[P4AU] Rise Kujikawa Gameplay Discussion

[haotshy]

Rise vs. Yukiko is quite possibly the worst matchup in the game. At least I have yet to see one so one-sided.

 

It's fine. Just don't rely on Rise's ranged tools very much (that goes for fighting against any zoners as Rise) and just be patient and smart with how you approach. Once you're in you can take advantage of Yukiko's slow normals and just watch out for the DP.

[JyakotuKurayami]

Risette is now my new main. I enjoy playing with her very much. And you can't go wrong with Twinkle*Star! :D

[DeltaGamer147]

If you're still doing the rise skype chat, count me in too

Skype is DeltaGamer or matt.minifie

I'm active on weekends so hola at me.

[maso]

So Yosuke's DP breaks meaty note oki completely. Ugh. Other characters either trade favorable or can be baited, but it looks like he can just get out for free once he sees you commit to meaty B note because you trip just before you can jump. Mashing hysterical slap or DP afterwards for invincibility doesn't work because he has invincibility too.

Ending combos in scans seems much more preferable in general, tho that generally requires 25 SP.

[Justice7541]

So Yosuke's DP breaks meaty note oki completely. Ugh. Other characters either trade favorable or can be baited, but it looks like he can just get out for free once he sees you commit to meaty B note because you trip just before you can jump. Mashing hysterical slap or DP afterwards for invincibility doesn't work because he has invincibility too.

Ending combos in scans seems much more preferable in general, tho that generally requires 25 SP.

 

Yosuke's DP is 1f startup once triggered, it can't be safejumped unless you've already totally recovered by the time your attack hits him.  It's also extremely active and relatively safe on block so your best bet is probably just to call out his DP outright and don't give him anything to counter at all.

 

It's dumb but Yosuke is top tier for a reason.

[QSpec]

How do you deal with zoners?

 

In my very, very limited experience they shut down my C and D (especially D... think I'm at 100% for getting it hit vs Yukari) outside of combos almost entirely, and I have a hard time getting in on them without anything to really lock them down.

[Justice7541]

j.C a lot and play standard footsies.  Rise doesn't have a "get in free" tool but she's not exactly slow either.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

The best way to deal with zoners is to not let them get started to begin with. If you let them get their zoning started, you'll have to work your way in slowly. For this part, I highly recommend taking the time to watch some vids of high level players fighting the zoners that give you trouble. They don't have to be matches involving Rise. You just want to get a general idea of how people deal with certain stuff in the zoner's gameplan to give you ideas.

I don't really think Rise has anything too specific to her that helps her deal with zoners though. Justice already brought up j.C (don't forget you can still use air movements after j.C if you haven't used them already). If you have 50 meter, you can also consider super jumping to a safe spot in the area and summoning the Risette Field to start setting up mines and disrupt their zoning. Just be sure to keep track of whether Yukari has a Garu out so she doesn't snipe you with a tracking arrow. Kind of wish Tetrakarn and Makarakarn were air OK. Makarakarn would be mildly useful against zoners if I could do it in the air.

[QSpec]

Yeah Yukari was the really rough one.  Garu made a physical block to stop me from running in easily while it also provides the threat of an arrow any place on the screen.  The recovery on D is so bad that it was completely unusable for me outside of combos, but I did get some mileage out of 2C (can both hit the persona and provide a threat that can't easily be blocked by projectiles).

 

I think your bit about not letting them get started is key though.  I'm still very new and I'm not confident, so I have a habit of backing off to get ground and take time which is likely exactly what I don't need to do vs a zoner.

 

More character specific, vs Yukiko can you punish her getting levels at range?  And how to deal with her FA which kept bursting me away?  Does it need to be baited?  Or is there something I can do to punish it earlier than that?

[Justice7541]

Yeah Yukari was the really rough one.  Garu made a physical block to stop me from running in easily while it also provides the threat of an arrow any place on the screen.  The recovery on D is so bad that it was completely unusable for me outside of combos, but I did get some mileage out of 2C (can both hit the persona and provide a threat that can't easily be blocked by projectiles).

 

I think your bit about not letting them get started is key though.  I'm still very new and I'm not confident, so I have a habit of backing off to get ground and take time which is likely exactly what I don't need to do vs a zoner.

 

More character specific, vs Yukiko can you punish her getting levels at range?  And how to deal with her FA which kept bursting me away?  Does it need to be baited?  Or is there something I can do to punish it earlier than that?

 

You need to bait it.  Unfortunately since it's projectile invul you can't rely on note active frames to trade with it, but on the plus side it's also really slow so a lot of stuff can easily recover in time to block it, provided you aren't fooled by the long startup and end up pressing buttons too early.

