[CP] Ragna Gameplay Discussion

[Lucalibur]

I think that is from where we developed shit like Blocked Hells Fang>ID. The tools were definitely not meant to be used like that, but there is the rare time it does works and you get something out of it. If you only use ID when you got meter(which is probably how it was intended to be used) then, while it does its job, it also becomes a very limited tool(Aka it send us back to how I think the blocked Hells Fang>ID punish gimmick was created). Using it in ways not intended to be used is basically like thinking outside of the box. Sure, that is basically a must with every character, but in Ragna's case it is specially rewarding to do since he is so simple once you get down to it.

That is just my opinion though.

[floatwater]

truthfully at this point in the game with CP, an overhead isn't gonna cut it as a mix-up. you see every JP player block it all the time, and BS doesn't do very much but reset pressure that's MIGHT be in your favor. so being innovative on the spot is basically Ragna's mix-up in itself, but you have to take into account (grab mashing, mashing 2A, DP, all that stuff) because it can ruin lives. and as titanium said "playing Ragna 100% in a honest way isn't gonna cut it" (it really doesn't). but also playing SMART is what we always have to do. In Ex he really wasn't "FREE WINS HUEHUEHUE" in high level play. i could go on about it but all of you get it i'm sure of

[Lucalibur]

The case in EX IMO is that he was simply rewarded a lot for his bad mixups. 6B went into 3K to 4K meterless depending on the screen position but it was still a terrible overhead, so on the rare times it did hit everyone went "WOW SO MUCH DAMAGE THIS IS STUPID", so while it was rough for us, we did get a lot out of it, so it was still worth going for it every now and then. Like you(Crossfire) said, an overhead simply ain't gonna cut it as a mixup by this point. At least not our overhead. Burning meter with D DP crossups, crazy GH RCs and god knows what else is probably going to be our go to mixup from now on. Might throw out the random 6B every now and then since it still gives good reward on the corner(Not gonna complain over almost 4K with decent meter gain by CP standards).

[ADS627]

The disheartening thing is that these problems/complaints have been around for 5 games now, so the message from the designers is "working as intended." That's a bit why I'm not enthusiastic about playing him. Same shit, different day, except no 22c oki.

[YukiBlue]

People don't like losing the barebones character of the game. It's a weird thing where people believe they should always win if they play a character that has high execution requirements. I can't tell you how many Litchi players have sent me Love mail because they got bopped hard by Bang 3C.

People get salty over ID, Big damage, Easy combos and godlike normals. They won't look past that, I didn't for all of CS1 and half of CS2 before I actually went into the lab with the guy and realised that yeah, his combos are some of the easiest in the game, his 5B is lolgood and his air control is pretty strong. But without a good neutral and some solid fundamentals, you're not going to win even a few of your games. You need to know how to move incredibly well.

Now if you can do that, Ragna is by now means a slouch in EX. I feel dat power everytime I land a 6B midscreen, the damage is incredible. And with 50 heat I can convert a stray hit into 3.5/4K ish and full carry.

His mixup may be below average, but who is to say Rushdown characters always need good mixups? His mixup is alright. But his "Footsies" are still based and his pressure does look better now.

I don't even play Ragna, but I dropped my 2Cents here because im bored.

[Skye]

The people that lost to Ragna in EX are still going to lose to him in CP, since he still has good hitboxes, and a 23 frame overhead. However, against people that actually knew how to block/deal with his hitboxes, he has an even harder time.

Very sorry if I come off as presumptuous by asking this, but doesn't this apply to most other characters, especially in the respect of the "block/deal with his hitboxes" line?

[MashThat5A]

Very sorry if I come off as presumptuous by asking this, but doesn't this apply to most other characters, especially in the respect of the "block/deal with his hitboxes" line?

Fair question. While this applies to other characters, they also have things to make up for it. For example, Litchi has an excellent neutral game, and even if you can block her, she can force you to block. If you don't block her overhead 10% of the time, it's easier for her to get those 10 chances to make you have to block it. I'd argue that the characters that this most applies to are the ones that are regarded as bad (Makoto, Tsubaki). In EX, Ragna makes up for this by punishing you heavily for the (what should be rare) time that you mess up. In CP, he losses this.

