[CPEX] Tsubaki Yayoi Changes and Discussion

[chzchan]

 

Unrelated, but I find it really annoying doing IAD JC (counter) > 5C>2C>214B and having it whiff. I'm really not a fan of JBJCC combos. I guess this calls for 5C>2C>delay 623C... I don't really like that either though.

 

 

I am finding , by the way, aiming for blue beat combos where I know I can get a good ender off them, to be very helpful. You naturally end up using a mix of just normal enders and these, so the result turns out pretty good.  A mix of good extra damage/carry, and neutral techs which you can have fun with.

 

In the case of knowing 214B will whiff which is reliant on how wide character air hurtboxes are, I'd just go for the shorter combo as well by doing 2CC and then try to do the pickup off 2A like you said. It just works, and if I don't get the blue combo they neutral tech instead of rolling which is great.

 

You can do 5C > 623C if you try your hardest or even just do 623C as you land which is sort of really hard.

[Errol]

tbh it's too much of a risk to do raw 623C in the situation. I guess the other would be delay 2CC and then 214B. but that's probably just the same as doing delay 623C.

 

Annoying because it'd also be a wonderful place to do 5C>2C>214D>CT... but that's even more whiff prone than 214B.

[chzchan]

Oh yeah 214D moves her hella far forward. My favorite 5CC starter midscreen combo goes into 214D > jccCT after the 5C2C catch, but that doesn't work on so many characters.

[chzchan]

22[D] Corner Oki Test

 

I have been messing around with making the most out of shitty confirms in the corner. Not a finished product, but catching rolls is super easy. You are guaranteed 1 charge back out of the combo and you'll still be able to meaty with 2A/5A. There are some visual cues using the install gauge you can use to time low, overhead, jab, grab, command grab, and whiffed 2B into grab/command grab meaties.

[Errol]

looks like itd blue beat and let them out free

[chzchan]

Yes if they delay. Delay tech blows everything up because the risk of a blue beat is nonexistent if they do a slight delay and immediately do something else because the combo timer is about to expire. If they delay for just long enough, you will be able to pick them up into a full combo for the same reason. I think the timing was getting 1.05-1.25 charges after 22 > 5D then 2B will OTG into a new combo because the timer is just done at that point. If you get exactly 1 charge after 22 > 5D, 2B will meaty and catch rolls if they immediately tech or roll at the earliest window.

 

Again, just messing around. I'd say that this is definitely just another gimmick. It works really well if they neutral tech or even delay neutral tech. If you do 236A > 214B > 22[D] out of a normal starter like 5BB5CC instead of doing the DP whiff route, you can actually get a safejump setup that catches rolls by neutral jumping into j.C at 0.75 charges after 22 > 5D though it does cost you the damage of the combo. Might be worth doing out of a 2B starter since your damage is already sacrificed from the start.

[Errol]

it looks to me like the timing that is used to pick up into a combo, would allow a roll, and the timing used to beat rolls, would bluebeat and let them out for free.  the usual ground ender has the advantage of giving you some space so you have extra time to catch rolls. 

[chzchan]

Yes that is what I pointed out. The time between meatying + catching rolls and picking up the opponent with 2B into a new combo if they delay is essentially a frame or two.

I don't think there is a way to catch rolls while still being able to OTG into a non-blue beat.

You still have to call the opponent on their decision, but their options are much more limited and you are right in their face. You also get back all the resources you spent if you go for 2B. You can go for other mixups like 6A or command grab if you are confident that the opponent will neutral tech without trying to reversal out.

[CrescentSaber]

Ok guys question. How is Tsubaki's new TK j.214D overhead in pressure? Is it a relatively good option to go for if you have the charge on hand? I haven't really played around with it much nor tried it in actual matches because I'm not sure exactly how much pay off you get from it. Can you get decent damage from it? Also how unsafe is it if blocked?

[chzchan]

That was only in location tests unfortunately. If they kept that I would be so happy, especially because j.214D can be followed up midscreen with 2A/623C.

 

At most, you can use it to bait and immediately punish people thinking that you will grab them and reacting before you do or people trying to grab on wakeup. Works nicely against Tager/Bullet if they actually try to reversal grab super you on their wakeup.

