[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[chzchan]

Actually figured out why to use j.214A. If you end a combo such as a short AA combo, j.214A leaves you at decent spacing for 2A to pick people up that delay their tech in order to roll. If you end with j.214B, some characters are knocked actually farther away than j.214A which makes it so that you have to dash up in order to pick up delay tech since you now need to delay tech in order to roll after j.214X.

 

j.214A just stabilizes the pickup and encourages neutral tech more than j.214B. This only really matters if you don't go for a 5D or 2D after an air ender because you will not hit the opponent before they are allowed to roll if they delay tech if you opt to charge, you will only be able to catch forward rolls.

[Errol]

can you give a specific example?

[chzchan]

2CC > j.CC > j.214A

 

The opponent ends up right in your face and you can just immediately 2A and they will get picked up before they can roll regardless of what your air spacing was beforehand due to j.214A's properties. They have to neutral tech or they will get picked up by 2A. Also, the pickup route is fairly stable on most characters. You just go 2A5C2C > etc.

 

If you do 2CC > j.CC > j.214B, the opponent will end up farther away from you and the timing for the 2A pickup is actually tighter and the combo may need to be adjusted for certain characters because they are farther away. You may need to do 2A5B > sj.B > etc. instead.

 

j.214A without the charge cancel allows you to call rolls without the opponent even getting a change to roll and confirm into a nice combo extension if you had only done a short combo. j.214B leaves the opponent at varying spacing depending on your relative height to the opponent during the air combo and 2A sometimes doesn't reach and is inconsistent in pickup combos.

[Errol]

I'll fool around with that later.

[chzchan]

Another good example is off of a simple 5BB5CC confirm if you adjust the combo to be shorter.

 

5BB5CC > 623C > j.236A(dw) > 5C2CC > sj.C > dj.CC > j.214A only does 2.8k, but if you pickup with 2A into a blue combo, you tack on an extra 500 damage.

 

5BB5CC > 623C > j.236A(dw) > 5C2CC > sj.C > dj.CC > j.214A > 2A5C2CC > sj.C > dj.CC > j.214B deals 3.3k.

 

If you used j.214B first instead of j.214A, 2A will definitely whiff on most characters due to the distance and I think the combo timer expiring (?). I think it makes sense now why I see it used so much in all the match videos I have watched. I also tried it out and j.214A without charge cancelling gives you a large enough window to both dash and 2A and still pick the opponent up before they can roll. j.214B does not allow this.

 

Dashing in after ending with j.214A and hitting 2A twice will both meaty and catch opponents trying to delay their tech in order to roll. If you delay the first 2A, you will catch forward rolls reliably. The second 2A, if you time the first one to catch delayed tech, will meaty the opponent if they neutral tech instead of delaying. You can use the fact that the second 2A meaties to set up a basis of fear of the second 2A and go for a grab, command grab, etc. after the first 2A whiffs.

 

j.214A also leaves you are the exact maximum range of Tsubaki's command grab, so if you don't dash in before 2A, you can just whiff 2A after j.214A and then do command grab. You can also just do meaty command grab after j.214A and if the opponent neutral techs, they will get grabbed unless they jump or backdash on wakeup. I think that charge cancelling it sets up perfect timing for meaty command grab as well, but I am still testing.

 

This is some really powerful stuff and it is all because of j.214A's consistent midscreen knockdown spacing.

[Kiba]

 

Speaking of command grabs, what are some of you guy's favorite times to command grab? Two of mine are corner 5B > IAD j.B© > command grab and j.214A ender > 5D > command grab. 

 

• 5A > Command grab
• IAD j.C > command grab
• With my back to the corner: any short combo > 236C > 5D > Command grab
• 5C > Charge cancel > Command grab (only if I was directly in their face)
• Match start run up command grab (Needs serious conditioning)

@Chzchan: Good stuff mate.

[BatousaiJ]

I've always done j.214A standard every time so the differences isn't something I noticed.

 

It is true that you're in perfect distance for 5D > command grab the instant you land anywhere in the screen. 

[chzchan]

As long as they neutral tech. Doing the B or C version leaves them farther away if they delay tech in order to roll so you can't threaten them as hard. This is because there is a slightly bounce that only happens if they don't neutral tech within the emergency tech window.

 

The A version is the only one you can use consistently in order to properly threaten catching rolls and achieve a meaty at the same time which makes the command grab extra extra scary.

 

Don't use 5D, though as that will make it so that you can't blue beat combo them if you go for 2A and they want to roll. That is all part of the conditioning.