Oh, and i don't know who's idea it was to make neither version of Blood Scythe an overhead, but lol.

Edited May 6, 2013 by MashThat5A

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

I just don't get what the goal for Ragna's character is. There literally seems to be no positive to playing him offensively, and yet he's billed as a "rushdown" character by the game's own tutorial. He either needs a somewhat legitimate way to keep pressure, or better mixups. I personally prefer the former (probably cuz of being a HOS player), but it seems like he will continue to be the poster child for Mori's "ideal" of how the game should be played, and as such will continue to get bodied by characters who play outside of those rules, just like every prior game.

I really wish they'd give back a lot of his old gatlings. Give me all the 6A gatlings from CS1 back please. That would literally fix the majority of my complaints. Also, give back the 6B gatlings too. Seriously, as slow as that overhead is, there's no excuse.

[Skye]

I saw the recent iterations of Ragna to be more about pressure and punishing. He always yielded results like that from what I've seen.

It's also the way I play him, rely more on pressure than mixups.

Imo

[KayEff]

i see ragna more as a meter heavy character now, especially since they butchered all his meterless options. i haven't been looking at ragna's meter gain as of late, but i'm guessing it's not any better than the rest of the characters.

[skd]

WELL in my own exp...

i dont play in japan or anything, but isnt ragna just like, footsies and solid pressure? his mixup is...okay. grabs are good, and yield really high reward. I dont really have issues winning on neutral control and playing honestly. Hes a really "2p" character, if that makes any sense. You should be playing around your opponent. A lot of his strength comes from simply having answers and strong options to deal with other characters (and the damage to really back it up). I really disagree with having to play gimmicky to do well with him.

i see ragna more as a meter heavy character now, especially since they butchered all his meterless options. i haven't been looking at ragna's meter gain as of late, but i'm guessing it's not any better than the rest of the characters.

your meter return on a 2D RC combo is like 8 meter orz

general meter gain peaks at like...30ish iirc?

[MashThat5A]

I saw the recent iterations of Ragna to be more about pressure and punishing.

In EX, Ragna makes up for this by punishing you heavily for the (what should be rare) time that you mess up. In CP, he losses this.

Just saying.

General meter gain is pretty bad. I think average meter gain for Ragna stuff is about 20-23.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MashThat5A

[Lucalibur]

I really wish they'd give back a lot of his old gatlings. Give me all the 6A gatlings from CS1 back please. That would literally fix the majority of my complaints. Also, give back the 6B gatlings too. Seriously, as slow as that overhead is, there's no excuse.

Don't think I ever agreed with someone as much I'm agreeing with here.

[floatwater]

I just don't get what the goal for Ragna's character is. There literally seems to be no positive to playing him offensively, and yet he's billed as a "rushdown" character by the game's own tutorial. He either needs a somewhat legitimate way to keep pressure, or better mixups. I personally prefer the former (probably cuz of being a HOS player), but it seems like he will continue to be the poster child for Mori's "ideal" of how the game should be played, and as such will continue to get bodied by characters who play outside of those rules, just like every prior game.

I would assume is to "win" but if you mean playstyle then it could be a handful of things. Common one would be Good nuetral, High pressure. sub par mix up. Opening up the opponent. he really has no other choice but to play a midscreen game or keep up on the person. more so you have to make the opponent make bad decisions (if that even sounds right).

[mAc Chaos]

but it seems like he will continue to be the poster child for Mori's "ideal" of how the game should be played, and as such will continue to get bodied by characters who play outside of those rules, just like every prior game.

What ideal do you see him trying to push on Ragna?

Ragna reminds me of Hakumen. You basically have solid tools and just adapt to the opponent to body them.

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Thing is, I don't see his pressure as being good. I would otherwise agree with you guys. Neutral, yes, he's awesome at neutral. But as soon as someone decides to just block his stuff and interrupt whenever you do anything slow/risky to regain pressure, his offense breaks down. This is my experience, anyway.

