[Xrd] Potemkin Gameplay Discussion

[jak d ripr]

Hey so I was wondering, what are potemkins oki options after a 2d? Whenever I try to go for a j.hs into some kind of mix-up my friend just backdashes on wake-up and avoids it all. Also, is there any place I can go that just goes over basics with him? I'm really enjoying playing him but I feel like I'm missing out(or just misusing) on a lot of his tools.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

They can always backdash out of jump-in oki so that's not unique to a 2D knockdown. j.S is generally a better oki tool than j.H because it hits lower to the ground, it's possible for some characters to 6P or do other low-profile things to j.H even done meaty. However with j.S be aware you need to have very tight timing to make j.S -> 2P a solid blockstring on IB, if they are someone who likes to IB on wakeup a lot, mix it up with j.H too.

A good way to bait backdash is to use 5H or 6H, especially in the corner. Another good option, if you are already jumping in, is to just YRC first, because then their backdash is half speed and very easy to react to. There's also a fancy-pants YRC oki option select, if you have >25% <50% meter, where you do j.S and press RC right as it should hit. That's more useful if you are very deep with your jump, since you should have time to kara walk buster.

I've got like a 30 page 'basics' guide I wrote about 10 years ago (4/10/2005 on the text file, wow), I could probably update it for Xrd since most of it is still pretty relevant.

[Garalian]

Pot buster seems to be whiffing a lot on crouching opponents. Is my timing off or should I start using 5D once I've trained them to start blocking my pressure? The whiffs are killin me tonight.

[Darlos9D]

Pot buster seems to be whiffing a lot on crouching opponents. Is my timing off or should I start using 5D once I've trained them to start blocking my pressure? The whiffs are killin me tonight.

 

That... doesn't sound like a thing that should be happening.

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

Pot buster seems to be whiffing a lot on crouching opponents. Is my timing off or should I start using 5D once I've trained them to start blocking my pressure? The whiffs are killin me tonight.

There are two likely problems:

1) You are trying to throw too early. There is 5F of throw protection after leaving guardstun, and 6F after hitstun). Keep in mind FD and Instant Block change the amount of guardstun you cause.

2) You are too far away. Takes some practice to learn the max possible range for the throw, but stand/crouch doesn't effect it much (or at all?)

5D isn't great. It's too slow to be a real mixup tool. It's OKAY to use once in a blue moon, but don't start relying on it for mixups.

There are a number of tricks to improve PB range. Break Buster (doing a tick with instant Hammerfall Break) is one obvious one. Doing Kara Walk Buster is another, IE doing 63214[6] hold for a few frames, before hitting P.

[AKingNamedPaul]

First day ever playing any guilty gear game and I just have a simple question. How do I get Gigantic bullet kai after Giganter kai?

[Garalian]

There are two likely problems:

1) You are trying to throw too early. There is 5F of throw protection after leaving guardstun, and 6F after hitstun). Keep in mind FD and Instant Block change the amount of guardstun you cause.

2) You are too far away. Takes some practice to learn the max possible range for the throw, but stand/crouch doesn't effect it much (or at all?)

5D isn't great. It's too slow to be a real mixup tool. It's OKAY to use once in a blue moon, but don't start relying on it for mixups.

There are a number of tricks to improve PB range. Break Buster (doing a tick with instant Hammerfall Break) is one obvious one. Doing Kara Walk Buster is another, IE doing 63214[6] hold for a few frames, before hitting P.

I'm almost positive its the first one. I got blown up a lot today trying to do oki by people mashing DP/2P, so I thought the faster the better, but that clearly isn't the case.

I'm still working on my tick grabs, but my execution on damn near everything is still pretty garbage. When I WAS in a decent position and the stars aligned, I got a 5P or a 5H when I needed a buster or a knuckle, so I'm thinking I got to reaaaally grind my execution before I start working on trick busters.

[Circuitous]

First day ever playing any guilty gear game and I just have a simple question. How do I get Gigantic bullet kai after Giganter kai?

41236 41236 P. You need to hit P a frame or two after the camera returns to normal. The window's a little tight, feels tighter than AC(?), but it's manageable.

