[Xrd] Slayer Gameplay Discussion

[Wirya]

I guess I praised ASW way too soon, lol. These changes are making less and less sense. 

[tortoos]

I figured I should be skeptical. Especially after seeing potemkins laughably bad changes. Sad to see I wasn't wrong in my initial analysis. I held out SOME hope though. There's so many ways to buff this character to make him strong and apparently none of them are being done? 6p meterless combos, p pilebunker meterless combos, 2hs causing stagger on counter hit instead of knocking them way into the air, j.h causing ground bounce on counter hit, it's late being reliably meterlessly comboable, ch 5k > 6hs > k dandy crosswise, the list goes on and on. I'll be the FIRSt to admit i'm not great at this game, but after playing slayer for even a little while it's obvious how you could make him a much better character without making him broken. Same for potemkin.

[fogelstrom]

What you want for your character and the vision ASW has are completely opposite of the universe. If they want to keep Slayer low tier they will. They probably feel rather happy about how he is. I prefer this cautious way of altering things rather than BlazBlue totally revamping every character with ever balance patch throwing the whole game off balance.

 

They probably worked very hard with the initial balance and don't want to mess around too much.
This is still GG so even with Slayer being bottom of the barrel he still could easily whip up wins if you are good enough.
If you want easy mode there's still GG+R and S-tier Azrael in BB

 

[tortoos]

I really don't want easy mode, I just want any buffs changed to actually work. I don't even want this character to be top tier. If it turns out all his changes work when the smoke clears, i'll be stoked. That's all I'm asking for. Seems reasonable to me. If Hase can really make these work? I'll be happy to be proven wrong. If I really wanted to win with no effort, I would've just picked up Faust.

[daymendou]

I read conflicting reports on 6P so I went with Taka. Rou tweeted something about IAD j.H c.S working but Taka said IAD makes the screen move too soon for enemy to wallbounce.

Eternal said 2H has its old range or even more. Higher untech time might allow K Mappa c.S or at least DOT

Personally I think we shouldn't take tweets too heavily, especially this soon. Videos will show everything.

[Wirya]

I read conflicting reports on 6P so I went with Taka. Rou tweeted something about IAD j.H c.S working but Taka said IAD makes the screen move too soon for enemy to wallbounce.

The old pre-Xrd 6P was like that; a midscreen CH combo was doable off it but you shouldn't airdash too soon or else the screen would move and screw things up.

[tortoos]

I read conflicting reports on 6P so I went with Taka. Rou tweeted something about IAD j.H c.S working but Taka said IAD makes the screen move too soon for enemy to wallbounce.

Eternal said 2H has its old range or even more. Higher untech time might allow K Mappa c.S or at least DOT

Personally I think we shouldn't take tweets too heavily, especially this soon. Videos will show everything.

you're probably right. I know a friend of mine plays bedman (right? how many people play that guy?) and he got a ton of more buffs than what was initially listed, I'm really kind of jealous. This character is so fun I'll keep playing regardless of what happens, but man it would be nice if it all turns out well. Again, really feeling for potemkin's struggle right now.

[koufdell]

why am i the only one who wants more untechable time for tail hit of SDD?come on guys like in reload

[Wirya]

why am i the only one who wants more untechable time for tail hit of SDD?come on guys like in reload

The tail had normal untech time in #R (meaning that if the part that hit last in a 2-hit SDD was the tail, you could not combo off it). Maybe you mean the head?

[koufdell]

The tail had normal untech time in #R (meaning that if the part that hit last in a 2-hit SDD was the tail, you could not combo off it). Maybe you mean the head?

oh sorry  yeah the head 

[Mercer]

Backdash, BDJC, FD to make people whiff moves of their blockstrings or force them to add dashing thus creating gaps.

Also learning to use Blitz effectively has helped me in a lot of ways.

But all in all a solid defense is really important. Some pressure is really hard to deal with for example Elphelt or Zato. That takes more matchup specific knowledge than just basics imo.

At lower levels you can abuse the hell out of BDJC because most people don't know how to deal with it.

Thank you

What should I do out of BDJC, AD into Footloose?

Dead Angle.

Blitz.

Sit there and block. (Instant block for meter so you can do the above two options.)

Faultless.

Backdash into jump into airdash Footloose (YRC if you want). The backdash gives you some invul frames to work with, but if you find a spot where you can jump out raw you can just do that. (If you do not do airdash Footloose fast enough, you'll just kind of float out of the corner, which is not what you want. Do it right and you should shoot across the screen.)

BDC bite (6321447H).