[BatousaiJ]

I use 5D to setup the timing perfectly for the command grab, I'd use something else if I were trying to catch a roll. 

[chzchan]

Oh but it isn't about actually catching the roll, it is about conditioning them not to roll by showing that if they delay their tech long enough to reach the end of the emergency tech window, they will get blue combo'd. You can't do that conditioning if you 5D after every air combo ender.

 

See, you can catch forward rolls if you do j.214A > 5D > 2A for example, and you'll go into a short combo. If they try to backwards roll, you will not get anything and backwards rolling is one of Tsubaki's banes. If you just do j.214A > 2A, regardless of what they were trying to do by delaying their tech, you will pick them up if they don't immediately neutral tech and still be able to meaty them on wakeup.

 

You can start using 5D to time things once they actually sit the fuck down unless your opponent doesn't know the matchup. The second 2A after a j.214A > 2A will hit people out of jump startup which discourages just upback barriering out of everything which is the first thing that people do to me after any knockdown.

[BatousaiJ]

It'd be pretty silly for anyone to opt for the exact same option every single time, especially if the opponent has shown a tendency of getting out of it.

 

I was talking about the times you would set up for command grabs as the 5D has the benefit of accelerated charge time along with setting up the exact timing when you can command grab on neutral tech(which is the most common option opponents take from my experience). 

 

I'm not particularly a big fan of the blue beat option since I like doing my full damage combos mid screen every time without assuming my opponent's going to let me pick them back up with 2A into a whole lot of nothing due to the proration. 

 

Why settle for extra damage in a "maybe" scenario when I can just have it as a certainty? The 2A for catching rolls is something I've been doing for a while, especially with how many of our max damage corner combos end with j.214A in which case they can just forward roll out of the corner with ease.

 

Then you just pick them up and cross over with 2A > 5C > 2C > 214B > etc etc to put them right back in the corner, where they belong. 

 

Like I said, know the options and use them appropriate for the situation and opponent's mindset at hand- there's no one good option for everything. 

[Errol]

because if you don't use that option, midscreen, then you have to deal with frequently resetting to neutral, or playing the guessing game on which way to go.

 

in this case, you've got a win-win situation, you either get a bunch more damage, or you get oki on them midscreen, instead of having to chase different options.

[BatousaiJ]

It's not like you're putting a stop to late tech rolls entirely with this option, it just delays it by punishing them with a tiny bit of extra damage and then you're back to playing the guessing game again. 

 

The scenario presented is one either where you do the full 100% guaranteed 3.1k damage, get some free unpunishable charge time and then settle for the inevitable guessing game or you can opt to do 2,8k and then hope that your opponent isn't going to go with the most commonly used option of neutral tech and if you get the blue beat you get an extra 200 damage. That's more or less it because you can't blue beat combo him again due to proration after the j.214B punish ender. If you don't catch them trying to roll, you just lost 200 damage and free charge time.

 

 

 

 

Like I said, know the options and use them appropriate for the situation and opponent's mindset at hand- there's no one good option for everything. 

[Errol]

last game, I played a character that had one good option for everything. They exist.

 

It's not inevitable that you're going to be stuck having to play the guessing game again. If you pick them up again, sure, you get extra damage, but the other thing you also get is extra carry.

 

You might carry them far enough that you don't have to deal with it.  Even if you do, you've gained a lot of screen space which stays regardless.

 

Options besides neutral tech are frequently used. at the top level of the game, it's very common for people to not emergency tech, simply due to it leaving you open to too much if you regularly tech the same way.

 

There's a really simple way to look at this

 

1. You lose 300 damage and some charge but get guaranteed oki even in midscreen (depends, but likely a win overall)

or

2. You gain some damage and extra carry (win)

 

if you properly represent this option then you're going to start being able to take advantage of them in other ways too.

[chzchan]

It's not like you're putting a stop to late tech rolls entirely with this option, it just delays it by punishing them with a tiny bit of extra damage and then you're back to playing the guessing game again. 

 

The scenario presented is one either where you do the full 100% guaranteed 3.1k damage, get some free unpunishable charge time and then settle for the inevitable guessing game or you can opt to do 2,8k and then hope that your opponent isn't going to go with the most commonly used option of neutral tech and if you get the blue beat you get an extra 200 damage. That's more or less it because you can't blue beat combo him again due to proration after the j.214B punish ender. If you don't catch them trying to roll, you just lost 200 damage and free charge time.

