne, Hyaku Shiki, Gold Frame, GP04, BD1, F91, X2, Spiegel, Red Frame, Exia, RX78, GP01, Dragon, Sumo > Strike, Stargazer, Heavyarms, Gaia

C: Kapool

1000

A: Ez8 > Zaku2, Hidolfr

B: LaGowe, Zuda, Acguy > V1, Gouf, GunEZ, Alex, Efreet, Duel, Arios, Red Qubeley, Berga Giros > Zaku3

[Setsuna Yuki]

I'm very pleased Providence went from B+ to A

Such an underused suit. Hopefully, it'll be more played in FB.

[Genoce]

Holy shit Qubeley is no longer bottom of the 2500s

[yaeca]

I'm very pleased Providence went from B+ to A

Such an underused suit. Hopefully, it'll be more played in FB.

Oh, I didn't notice. Even more buffed vs. EXVS, then!

Holy shit Qubeley is no longer bottom of the 2500s

And X1 is now ahead of X3

[Mightfo]

Keep in mind this tier list is not based on opinions or analysis or whatever, but based on win percentages for those mechs in tourneys at Kansai and Sportsland. So, they are very likely affected by the player populations there, which means there is significant randomness involved probably.

V2 has been dropping recently. After its recent nerfs it didnt drop much, but since like.. october? It dropped a lot, from A to B. Providence indeed jumped from B+ to A+. GP02 went from A- to B-. Impulse is up from B+ to A. Qubeley and Zeta swapped places. Kshatriya, Delta, and Hambrabi have been gradually gliding up. IIRC blue frame has also been rising. A LOT of B- 2ks are now B+s or Bs. Zaku3 is now the only B- 1k, several others were in that spot before but not any longer. The population of skilled 1k players may be rising gradually since the 6/25 update. Acguy, Zaku2, Tank all rose a bit. V1 and Gouf have been falling slightly.

My time frame for remembering the course of these changes is since like august, by the way. Not talking super long term.

Holy shit Qubeley is no longer bottom of the 2500s

The "bottom" was just B- before anyway, which is better than the majority of vanilla EXVS units.

I really wouldnt worry about these that much, except that the S ranks are scary and the C+ mechs need extra luck/effort and careful team composition, I suppose.

[yaeca]

After playing Turn A this morning, I can understand the rise in tier, at least from EXVS. The new BC moves are great, 2BC specifically. Also it's funny how much faster the nuke is. It almost looks like it was comically sped up.

Edited February 1, 2014 by yaeca

[LatiosG]

I'm interested to try out Ez8 and Blue Frame since they have jumped pretty high since the original EXVS. Ez8 had such simple changes but he got so much better and Blue frame changes makes me excited.

[sosoishero]

Never trusted the tier list myself(except Reborns, X Divider are one of the best if not broken), just use anything you like =D

[Mightfo]

Never trusted the tier list myself(except Reborns, X Divider are one of the best if not broken), just use anything you like =D

X divider got nerfed, he is not godlike anymore. The tier list has meaning to it, even if it shouldnt be treated as concrete.

Also it's funny how much faster the nuke is. It almost looks like it was comically sped up.

Haha, i felt the same way when i first saw it.

[Setsuna Yuki]

Haha, i felt the same way when i first saw it.

GP02 is looking at you :P

[WindmanV3]

I actually found myself wondering where Lacus placed on this list, but then I realised it was too soon to call right now. But my guess is that Japan puts her in either slightly better than B or just slightly worse than the upper B's.

But that's my call right now. I'm not usually the one to take tier lists seriously, but I can't help my curiosity sometimes. It's kinda fun to see where people place the suits/characters you happen to like/play.

[Kin-man]

Why is providence in A tier when units like Quebeleys are in B tier? I like providence and all but seriously,he has no moves besides funnels, BR, and unreliable stun net.

Edit: BTW if anyone could explain to me why Zeong is so high up I'd appreciate it.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Kin-man

[brett_]

Why is providence in A tier when units like Quebeleys are in B tier? I like providence and all but seriously,he has no moves besides funnels, BR, and unreliable stun net.

Edit: BTW if anyone could explain to me why Zeong is so high up I'd appreciate it.

Prov is a 2K with Funnels. That's a pretty big deal for a 2K, at the 2.5K cost it's much less of a big deal, and you're expected to get a good amount of firepower for that cost bracket. His funnels are also surprisingly decent for his cost bracket, and he has a lot of them.

Zeong has a fastfall 8B that when combined with his amekyan (6BC -> BR), leads to an ability to steal landings and avoid pressure extremely well. He also is a 2K with Funnels.....of sorts.

[KitsuneRagnell]

I don't like tiers. They influence people to choose certain suits, limiting variety. One of my mains is Red Frame and I kick ass with him (half the time). Even more so with my favorite main (Blue Destiny 1).