[Airk]

Hah, yeah. j.214D overhead would be so nice, but no, they have shattered our dreams once again.

[CrescentSaber]

Crap. For once I thought we got something nice.

[chzchan]

Hey we got a ton of nice shit in this version, but it will forever be a struggle from more fundamental problems.

[Zouf]

Hey we got a ton of nice shit in this version

Still looking for them

 

We've got some huge improvement in our combos (minus the fact that 5A > 2C doesnt link, 6C is a pain to land, 22D doesn't wallbounce anymore and Astral combos are a bitch now), but as far as mixup/neutral/oki is concerned, we're the same if not worst.

 

I like the change in our 2C though. It's fun to see the opponents whiffing completely, landing and asking themselves "wtf just happened here?"

[Airk]

Yeah, sorry, I'm with Zouf; Our combos are better (though seemingly at the cost of them being a character specific mess) 2C change is great, and that's it.   Everything else is the same.

 

Edit: Okay, the buffs to the command grab are pretty nice too.

[BatousaiJ]

Astral setups are easy and combos are no more character specific than they were before- in fact, I would say they are slightly less so in this iteration. 

 

236C is a fantastic tool as is 2C, we also supposedly have more + on block moves with 22D/236D.- 214D jcCT is devastating combo utility and there's still more stuff to list.

 

Less time bitching about what she lacks and more time thinking about how to use the tools she does have properly.

[Errol]

they're not just slightly less so, they're much much less character specific in this game. 

 

they improved a ton of stuff.  some unfortunate changes too but that's how it goes. 

[chzchan]

Still have dreams of what it'd be like if 214D was jump cancellable on block. Almost perfect spacing for IAD j.B cross up. But oh well, that was a while ago when that was even part of speculation haha.

I think I'm pretty comfortable with what she lost in this version for what she gained. I'm having a hell of a lot more fun at least.

[Airk]

they're not just slightly less so, they're much much less character specific in this game. 

 

Then why is it generating so much conversation about how many different things don't work and when? I don't remember this from previous versions.  

[Errol]

seriously, there are tons of universal routes that work great in this version. taking some strange route that was found and seeing it doesn't work on all characters (read, 623C:J236A:j214A:6C), is not at all comparable to the mess in CP where the CORE combo routes were character specific in addition to all of the cool things people found ALSO being character specific.

 

literally like 8/10 of the combos in challenge mode from CP1.0 were actually character specific combos that would drop on some characters or require different timing on other characters.

 

The basic oki combo you would like to do in CP would have been something like 5BB5CC>BBB>5D>5C>2C>j236A, but 5c doesn't work on all characters.  you can go into it off of 623C>J214A(whiff)>5A/5C>2C>BBB>5D>5C, but dp whiffs in CP1 were SUPER character specific too. 

 

Or you could look at the CT routes in CP1, which all really wanted you to use 5C after CT, which works on half the cast and not the other. then you go into 2CC>236C, which works on part of the cast and doesn't work on others without very weird delays.  Then when you hit the 236C, on some characters you could 5C, on others you could 5a, on others 5a didn't work well but 2a worked well, on others 2a didn't work but 2a did work....

 

CP1 character specific stuff was garbage. There are simple, solid routes you can do for damage on every character in CP2, if you don't get into weird stuff, or the difficult JBJCC stuff.

 

I could make a huge fucking chart with all the terrible character specific stuff in CP1. It was a large part of why I stopped playing tsubaki except to fuck around in CP1.

[Airk]

Word: Taken. 

 

This makes me more hopeful.

[Zouf]

It's not character specific stuff, but timing-spacing-based stuff, which is much more annoying to me at least :P

 

Especially online.

 

Getting BnBs down at least. But it feels like our drive really has become useless. I'm not using my install charges in combos anymore, except in very specific occasions. Maybe i'm doing it wrong.

 

Also about the 5A > 2C link issue, i'm now (trying) using 5A > 5C > 2C, works OK in most cases.