 

The thing is that you are in fact hoping that they will go for neutral tech, or at least I am. I want to be able to mix my opponent up with confidence that they will actually stay there for a split second instead of just getting the hell out of Tsubaki's awful pressure. This is just in my eyes, but I don't really care that much about the extra damage you get from the blue pickup (though the extra carry is nice), all I want is to keep the opponent psychologically from exercising their defensive options. I would gladly sacrifice a bit of guaranteed damage for that mental advantage and a chance at getting a tiny bit more damage added to my combo. Like I love command grabbing people with 5D's perfect timing, but people learn quickly and just roll, jump, or backdash out of it since they know that the timing is perfect as well.

 

The 5D into 2A roll catch works fine, but you don't get the added bonus of being able to meaty and catch jump-outs on wakeup, so you are only discouraging one of their defensive options instead of two. Hell, I still don't know what to use to counter backdashing. I'm still working on things because nobody neutral techs against Tsubaki if they know the matchup unless they have a godly backdash (I hate Azrael and Celica) or are confident that you won't bait their DP.

[BatousaiJ]

Not really relevant to be talking about how another character has an option good for everything when we're specifically talking about Tsubaki.

 

Anyhow, I feel you're beating on a dead horse at this point as I've stated before that it's a preference of mine to assume for neutral tech over trying to punish late tech/rolls off j.214A unless my opponent has been prudent in showing that he has a tendency to do so. I would obviously shift my strategy to a different option.

 

Also, speaking of misrepresenting scenarios, you make it sound like you give up the initiative entirely in the scenario where you full mid combo 5D ender in the case of neutral tech since you have plenty of time to 2A or 5B meaty for initiative after 5D free charge. So the first scenario presented becomes a flat 300 damage loss and that's it which equals a loss and not a win.

 

Still, even with the possible damage loss,it's definitely useful in punishing tendencies when they have been established- if nothing else than to force them to start neutral teching instead. 

 

 

 

Like I said, know the options and use them appropriate for the situation and opponent's mindset at hand- there's no one good option for everything. 

[chzchan]

Ah I'm sorry about not noticing that. I'm really being edged on to the idea because of fighting people I have been fighting with everyday for years.

 

Not like I always go for this though, but if I see someone not neutral tech the first time, on my next knockdown I do go for no charge 2A. That kind of thing.

[Zouf]

How do you confirm that you caught rolls/delay tech with 2A? I tried with a 5C OS but it doesn't work so well. And since 2A > 5A > 2C doesn't work anymore, i'm kinda lost to how we're supposed to confirm this.

[chzchan]

2A5B > sj.B

or

2A5A5B > sj.B

for rolls

For delay tech pickup, you just go straight into 5C from 2A because it is easier on the mind.

Much harder than before but ya gotta work with it.

[Airk]

I think part of the confusion in this argument is that we're using the wrong terms again.

 

chzchn - your j.214A tactic doesn't stop "delayed techs" it stops people who don't emergency tech.   Here's what it sounds like is happening:

 

j.214A knocks the opponent down.  The opponent has the option to mash buttons to emergency tech.

--- If they do, they do the equivalent of an immediate neutral tech.

------ This is the situation where doing 5D > Command Grab will grab them.

------ In this case, doing the j.214A > 2A route will whiff the 2A on their emergency tech, but you will recover in time to do a normal meaty(Maybe? What happens if they emergency tech and you do j.214A > 2A > Command Grab? Do you get an auto-meaty?)

--- If they DON'T, then they stay on the ground and receive normal tech options.

------ This  disrupts the timing for 5D > Command Grab and allows them to back roll out of pressure.

------ The j.214A > 2A tactic will pick them up here for a blue combo.  Depending on your original combo, this can lead to significant damage and/or corner carry

 

 

I'm not sure if that was clear or not, but it sounded like BJ wasn't entirely clear on what was going on.

[BatousaiJ]

Le sigh.

 

I just called it "neutral tech" for simplicity sake since it has the same effect, I know exactly what's going on. 

 

Besides, I always go straight to the lab to test stuff out that are posted before commenting on it if I hadn't messed around with it too much previously so I've seen and tested all the scenarios. 

[Airk]

Sorry I offended you by trying to clarify?  It wasn't JUST your choice of terms that made it sound like you weren't clear.

[BatousaiJ]

Not offended- just tired of going over this particular topic over and over again.

 

Hence the "Le sigh". 

[Airk]

Just go test it and tell us all to STFU. ;P

[Errol]

I thought you were confused too because you were talking about it like getting the damage was the point of the option. the point was restricting the opponent's options.