[AKingNamedPaul]

41236 41236 P. You need to hit P a frame or two after the camera returns to normal. The window's a little tight, feels tighter than AC(?), but it's manageable.

Thanks man.

[wirestyle22]

Blitz Shield:

 

Standing: 1F-12F 38F 

Low: 1F-10F 46F

Air: 1F-8F Until Landing + 12F Guards all strikes/projectiles

 

If your opponent jabs and you successfully Blitz shield it, does that mean you're going to be at disadvantage because you still have over 20 frames of recovery left? If that's the case, the only stuff you can really punish would be extremely active (or a lot of frames overall) single hitting moves?

[Darlos9D]

Blitz Shield:

 

Standing: 1F-12F 38F 

Low: 1F-10F 46F

Air: 1F-8F Until Landing + 12F Guards all strikes/projectiles

 

If your opponent jabs and you successfully Blitz shield it, does that mean you're going to be at disadvantage because you still have over 20 frames of recovery left? If that's the case, the only stuff you can really punish would be extremely active (or a lot of frames overall) single hitting moves?

Pretty sure a successful blitz shield changes your animation to something that recovers quickly enough to punish.

[wirestyle22]

Pretty sure a successful blitz shield changes your animation to something that recovers quickly enough to punish.

 

Is there frame data listed anywhere? IDK what rejected means in terms of the opponent. Obviously it forces recovery frames, but I don't know what the number is.

[Red Star]

Is there frame data listed anywhere? IDK what rejected means in terms of the opponent. Obviously it forces recovery frames, but I don't know what the number is.

When they are rejected they are open to all attacks except they can blitz shield.  Not sure on the frame data but you can land pretty much any move with Pot after a successful Blitz shield as long as they are within range. Moves used against someone in rejected state seems to prorate, not sure again on the exact, looks like 20% less or something like that. The recovery only matters if you whiff, what move you reject doesn't seem to matter as far as I can tell. You can hit someone with a 6H with Pot if you reject their 5p or 6H, so you have plenty of time to hit them with anything.

[Henaki]

Earlier was playing, and had a thought. How much better would Pot be with a 720. What do you guys think?

im quoting this to say no, fuck 720s. 720s fucking suck because then arcsys has to balance around a 720, and you know how you balance around a 720? you make everything but the 720 good. heres the problem with 720s" they're insanely binary. potemkin is already a binary character as is, but you add a 720, suddenly all his deense has to be worse of other characters offense has to be better to get around the fact that 720 exists, and most characters play safely enough that you will not ladn a 720, so the existence of a 720 is you scare the shit out of people and its garbage at high level play. 720s are an excuse to make shitty, lame, polraizing grapplers that win through coin tosses, 720s do not make for good, well designed characters. worst of all 720s frustrate the SHIT out of new players, so usually you know what happens? thats right, your grappler is weaker because otherwise everyone quites the game because of...... 720s!

 

 

720s are fucking stupid.

[jak d ripr]

im quoting this to say no, fuck 720s. 720s fucking suck because then arcsys has to balance around a 720, and you know how you balance around a 720? you make everything but the 720 good. heres the problem with 720s" they're insanely binary. potemkin is already a binary character as is, but you add a 720, suddenly all his deense has to be worse of other characters offense has to be better to get around the fact that 720 exists, and most characters play safely enough that you will not ladn a 720, so the existence of a 720 is you scare the shit out of people and its garbage at high level play. 720s are an excuse to make shitty, lame, polraizing grapplers that win through coin tosses, 720s do not make for good, well designed characters. worst of all 720s frustrate the SHIT out of new players, so usually you know what happens? thats right, your grappler is weaker because otherwise everyone quites the game because of...... 720s!

 

 

720s are fucking stupid.

 

Damn.... looks like he struck a nerve there.

[D.R.F.]

I like it. Props to Henaki for the real talk

[noodalls]

Hi. My name is noodalls. I post mainly in Tekken forums, but a little bit everywhere. I've recently been getting some time in playing Xrd, using Potemkin like I did back in 2003. Anyway, the main reason I play games is to test things out. I've done some testing with Potemkin today.7

 

First thing i had a quick look at was the windows for red/yellow/purple RCs. Quickly looked at two moves, 6K and Potemkin buster. 6K YRC is F1-15, RRC is F16-50 and PRC is F51-57. PB YRC is F1-2 and RRC is F145-203. Are there any moves where it would be really useful to know this data? I can have a look if needed.