Eternal Wings (236236H... but I would rather Dead Angle).

 

Depending on what they're doing, you can abare and start pressing buttons, but you need to have that sort of read (study your frames, please).

 

 

Dead Angle is just going to be very easy to apply in most situations as long as you have the meter. Keep your head on straight during the reset to neutral and it is usually a very good investment.

I didn't really use footloose that much, couldn't find info in the wiki about it...

BDC bite (6321447H).

How do I do it?is it suppose to be 63214547H in the input display?

Thanks a lot!

[fogelstrom]

Thank you

What should I do out of BDJC, AD into Footloose?

I didn't really use footloose that much, couldn't find info in the wiki about it...

BDC bite (6321447H).

How do I do it?is it suppose to be 63214547H in the input display?

Thanks a lot!

 

I most often do BDJC IAD j.K and hitting the j.K low so link into 5K is easier after landing. Obviously if your opponent figures out to deal with this you have to switch things up like BDSJC and use j.2K to alter your landing or whatnot.

The footloose YRC thingy is just that if you input YRC while doing IAD Footlose like 66214K, P+S+HS and YRC at a certain point you retain all momentum right after YRC and fly fast over the whole screen.

Yeah 5 is 'obvious' since 44 and 66 can't be done otherwise but your input is correct, 63214547HS.

[setsu113]

.

[Onakira]

I was hyped after reading about some of Slayer's changes on SRK.

 

And now....I'm scratching my head. 

[SolAscension]

Hi guys, had a quick question about slayers 5D. I've watched pretty much every gameplay video of slayer I can find of , several of them repeatedly (Hase for example). I never see any dust setups outside mid-combo. Are there any blockstrings or setups you have found effective for using 5D?

[DandyStepOnTheDanceFloor]

In the corner when I have trained them not to mash IAD J.S<J.K<C.S<5D works wonders in corner pressure for myself. I don't know if it's good but I hit that mix up at least once a match.

[4r5]

The 5H mixup:

5H-5D, you gotta be pretty damn close, otherwise the 5D will whiff. 5H-5D only has a 5f gap inbetween. 5f is most character's fastest attack, usually their jab. So if they miss their punish by 1f then it trades in your favor. Outside of RRC blockstring mixups, to land a 5D you have to heavily condition your opponent to block low and not hit buttons. Incidentally, 5H chains into 2H and 2D, which are both low hits. 5H-2H, if you have them in the corner, will not push you back. (Unless they FD, FDing this string is about -30% tension) Which is important for how close you have to be to connect with what could have been a 5H-5D. 5H-2D can be used to setup a frametrap and discourage jabbing/reinforce low block.

 

Escalation:

5H-2H is -4 on block. Punishable by throw, if their head is on right, that is what they'll do. But their head maybe a little loose, 'cause they should of thrown you when you got close enough to start the 5H mixup. If they press buttons on you, then it's the usual mixups off disadvantage. If they are so scared they do nothing, then you can rerun the 5H mixup on them.

 

5H-2D. From the range that you would have to do 5H from, 2D is crazy punishable, and it'll be punished hard. Either take the punish, or RRC. If RRC, the world is your oyster. Thrown in a 5D?

 

5D is -9 on block. Might not be punished as hard as 2D would be.

 

5H is -4 on block, and is also special and jump-cancelable. So you can transition this mixup in to DandyStep mixups, IAD mixups or whatever.

 

 

For the most part, Slayer doesn't have a Dust setup. It's all conditioning and reads. 5H-5D is about the closest thing Slayer has to a Dust setup, and even so it still requires some conditioning.

[daymendou]

Is there a good way to time It's Late vs throw mash? I get thrown maybe 1/3. Sometimes if I do UP whiff 6[6] I see their 5H/OS, so I figure there is good CH potential.

Also, any pad players have a trick for IAD input? It's really easy with the dpad but I want to use the thumbstick. Right now I keep getting super jump like I hit 39

[fogelstrom]

You'll just have to learn how to perform it against all various characters since there is a 10F difference in wakeup times. Easiest and most common setups are after 2D and any air combo into j.D.
You can delay It's Late cancel quite a bit if you recognize you did UP a bit too early. Once you get the hang of it you'll get a lot of IL CH for huge dmg. Against people who think it's okay to just mash throw on oki just because someone is close.

And for SolAscension on 5D I just cancel into 5D from practically everything to check people. Since me and my opponents isn't anyone of the gg gods it hits more than it is blocked. You can just gatling into it form any move. c.S, 5D. c.S, f.S, 5D. 2K, 5D, 2K, c.S, 5D.