 

In general you don't have to call out a DP that hard, there are strings that can be used to bait out mashing while continuing pressure if they don't press anything.  The easy one is something like doing a blocked 2B, jumping forward and immediately blocking, then pressing j.B on the way down.  Of course they can react to your bait attempt with various other things but at the very least it'll make them more hesitant to mash DP every chance they get.

[maso]

Yeah, I've comw to realize Yukari is way more annoying. Yukiko at least has to stay put during alot of her moves and can't snipe you EVERYWHERE.

I somehow had no idea about the j.C being cancellable into air movement though, thanks for pointing that out. I was actually struggling to figure out how to get past Yukari mindlessly spamming that multihit arrow move to shut down IADs and dash-ins.

[QSpec]

Some random questions from a very new P4 player:

 

What is your primary neutral tool?  5a seems to have too short of a range to be extremely useful.  Is 5b or 2b safe on block?  Safe enough to use anyway?

 

Is airturn hugely important for Rise?  I seem to whiff a lot of j.b that seem as if airturn would have hit.  Or maybe it is super important for all characters?  It is a new mechanic for me coming from other fighters, and I certainly don't use it like I should.

 

How do you use d (any of them).  Right now it is just a good way for me to get Persona broken.

 

How useful is 2c+d really?  I'm getting a ton of mileage out of it right now, but I'm also playing at a level in which people just absolutely refuse to block.  I imagine it drops off (significantly?) later on?

 

Anyway, thanks for the help!

[maso]

Getting them to block D is still good.

I'm by no means an expert (in fact I'm casual as hell and autopilot alot), but my primary neutral tool is definetly j.b. It's usually better to use IAD j.b than risking a dash-in unless you can punish something.

You'll wanna be careful throwing out D moves in neutral because you're open as hell doing it. It's ok sometimes, but try to use it mainly during combos and on wakeup (particularly after air combos). If you're behind the cover of arrow rain, you can sometimes get away with throwing it out as well. If the opponent respects the laser, start delaying it by holding down D to give you more time to get in.

Air turn is very important for cross up shenanigans, so do get in the habit of using it early.

2C is a tool I should use a lot more, but don't for some reason. Its extremely punishable, but has good reward on block or hit. It's ok in neutral when the enemy gets paranoid about j.b and antiairs alot, not so much when they constantly rushdown and mash out of stuff.

[JyakotuKurayami]

Question: I normally don't try to get my opponents scanned, but I'm wondering if I should bother even doing so? I normally am able to win without getting the opponent scanned, but I honestly don't do it because I don't know HOW to get my opponents in the scanned state without them blocking. Any advice?

[QSpec]

In my very inexperienced view, scanned state is a "bonus".  It is the punishment severe enough that your opponent needs to block.  If they do block D, you get a fairly easy in which is what I see as the reward of the move.

 

There are combos that apply scanned state, but the ones I've found all have a microdash in them, the timing of which I can't get down yet so I've not bothered. 

[Complexity]

Question: I normally don't try to get my opponents scanned, but I'm wondering if I should bother even doing so? I normally am able to win without getting the opponent scanned, but I honestly don't do it because I don't know HOW to get my opponents in the scanned state without them blocking. Any advice?

I actually don't think scan is very useful outside of trying to get in with disc and certain arrow rain unblockable setups. Shouldn't be an active part of your gameplan.

If you manage to get a 5d off and your opponent doesn't punish you for it, you can hold 5d and dash in, releasing d when you feel like they would try to punish your running in. That's normally how most people get scanned for me, and then I toss a disc after that to get in.

Also, scan messes up disc combos. You normally want it after a combo for free disc get in.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

In case people haven't seen it yet, putting this here to let people know this is a thing now

Just going to throw my 2 cents in on the recent topic quickly here. At 56 frames of startup, it's unrealistic to expect your opponent to get hit by a D most of the time. As people mentioned in previous replies, D normals are best used to cover approaches. As Complexity said, holding D can not only enhance the D normals ability to cover your approach, it can also lock them down for one good mixup in some cases. That said, it's important to make use of a mixture of D and hold D, with more focus on doing regular Ds. The issue here is mostly that if you condition your opponent to expect you to hold D too much, then they'll start trying to get out of the area that the D normal will hit or jump into the air to give themselves more options once they get out of blockstun while not having to worry about mixups. If you have the player more conditioned to expect the regular D instead, then they'll react slower to holding D because they'll be anticipating the D normal coming out immediately.

tl:dr, play around with your usage of D and hold D to get the most out of them.

[maso]

To add to that, just cut your combos short if you manage to poke them while they're scanned. Ideally go for sweep > D disc, but you can pretty much throw D disc whenever. If they air block it you can SB arrow rain to keep them locked down for awhile, or maybe even cross them under.

