chzchan Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Ah I go for 5B > sj.BCC > j.D > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214A. I feel that this is worth doing now that doing this route actually tacks on a good amount of damage.
BatousaiJ Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Ah I go for 5B > sj.BCC > j.D > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214A. I feel that this is worth doing now that doing this route actually tacks on a good amount of damage. Ya, that's good. It's not a difficult combo and the bit of extra damage and charge never hurts.
Shruikon Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 That method won't work in the corner as j.214A will hit the enemy, the j.236(A) whiff is a bit weird when you just start to use it but the timing really isn't too hard, I recommend just biting the bullet and learning it instead. As far as I've tested this only happens off of a point blank 5CC 623C confirm, any other normals will let the j.214A whiff. That said I've been practicing the j.236A(w) more and I have it down a bit more consistently now, I think my problem was mostly not pressing 5C after the whiff soon enough. Re: Large chars and Makoto Large chars you can still get 200 more damage with the 5B > 2C route but for Makoto the 5B > sj.BCC > j.D > j.B > dj.BCC > j.214A route does like 150 less damage than just going for the much easier normals > 236A > 214D > 5C > 2C > 214B > 5C > 2CC > j.C > j.CC > j.236A > j.214A route
chzchan Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 That easier route is super not optimal and does much less damage than the route that lets you get in a 6CC. If I can get the timing down on the 623C > j.236A(dw) > 5C2C > 236D > 6CC I should be getting max damage even on the characters that make the 5C followup regularly difficult.
Shruikon Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Ohhh. Okay. This is why we need to be more clear about what combo route we're discussing. I thought we were just discussing like, 5BB > 5CC > 236D, not 5BB > 5CC > 623C > j.236A(w) > 5C > 2C > 236D. This 6CC route isn't /too/ bad actually, you just need to hit the 5C 2C asap so they're high enough for 6CC to hit. And if there's not enough height then dashing 5C > 2C seems to work fine for me on the aforementioned characters except Makoto, not having any problems with it on the larger characters though (Haku/Tager)
chzchan Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 Yeah, sorry for not clarifying, though I think it was originally about just raw 236D. You can't do 5C2C on Makoto regardless. The difference between 236A > 214D and 623C > j.236A(dw) > 5C2C > 236D > 6CC routes is like 400 damage which is quite a lot.
Zouf Posted April 24, 2015 Posted April 24, 2015 236D > 6CC looks very inconsistant, to not say impossible with the right setup and a good chunk of luck. God Konan doesn't even use it afaik.
Shruikon Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 'Impossible without the right setup' is kind of grossly exaggerating. It's really not that inconsistent at all actually, and it's pretty easy to see if you've got the height to go for 6CC or not, and if not then go for dash 5C2C.
chzchan Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 I have so far never pulled it off in a fight. Still working on it.
Shruikon Posted April 25, 2015 Posted April 25, 2015 Yeah, I am admittedly talking about training mode. I haven't really played any matches yet and I'm expecting to just drop every 623C > j.236A(w) for the first few, haha.
chzchan Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 Fighting Tager is ridiculously hard now. I have been mixing in 5B > 22D and 5B > jc> etc. since 22D is +2 on block and I stay away from 5B > 6C when he has OD stocked. I have tried doing Mugen just to do 5B > 22D for as long as I can even though it seems like a waste.
chzchan Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 22D keeps me out of grab range and has no gap when used after 5B, but I just really don't know what to do. I guess it has been keeping them from jumping/mashing because netplay. Any tips besides run away?