 

Next I had a look at Hammer Fall. Charge time is 29 frames (holding 4 from frame 0-29, 6HS on F30 is the fastest possible charge. No neutral in between required). To combo Hammerfall after 6K, you have to hit the 6HS on F31 or 32, meaning holding 4 on F1-30 or F2-31 (or F1-31). This was done at closest possible range, so should be more lenient the later 6K hits. Tested on Chip because that's the main of the person I verse.

 

Hammerfall breaks reduce the recover of HF from F67 to F46 if P is input on F31 (1F after the 6HS input). This was tested at far range, so that the HF didn't trigger early due to proximity.

 

Looked at 6K cancelled into HFb. Normally 6K ends on F58 (first frame where 8 input would work for a jump). Using ASAP HFb you can jump on F47, i.e. 11F better off.

 

Finally looked at 6K into FDB, done at close range. Again testing against Chipp, his 5frame P could be input on F48 or F49 only in between the two hits. Either way he would get counter hit.

 

Let me know if anyone has things they would like tested.

[mradam0]

Last place I was expecting to see you Noodalls, you've helped out tons with Tekken stuff, looking forward to see the data you can find on Pot.

[Angeluso]

Woa! Good stuff Noodalls, long time fan of the insightful stuff you did for the Tekken community!

[Dirty Magic]

So I'm a new Potemkin player, and I'm in love. Watching FAB is disgusting, his playstyle is right up my alley and I've already got quite a few notes added.

 

However, I feel like I might be missing some simple key elements in my game that would tighten things up.

I have more or less read every post in this thread, although perhaps I missed some info.

 

-I'm unaware of his safejump setups. I've seen FAB do jumps and strangely enough superjumps into a falling j.B ~ stuff; but I'm not sure of where of what it works.

 

-Mostly off of 2D I've been doing meaty 5K and either I get away with murder or it stuffs everything including grabs (sans reversals).

 

-So past setups, 2-3 OS', and misc tech is there anything I should always be doing in regards to Oki or pressure? FAB seems to use something like 2A 2S 6K, which seems to be a frame trap and gap closer. 

 

-Is Trishula useful for anything besides Trish YRC? Likely something very situational to warrant using it (Like Ky VT bait)? It's a cool move but it'd be disappointing if it had little utility in place of other moves or options.

 

-Also... What does I.C.P.M stand for Dx

Instant Crazy Potemkin Murder?

 

Thanks!

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

- Safe jump j.S is really solid, you can use it off a bunch of knockdowns but the timing changes on every character. Really obvious ones are off Buster (you can superjump off that one) and Slidehead (you've got all the time in the world). 2D you use a normal jump, I don't recall if it's 100% safe on everyone or not. Hard knockdown Heat Extend in the corner you get a normal jump setup IIRC.

- 5K stuffs things really well, but they can reversal backdash or DP or super or whatever to beat it. It's not a bad option but be aware of it's limitations.

- Pressure is complicated. You need to learn all kinds of tick setups, and more importantly backdash baits. Frame traps are very important too, knowing how to use 6K HFB to trap jumpouts, backdashes, etc. There's whole posts worth of stuff to talk about this subject. Good places to start are just learning to do perfect Hammerfall Breaks off all your normals, especially 6K and 6H which are the hard ones. And Hammerfall YRC -> PB will catch beginners for a while until they start reacting to it. I should probably do a writeup on this at some point, but keep watching FAB long enough and you should continue getting more good ideas on things you can do to help stay on top of people.

- Trishula is worthless except as a gimmick. My advice is to just not use it.

- ICPM is Intercontinental Potemkin Missile.

[Dirty Magic]

- Safe jump j.S is really solid, you can use it off a bunch of knockdowns but the timing changes on every character. Really obvious ones are off Buster (you can superjump off that one) and Slidehead (you've got all the time in the world). 2D you use a normal jump, I don't recall if it's 100% safe on everyone or not. Hard knockdown Heat Extend in the corner you get a normal jump setup IIRC.