And to reiterate because it's so damn important, USE D TO COVER APPROACHES. Randomly timed D is actually pretty scary. Just be careful not to be predictable with it.

If you're feelung cheeky, and are quick, counterhit D into B note combo gives decent damage and really scary oki. You'll only be able to do it if your opponent badly whiffs something though. I've only ever used it to punish a few slow, bad recovery DPs such as Ken's.

[rubedo777]

To whoever wrote the Rise wiki:

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Rise_Kujikawa_%28P4AU%29

There's some things I want to correct:

 

1) There actually is a difference between her C and D Risette Fields. The D one has longer startup but has quite a bit of startup invincibility (though not full). You can see this easily by making Rise do both moves (as a cpu dummy) on top of Yu and then making Yu mash dp. If you mash it, his dp will go straight through the D version though if Yu waits as much as possible, he can then hit her with a dp. The invincibility is pretty useful in some cases, like against jumpins where you will get stuffed out of the startup if you use the C version.

 

2) The CD Risette Fields has much faster startup but i don't think has that invincibility...the startup is much faster than C version. You forgot to mention that the orbs are active for a much shorter time than the C or D version.

 

3) You can combo into Rise Live on Stage from a detonated orb...the way I typically do it is let the first 3 orbs hit, then roll forward so the 4th detonates (from the roll input) and you input Rise Live on Stage the moment the explosion occurs. The purpose of the roll is that the detonation pushes the opponent back a bit, possibly out of reach of the awakening super. In the corner there's no need to roll, just detonate after the first 3 orbs hit. Also I'm very sure the CD version of this super comes out *slightly* faster, because I have another combo from one more burst and the timing feels much more strict using the CD version than C or D. Might want to test that somehow.

 

4) Hysterical Slap super is actually invincible for the full dash, you can go through a lot of things with this, It's especially useful against supers that you know the opponent wants to OMC afterwards, they won't be able to OMC it if you punish with this.

[RurouniLoneWolf]

You do realize you can just edit the wiki yourself at anytime and correct whoever wrote all that, right?

[Cashus]

Question, after sweep into Rock you A, what kind of mix up can you get off of it?  Like are Rise players making notes explode for a cross up or something?

[Justice7541]

Question, after sweep into Rock you A, what kind of mix up can you get off of it?  Like are Rise players making notes explode for a cross up or something?

 

 

- Pop with B normal > 2C = airtight 2C set, use the 2C for mixups or combos.

- Pop with B normal > 22B/A+B = airtight lightning set, same as 2C

- Pop with 236A/A+B = airtight pressure reset into any action

- 5AA rising j.B = un/crossup depending on timing if they don't stand up to block it

- Meaty 5B/2B that detonates note = explosion trades favorably with most DPs since they lose blue health too

 

[Greater Force]

Hello. I was wondering if anyone could share with me some SMALL Shadow Rise combos for her shadow frenzy. I can't seem to get her supers to chain together at all. Is there any way to say, chain Hysterical Slap to Rise Live on Stage, or just into another Hysterical Slap?

Thinking of using her alot more with these shadow buffs (I originally wanted to main her but Marie stole the show lol).

Any help/advice would be appreciated.

If nothing small is possible, combos that I can easily break into parts would be good, for shadow frenzy.

[Justice7541]

Hello. I was wondering if anyone could share with me some SMALL Shadow Rise combos for her shadow frenzy. I can't seem to get her supers to chain together at all. Is there any way to say, chain Hysterical Slap to Rise Live on Stage, or just into another Hysterical Slap?

Thinking of using her alot more with these shadow buffs (I originally wanted to main her but Marie stole the show lol).

Any help/advice would be appreciated.

If nothing small is possible, combos that I can easily break into parts would be good, for shadow frenzy.

 

I've messed around with her and wasn't able to find anything great, damage-wise.  But stuff I did find/mess around with:

 

- SB Risette Field (orbiters) makes ALL of Rise's normals unburstable while it's hitting.

- Risette Fields can be detonated during Hysterical Slap for a bit of extra damage

- Hysterical Slap can be OMC'd into Risette Live in corner (requires a bit of timing)

 

So it is possible to do something like Rampage > Risette Field > Hysterical Slap OMC Risette Live, but it does like no damage.

 

Shadow Rise is primarily good because of Rampage unblockable gimmicks which can pile on a fair chunk of free damage if they ever drop below 50 meter when she has 100.  You can do stuff like blocked 5A at start of second round > 5AA Rampage 5AA 2B 236C+D 236B 22A+B 236A+B dash SB Risette Live for an airtight unblockable string into about 5k.  Still really just a gimmick though unfortunately.

[Greater Force]

I might just wait and see just how buffed Shadow Rise gets before trying her then. Thanks.