BatousaiJ Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 623C > 236(A) > 5C > 2C > 236D > 6CC is tricky but it's not quite as hard as you might think. The real annoyance comes from the awkward switching of timing required on half the roster is different from the rest. The one good thing about this route is that you can get a feel for when 6CC isn't going to work so you can often just shift the combo route to the standard dash 5C > 2C > 214B route when you feel that's the case for only a small penalty in damage in the most common BnB scenario starting from 5BB > 5CC > etc etc. I also figured out a way to decrease the difficulty of the ridiculous 22[b} for maximum untechable time/slide by changing the timing in a different location rather than trying to delay the 22B manually which is very difficult due to way buffering works. Try this in the corner as a practice/demostration- Throw > 22[D] > 5C > 2C > 214B > (2C) delayed to the last moment > 236A > 214B > 22 Whether you get the successful 22B will be determined by whether or not you timed the 2C properly and 236A > 214B > 22[b} can be inputted normally without any delay. I find it's much easier to find the timing for the proper height of that 2C hit than it is to work around the input buffering of 22B. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you can tell whether you did correctly by seeing the untechable time. The 2C timing after 214B can be applied on nearly every instance where there is a 5C > 2C > 214D/B which is very, very common. I've begun started implementing it in many of the BnBs which resulted in me being able to either dash up to my opponent before they can even start teching or free time to charge about (about 1.8 when held down right about 22 till the time they tech).
chzchan Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 Yeah, Errol made a note about that before, but you'd only be able to get a 3C out of it in the corner. 5CC > 623C > j.236A(dw) > 5C2C > 214B > 2C(delay) > 236A > 214B > 22 > 5D > 3C I'll try it out in a few other super prorated combos that will not allow for an air ender since the max untechable time is actually pretty long.
BatousaiJ Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 "This working is heavily dependent on how much you delay the j.236A when you whiff it. The concept is nice though." I didn't see anything about delaying the 2C in what we were talking about in twitter but the notations are the same. Either way, the damage isn't the important thing about this, it's a feasible way to consistently get increased untechable time which gives you much more flexibility in setting up your next offensive move or even forgoing that entirely to get a significant amount of charge. It's one of those intangible things you don't see in damage numbers but often means much more, like corner carry.
chzchan Posted April 26, 2015 Posted April 26, 2015 Oh, well the delaying thing is all you, but the first time I tried looking into near-ground 2C to get 22 to get max knockdown was after I saw that Errol posted. Sorry about that. I'd say I guess it isn't unstable anymore since you just need to delay the 2C correctly in order to get it to work. It is a great way to get a ground ender that doesn't let them tech in the air.
chzchan Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 236C IAD Fake Crossup Gimmick Oki Test Trying some more things out with 236C. This trick is heavily dependent on character height and actually doesn't work against Tsubaki. This is just a test for now, but damn gimmicks are fun this version. Still need to mess around with it on other characters, but it hella works against Ragna. I think it works midscreen as well, but is hard to time to get it to happen and may allow them to crouch under j.CC after they neutral tech. It's like I'm really playing Azrael. Oh whoops, I guess Ragna can use 2C or 2A spam to AA it. Welp, gimmicks are gimmicks. Probably should add that to the real video later on along with the fact that it does hit crouching if they just hold downback without hitting a button. Maybe put in a bit about the reverse knockback effect since it can happen on a regular hit as well and it puts the opponent at the perfect spacing to get command grabbed when you hit the ground. May as well move this here too. 236C Crossup Gimmick Oki Test Here's just a quick thing I was trying out. It is not complete as a trick yet, but it has potential since sj.C will hit crouching opponents. I plan on making a full video of it later along with the 1.25 charge ball corner oki I am currently working with. Passed it to Spinoza and he's going to try it out. It has huge flaws at the moment if you mistime it. Just like everything else, it only works on immediate neutral tech and loses to everything else. I think it catches forward rolls in blockstun but I'm not too sure yet. It can be easily AA'd, especially if the opponent has an AA that is a 2X input instead of 6X because of the crossup. It loses to the few DPs I have tested it on (Tsubaki's and Ragna's) but it actually makes Bullet's whiff since she doesn't move forward and it is slow. I should try it on Jin's and Mu's as well when I can. Best thing about it is that it beats out most immediate 5A mashing because of the spacing and movement of sj.C if you get 236C to hit the opponent at max height. It is beat out by delayed 5A on wakeup, but if they mash 5A immediately on wakeup, most 5As will whiff, even good AA 5As like Hakumen's. If you get the super jump correctly timed, it will beat a lot of stuff, but, again, I need to test it some more. Might try IAD j.B/C as well since the spacing looks nice and I think it may work better.