- 5K stuffs things really well, but they can reversal backdash or DP or super or whatever to beat it. It's not a bad option but be aware of it's limitations.

- Pressure is complicated. You need to learn all kinds of tick setups, and more importantly backdash baits. Frame traps are very important too, knowing how to use 6K HFB to trap jumpouts, backdashes, etc. There's whole posts worth of stuff to talk about this subject. Good places to start are just learning to do perfect Hammerfall Breaks off all your normals, especially 6K and 6H which are the hard ones. And Hammerfall YRC -> PB will catch beginners for a while until they start reacting to it. I should probably do a writeup on this at some point, but keep watching FAB long enough and you should continue getting more good ideas on things you can do to help stay on top of people.

- Trishula is worthless except as a gimmick. My advice is to just not use it.

- ICPM is Intercontinental Potemkin Missile.

Thanks for the reply!

 

 

"- Safe jump j.S is really solid, you can use it off a bunch of knockdowns but the timing changes on every character. Really obvious ones are off Buster (you can superjump off that one) and Slidehead (you've got all the time in the world). 2D you use a normal jump, I don't recall if it's 100% safe on everyone or not. Hard knockdown Heat Extend in the corner you get a normal jump setup IIRC."

Okay but what is the timing and the like? Buster 29 at the earliest second falling j.B at the last second? Am I just trying to meaty time it by feel? Because I've imitated it but I've been beaten out so I figured maybe there was a visual or timing cue I wasn't using.

 

 

"- 5K stuffs things really well, but they can reversal backdash or DP or super or whatever to beat it. It's not a bad option but be aware of it's limitations."

 

Reversal backdash? Are they invincible from frame 0? Doesn't seem like that should/could work to me but perhaps I'm ignorant of something.

 

 

For some reason I didn't get a reply notification, I thought I was following this thread after I made a post in it =[

 

Anyways thanks for the help, still working on 6K loops but the YRC stuff I seem to have added to my deck. Trishula pls 

[Koozebanian Fazoob]

There's no real cue for the safe jump after PB or anything. Every character has different wakeup timings and different weights and such, so you just have to learn them all. It's pretty hard, but you don't have to be super precise since most DPs have 5F+ of startup and you can block on the same frame you land on the ground.

Yes you can reversal backdash, they are invuln from the first frame for every character.

[Flick]

 

Okay but what is the timing and the like? Buster 29 at the earliest second falling j.B at the last second? Am I just trying to meaty time it by feel? Because I've imitated it but I've been beaten out so I figured maybe there was a visual or timing cue I wasn't using.

 

 

You can try judging the timing on Potemkin's forward step. Like this: PB>hold 6 until you see Potemkin walk enough step>sj.jS. For eg: with Sol, you can sj right after you see Po walk his tiny little first step. That's the way i do the safe jump and it works good

But beware of some character like Chipp, he wakes up quite slow

[Dirty Magic]

There's no real cue for the safe jump after PB or anything. Every character has different wakeup timings and different weights and such, so you just have to learn them all. It's pretty hard, but you don't have to be super precise since most DPs have 5F+ of startup and you can block on the same frame you land on the ground.

Yes you can reversal backdash, they are invuln from the first frame for every character.

 

 

Mm yeah, so just meaty with it.

 

Also I have never seen anyone successfully backdash my 5K, I thought they'd get caught in the active frames, but I'm not sure how the wakeup window works I suppose. I mean heck I don't even get grabbed =S

 

 

 

 

You can try judging the timing on Potemkin's forward step. Like this: PB>hold 6 until you see Potemkin walk enough step>sj.jS. For eg: with Sol, you can sj right after you see Po walk his tiny little first step. That's the way i do the safe jump and it works good

But beware of some character like Chipp, he wakes up quite slow

Hmm, I'll defn give that a try thanks. 

 

 

This will sound silly, but if I get the j.B hit what should I lead into? Assuming 6K stuffs corner, and probably a short confirm into heat knuckle mid?

Also I read earlier that if it gets blocked I should just go into 2A, so I could do 2A 2S 6K frame trap stuffs.