[4r5]

The arcade badge for landing a Dust is called 'Tester' for a reason.

[tortoos]

As for timing It's Late vs throw mash, I started using visual cues myself. It's hard not to get tossed, but after you knock someone down you can get a pretty decent idea of their wakeup speed. Everyone has that get up animation right, it just  comes out earlier or later. What I started doing was waiting for them to hit the ground, and as soon as i saw the character move do a 214P-S. That works for me at least but obviously its probably not as idea as grinding individual timing. It also depends on how scared your opponent is. If you can smack them for attemping throw mash with a big counter hit once or twice, they'll probably be discouraged from doing it again unless they really don't care about eating upwards of 200 damage from It's Late.

 

One thing you could also consider trying, though it is a risk, is standing...fairly close to them on their wakeup, just outside of throw range. If you are 100% sure they'll press a button, I like to throw out Dead on Time if my opponent is cornered. Obviously it's a risk, but the reward is pretty huge, and it can really scare people into stopping mash attempts when they think they'll have a haymaker rush coming at them if they try it. This character is extremely focused on conditioning his opponents into being scared to hit buttons, and if they hit them anyway, really punishing them for them. You just kind of have to get ignorant sometimes.

 

As for 5D, I mostly go for it off of something like a blocked 2k RC. As far as i'm aware you just kind of have to throw it out there. I've had my best success doing it off of 2k though, whether the 2k was hit or blocked.

[Melo]

If you think they are going to press a button, you could also Blitz on their wakeup. You can get punished either way but bs' ing might catch them by surprise if they decide to do nothing and go unpunished.

[fogelstrom]

Using 214P-S-S as they start to wake up could work for a small amount of specific characters. You also have to make the gap small enough to not get mashed out by fast normals. If they catch on that your timing is so off that they can do 5-7F normals before your It's Late active frames comes into play it's bad oki on your part. Better players tend to realize that this oki isn't meaty and thus attempt to hit buttons. Sol 5K comes to mind.

I try to hit as late frames as possible. I even speed up It's Late to hit with active frames after a while but as soon as I get thrown I go back to startup frames again.

 

For me as a player I don't like super hard reads as doing DoT in someone's face. If you are going to attempt to bait a throw you should at least do TK DHD instead. Both get's punished but DHD not as easily. And if you have 100% meter it's 200+ dmg if you hit (besides Faust+May).

 

Also I have tried using Blitz to stop reversals, mainly against Sol, but yeah, it's a hard read so my results haven't paid off for obivously bad shoryu reads.

Oh also if you wanna do hard read with overdrive I would even recommend EW over DoT since it has invul startup. Since DoT can be hit at the initial 7F startup. You can combo fine after raw EW in corner for a good chunk of dmg even without CH.

[tortoos]

Oh of course you can. EW CH 6HS PB is something like 180 damage. I just like to take those risks because Dead on Time is swag as hell. I'd probably play more conserative if all my matches weren't casuals anyway. But maybe that might change if dead on time is buffed? It really just depends on how conservative you want to play, if you're a safer player, Dead on Time isn't usually the better option, it's swag as hell though and thats why I do it. I don't get thrown out of under pressure much, so either my timing is close enough to being correct, or I've sufficiently scared people against trying it. Either way, it's not too much of a problem anymore. It was a huge problem when I wasn't doing primarily 214P, that seems to be the best option for timing UP + It's Late in general and I'm rarely thrown out of it. The only time I'm counter hit on trying it is by chipp because he has a 3F normal he can mash. I'm sure the same can be said for sol so you need to be especially careful for those two. I should also point out since I'm In America, my delay is usually 3 to 5 frames, which is fairly sizeable. I imagine you need to be significantly more precise in 1F of lag, but combos are also easier, so tradeoffs?

[fogelstrom]

Looking at frames if you play against Chip/Sol the only 2 characters with 3F normals that I know of you have 1F window for blowing it up.
If they press on IL Startup 12F they'll get hit since it will trade on 15F. But you can still be grabbed on 14F (throw OS).
And there are a number of characters with 4F normal like Ram, I-No, Elph, probably more. For these it's a 2F window and vs 5F normals it's 3F window. 
But in reality you can add 1F on each of these since if you trade it will always be in our favour.
My point is just if you look at the raw data and crunch numbers it's actually not that big of a window that you actually "need" to hit.

Though if the person you are playing know the first thing about Slayer and risk vs reward pressing buttons vs IL (except after blocked UP) is not a good idea.