Zouf Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Just netplayed a bit.... She is tedious to play when there is lag (even a small one). As all her combos are now timing specific, she suffers a lot from having delays. Also, are we SURE 5A has leveled up? 5A 2C (air) doesn't even connect anymore, and 5A 2B doesn't combo. Either 2C is slower (lol) or 5A has actually decreased in level. j.CC > land > 5A > 2C doesn't work now, so you are good to go for j.CC > j.214A now, which sux alot. My brain isn't functionning fast enough :3 I'm still doing old CP combos such as 5A 5BB 5CC 6BB which doesn't work here. And 236B doesn't reach as far and as fast as before, i dropped a lot of ground combos trying to catch my opponent with it. 236A looks the way to go in most situations now, it reaches farther than before I believe. She's definitely the hardest Tsubaki we got since CS2 (included) at least. And she has so many options in combo it's kinda hard to choose the best one. I guess she is ok, even though her neutral still sux.
chzchan Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 The reason that 5A2C is no longer a thing is because there was a global reduction on air untech time for nearly every characters' normals. I too have trouble online because of these new combos, but I am adjusting accordingly and coming up with new dirty dirty tricks.
Daedron Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 She's definitely the hardest Tsubaki we got since CS2 (included) at least I disagree with this, her new combos are really easy. What exactly are you having trouble with? I think you just need to get used to confirming into 623C > j.236A(w) off of pretty much every hit now and if you're at a range where it won't connect, ground ender as usual. The hardest thing is probably doing 22 corner combos consistently, but you really don't have to use those and you can use the delayed 2C method to make it relatively consistent.
BatousaiJ Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Along with what Dae mentioned, her 5C > 2C > 236D > 6CC stuff is a bit tricky, along with the j.b j.cc route but overall, I would agree that this variation of Tsu's definitely not the toughest.
Daedron Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 Well yeah, there's some hard stuff here and there but...that was the case in CP as well, and CP1.0/1.1 had lots of char specific stuff to keep track off as well, which CP2.0 doesn't have. And honestly, CS2 DP Whiff combos weren't hard, just seems that way cause they were new, we're now many versions further and have done DP whiffs so much it's pretty much 2nd nature lol. Hardest is definitely 22 as you only have a 1 frame window to land it, though delay 2C definitely helps alleviate some of the pain regarding that.
chzchan Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 1.25 Charge Corner Oki Well, here it is. I hope that this helps out in some way because it has been working wonders for me. Still basic, but I am going places with the concept, especially since adding charges to Tsubaki's combos does not dramatically increase damage, so I feel more flexible with how I spend them. Non-followup 22 is just an amazing way to end a combo in the corner.
Zouf Posted April 28, 2015 Posted April 28, 2015 The reason that 5A2C is no longer a thing is because there was a global reduction on air untech time for nearly every characters' normals. I too have trouble online because of these new combos, but I am adjusting accordingly and coming up with new dirty dirty tricks. I haven't felt that at all. I mean, j.CC still gives ton of air untech time, as well as 2C/5B etc.. Combo timer has been reduced that's for sure, but i don't believe they tweaked untech times. Well, i checked the old CP database, and according to the numbers on the wiki, 5A > 2C wasn't even possible in CP 1.. Something's off there. @Daedron : They don't feel easy at all to me. That's probably just me then, i'll work some more to get used to them. My muscle memory hasn't ajusted just yet, so my brain and my arms aren't in synch :P
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