As far as character concept, Ragna always reminds me of early interviews with Mori where he basically had the idea of making a 2D version of Soul Calibur, where the game was based upon the neutral game instead of advantageous pressure/oki situations. Hence why Ragna plays the way he does, super good neutral but overall most of his attacks are negative on block and the moves that aren't are slow or risky to do.

Edited May 7, 2013 by TITANIUM BEAST!!!

[WolfCrimson]

As long as you can get that win in the end, it's fine.

[BlackYakuzu94]

I do kinda have to agree with Titanium Beast, Ragna's pressure isn't too great but I feel that means you just think outside the box to win with the tools to do have.

[Tong]

I just don't get what the goal for Ragna's character is. There literally seems to be no positive to playing him offensively, and yet he's billed as a "rushdown" character by the game's own tutorial. He either needs a somewhat legitimate way to keep pressure, or better mixups. I personally prefer the former (probably cuz of being a HOS player), but it seems like he will continue to be the poster child for Mori's "ideal" of how the game should be played, and as such will continue to get bodied by characters who play outside of those rules, just like every prior game.

I really wish they'd give back a lot of his old gatlings. Give me all the 6A gatlings from CS1 back please. That would literally fix the majority of my complaints. Also, give back the 6B gatlings too. Seriously, as slow as that overhead is, there's no excuse.

Well, it's not like they decided to nerf his pressure or anything, it's just because his strings are intrinsically linked to his combos, and they wanted to get rid off stupid combos anyway.

Same deal with the loss of Dash cancels on CP. Then they try to make up for it by adding new properties to moves, but in the end his blockstrings stay limited.

Unless they implement something like on-block only cancels, can't see him getting back pre-CS2 material.

[Skye]

What gatlings did he lose aside from 6b > c move?

[heavymetalmixer]

What gatlings did he lose aside from 6b > c move?

Only that and the Dash cancels, aside from that there are some bufs

[Skye]

Then I don't really see how his pressure took one for the team. His usual tools are still there, from what I've heard, dash cancel in pressure would result in a free hit anyway, and his 6a and 6b were/are used in situations outside of straight pressure, right? Anti-air and mixups. Okay, he lost the ability to reliably convert a failed attempt of either into pressure, but I don't think that's so damning. Perhaps there's something I'm not seeing here, but I hadn't seen Ragna players suffer at all really. Not any more than they've always been.

[MashThat5A]

EX:

Bad pressure, bad mixups, good neutral, great damage

CP:

Bad pressure, bad mixups, good neutral, bad damage

Pressure got nerfed if CP since now the only move we they

lolTao

have that's plus besides 2C has 40 frame startup. Also, people aren't saying his pressure took one for the team, they're saying that there was never a team to begin with.

If you think Ragna's pressure is good in a game with Tao...

Also before someone says 6D, IB barrier.

Edited May 7, 2013 by MashThat5A

[floatwater]

Thing is, I don't see his pressure as being good. I would otherwise agree with you guys. Neutral, yes, he's awesome at neutral. But as soon as someone decides to just block his stuff and interrupt whenever you do anything slow/risky to regain pressure, his offense breaks down. This is my experience, anyway.

As far as character concept, Ragna always reminds me of early interviews with Mori where he basically had the idea of making a 2D version of Soul Calibur, where the game was based upon the neutral game instead of advantageous pressure/oki situations. Hence why Ragna plays the way he does, super good neutral but overall most of his attacks are negative on block and the moves that aren't are slow or risky to do.

His pressure is SOLID. I would say he's one of those type of characters that if you get ahead of yourself with him you'll get blown up. pick and choose your strings wisely, keep them tight and occasionally risk it. He'll always be High risk/Mid-high reward(?). it's not like with Litchi, Relius, Carl where they have other things that can cover the holes that they have. And people with high mobility like Tao where pressure is, very low.

[YukiBlue]

Ragna was incredibly solid in EX. Coupled with his incredible damage, you get what you get. I don't think his pressure was bad at all tbh.