[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[Skye]

Why don't you just frame trap with 2D instead then

I don't think that frame traps into 5d and 2d are interchangeable.

More traps, more options.

[Fluck]

It's not like frame traps rely on reaction like overheads. If they hit a button, they're purely guessing/reading, and you do a frame trap to call that out. In what kind of situation would 5D would work, while 2D fails?

[WolfCrimson]

Actually Fluck is right, and in fact 2D is a better option, you have time to hitconfirm off of it due to the bounce on CH, and the subsequent combo is good.

It's just that I don't like 5D being useless as a starter.

[LuminAbyss]

Since CS2, 5D wasn't that great (or common) of a starter anyway, so we didn't lose a whole lot. It's hitbox will still be useful against Noel certain characters and you could always just Hell's Fang ender after it on ground hit.

[WolfCrimson]

But in CS2 and CSE, 5D CH could be dash cancelled and followed up with 5A, and gotten some damage off of it. Whereas in CP, Ragna couldn't even do that. 5D HF ender is just... pathetic, mang.

[YukiBlue]

Good carry though. I guess they've never been kind to previous Top Tiers, It's like a vicious cycle of internal malice over at ASW.

[Skye]

It's not like frame traps rely on reaction like overheads. If they hit a button, they're purely guessing/reading, and you do a frame trap to call that out. In what kind of situation would 5D would work, while 2D fails?

Situations where the opponent is conditioned to 2d traps. It's the variety that matters.

[KayEff]

skye, no competent ragna player will ever use 5D in a blockstring.

let's just leave it at that.

[DogsofWar]

What about 5D> DS> dash cancel> whatever has enough range to connect at that point? I havent seen enough footage of new deadspike to estimate what would connect but it may work. Actually thinking about it HF would probably work better off of 5D(1) due to the buffs HF received.

Edited January 8, 2013 by DogsofWar

[Fluck]

Situations where the opponent is conditioned to 2d traps. It's the variety that matters.

Ok, so...I condition my opponent with 2C -> 2D. They know it's a frametrap and therefore...don't mash. And now, I do 2C -> 5D. They know a frametrap is coming after 2C and therefore...they mash? That's not how it works.

[LuminAbyss]

I think what he means is they'll expect the 2D frame trap after 2C, and use some method to avoid it entirely. Instant blocking 2C isn't hard, so they could jump, many characters can reversal, guard point, or even jab out.

5D, on the other hand, has a hitbox and properties that prevent many of these options. It'll still lose to reversals, but it's second hit may help in preventing guard points, and it's air unblockable first hit will catch jumpers and moves that hop over low hitboxes (Noel's 2D comes to mind).

That kind of variety is what he's talking about, I'd expect.

[Skye]

@Fluck

I don't think that frame traps into 5d and 2d are interchangeable.

More traps, more options.

So frame traps into 5d will involve a different string. Not just 2c.

[MashThat5A]

This thread is always great for a laugh.

[KayEff]

skye if you don't play this character please shut up

do you want me to go into arakune boards and tell all the people there that everyone should be using arakune's 3C

[mAc Chaos]

its good mixup

[LuminAbyss]

its good mixup

that mid/low mix-up is too strong.

[Tong]

Speaking of which, can we still do HF without getting punished (sans IB) on block? I know the hitstun was reduced, but it always had strange amounts of blockstun/hitstun so maybe the blockstun is still intact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yj4kFkqasJE#t=55s

[LuminAbyss]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Yj4kFkqasJE#t=55s

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-

EDIT: on second thought, I think later in the vid Ronitta successfully IBs and punishes it with 5B. Gonna go ahead and say frame advantage is the same.

http://youtu.be/Yj4kFkqasJE?t=6m10s

Edited January 9, 2013 by LuminAbyss

[skd]

I wouldn't get too excited. if instant blocking hasn't changed that's only a 1f(buffer works, but still) window to punish hf(assuming that remained unchanged as well), with changed hitstop it's not out of the question that he messed that up. plus, there are still faster moves :v

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[skd]

I guess I can't edit on my phone...but 6:10 in the same video I'm fairly certain he punishes it properly!

oh, guess I can edit. and look at that he edited his post too. curse you slow ass phone keyboard

Edited January 9, 2013 by not_lunaris

[WolfCrimson]

skye, no competent ragna player will ever use 5D in a blockstring.

let's just leave it at that.

But... I've seen japanese players use 5D(1) DS dc... does that count?

Edited January 9, 2013 by WolfCrimson

[KayEff]

you're making the assumption that jp players equals competent players

[Skye]

skye if you don't play this character please shut up

do you want me to go into arakune boards and tell all the people there that everyone should be using arakune's 3C

I play Ragna. I've used 5d in block strings, results have been beneficial, and I have been commended for excelling in pressure overall.

Your opinions are always welcome in the Arakune forums. If you honestly feel that 3c is useful standalone, please discuss your reasoning.

[WolfCrimson]

you're making the assumption that jp players equals competent players

Sorry, i should have been more clear: competent jp players, like hara and kaqn

[Fluck]

I play Ragna. I've used 5d in block strings, results have been beneficial, and I have been commended for excelling in pressure overall.

Your opinions are always welcome in the Arakune forums. If you honestly feel that 3c is useful standalone, please discuss your reasoning.

If you really played Ragna you'd know that 2D is available from every gatling that 5D is available for, and available for some that 5D isn't (like 6C).