[Sabator]

Pick whatever you want. But the tier list won't go away, it's an accurate reflection of how strong different units are at high level play. If you pick a top tier, you will win more. If you're not bothered about that, play what you want.

In most VS games, the top tier is of less relevance compared to unit compatibility, but in this version almost all the S tier units are also extremely flexible and work well with many partners, so yeah. You can pick like delta plus and it'll work with essentially any 3k.

[Skillkill107]

That's a little deceptive too, it's easier to say that it's easier to win more with top tier suits Sabator. A top tier suit does not make a top tier player and vica versa, and without practice, you'll usually see players pick S rank suits that aren't their main, and flounder because they have some quirks that similar suits don't. Picking a suit and dedicating yourself to learning it will not make your suit better but it will make you understand what you can do to compensate for problems at the very least.

[Genoce]

Why is providence in A tier when units like Quebeleys are in B tier? I like providence and all but seriously,he has no moves besides funnels, BR, and unreliable stun net.

Edit: BTW if anyone could explain to me why Zeong is so high up I'd appreciate it.

Qubeley's damage projection for a 2500 is honestly mediocre. It doesn't have any ranged attacks that force a down, its funnels are unreliable with their impact stun, they don't really reload fast, and their damage is fairly low combined with the fact that aside from BR>neutral funnels> BR, it can't put out damage very quickly. Additionally, the startup and range of pressure was nerfed on FB's launch so it can't serve as an effective, huge AoE reliably anymore.

In MkII's case its long-range game is unspectacular with sluggish, low damage funnels compounded with the typical long reload of 1000s. Compare it to, say, Ez8, which has the long-range punch of the cannon and ranged assists with the ability to switch modes.

[Sabator]

That's a little deceptive too, it's easier to say that it's easier to win more with top tier suits Sabator. A top tier suit does not make a top tier player and vica versa, and without practice, you'll usually see players pick S rank suits that aren't their main, and flounder because they have some quirks that similar suits don't. Picking a suit and dedicating yourself to learning it will not make your suit better but it will make you understand what you can do to compensate for problems at the very least.

Well, I'm talking about a scenario in a vacuum without any other factors. If you put 30 hours into learning Banshee vs 30 hours into learning Qubeley, the first version of you would have a much higher winrate. Obviously with 30 minutes of Banshee vs 30 hours of Qubeley, the story would be very different. But unless you have unlimited amounts of free time, if you care about winning more, you should pick a top tier. That's what tier lists indicate.

A character being low tier could be interpreted in several different ways. Sometimes it means that a character is harder to use and sometimes it means a character simply doesn't have the necessary tools to compete. But universally it means that these characters win more, and by picking them and focusing on getting good with their toolset you increase your chance of winning to the maximum.

I'm not telling anyone what they should play or that they should drop their current main or anything like that, but it's ultimately a cold hard fact that some characters are better than other characters in this game. You can choose to disregard that if you want but you can't dispute its legitimacy.

At any rate, it's not something to stress about. All the S tiers and most of the A tiers have seen some success in competitive play and have been sighted in tournament finals in Japan, and the level of play outside Japan is so much lower that you can probably get away with anything.

[Skillkill107]

I'm not arguing that point but the fact is people don't exist in a void and that logic works up until you realize that. Saying "a higher tier suit means you win more" automatically and saying "All factors equal, this suit has a greater overall benefit in more team compositions" are very different statements, and excludes concepts like match up experience, shuffle luck, familiarity of picks, and etc. A player with the same knowledge base at the same skill level will still have better match up data against the more frequently picked suit because they subscribe to the same logic and are aware other people do too. This also excludes factors such as play style, and temperament too which kind of don't come into play with tier play. One can play something they acknowledge is good but you can have poor compatibility with a suit depending on your own play style and habits.

The idea characters are better is fine, I agreed to that, I just disagree that tiers directly correlate to win rate because it assumes too much about players.

[brett_]

Neither of you are wrong, but I'm just here to point out that regardless of whether that person is putting 30 hours into Banshee or Qubeley, they're both going to lose to the dude who put 20 hours into GP-03 :P

[LukewarmHoliday]

Clearly this means the muzzle correction tier list is the only tier list.

[Sabator]

Neither of you are wrong, but I'm just here to point out that regardless of whether that person is putting 30 hours into Banshee or Qubeley, they're both going to lose to the dude who put 20 hours into GP-03 :P

thats me

The idea characters are better is fine, I agreed to that, I just disagree that tiers directly correlate to win rate because it assumes too much about players.

The current tier list is directly derived from win rate though. Although I didn't know this until brett told me.

[Skillkill107]

That's fine I'm just saying like....up to a certain point that logic works, it's just irresponsible telling people to only pick S tier suits for the numerical advantage and then they find out their play style doesn't mesh with any of them and they wonder why they lose.

[TekkamanArk]

What makes Deathscythe as high as it is?