[chzchan]

I actually use D moves way more in neutral and not for the sake of damage in combos than before. I felt that in 1.1, I needed to save charges for damage since you really really needed them to do any, but now I'm using them a lot more freely because she actually deals damage without them. Though charges do see some vital use in air conversions and AA combos in the form of j.214D > ground pickup, I don't really use charges for the sake of damage in combos that much unless I have access to 214D > CT in a combo. I'd rather use them for easy access to gimmick oki, or more corner carry. Don't forget about the charge acceleration.

 

I absolutely love using the new 421D ball for everything. Using it in neutral sometimes allows you to get 1 or more charges back due to acceleration depending on the matchup and what the opposing player decides to do. Using it after a corner knockdown has proven super successful for me as well. It is a great shield and really fun for covering approaches.

 

623D is still kind of not that great, but you can DP through bursts with it using the extra invuln. Still combo fodder, but now that you can do 623D > j.214A(w) > 2C midscreen with consistency in this version, I'd say that it is better combo fodder now than it was.

 

236D being plus on block makes it a fairly safe way to close distance if you are too far away to continue pressure out of the max range of a normal, but it still kind of sucks because of pushback and only being +2 on block. If the opponent doesn't barrier, it sets up the perfect distance for IAD crossup mixup if you 5B right after the opponent blocks 236D. Still, it is just so easy to get mashed out of stuff.

 

214D no longer tracks, but it has buffed invuln so it has some use outside of combos. Love it now because of the amazing route that it opened up for Tsubaki to deal damage.

 

22D is plus on block without needing to be charged which has utility and the fact that it can be fully charged after 6CC is amazing for midscreen punishes. Still experimenting with it though.

 

j.236D is fun for breaking the opponent's combos when thrown out in neutral, but not nearly as fun as 421D. Lost sideswitch routes out of DP that it had back in 1.1. Still looking for things to do with it outside of combos aside from gimmick pressure out of air to ground j.CC.

 

Man I mentioned it already but j.214D is beyond godlike. Being able to get damage and amazing corner carry off of any random air hit or stray ground to air hit into short juggle combo for just 1 charge is the best thing ever. 

[Airk]

I absolutely love using the new 421D ball for everything. Using it in neutral sometimes allows you to get 1 or more charges back due to acceleration depending on the matchup and what the opposing player decides to do. Using it after a corner knockdown has proven super successful for me as well. It is a great shield and really fun for covering approaches.

 

623D is still kind of not that great, but you can DP through bursts with it using the extra invuln. Still combo fodder, but now that you can do 623D > j.214A(w) > 2C midscreen with consistency in this version, I'd say that it is better combo fodder now than it was.

 

236D being plus on block makes it a fairly safe way to close distance if you are too far away to continue pressure out of the max range of a normal, but it still kind of sucks because of pushback and only being +2 on block. If the opponent doesn't barrier, it sets up the perfect distance for IAD crossup mixup if you 5B right after the opponent blocks 236D. Still, it is just so easy to get mashed out of stuff.

 

214D no longer tracks, but it has buffed invuln so it has some use outside of combos. Love it now because of the amazing route that it opened up for Tsubaki to deal damage.

 

22D is plus on block without needing to be charged which has utility and the fact that it can be fully charged after 6CC is amazing for midscreen punishes. Still experimenting with it though.

 

Man I mentioned it already but j.214D is beyond godlike. Being able to get damage and amazing corner carry off of any random air hit or stray ground to air hit into short juggle combo for just 1 charge is the best thing ever. 

 

214D sounds like garbage now, honestly, except for the "yay, combo part" nonsense.  22D plus on block is really nice, but oddly I never see anyone use it.

 

j.214D has been able to do this forever, man.

[chzchan]

j.214D has only been able to do that when near the corner because of the slide since you could pick the opponent up with 2B/6B/6C when they were in one place. You could end with 3CC, but that was it; your combo would be over if you were anywhere on the screen besides near the corner. If you ever got a random 5B > sj.BCC on an airborne opponent or just a random air hit j.CC, you could not get any more damage out of it unless you had at least 2 charges or 50% and spending 50% was definitely not worth it in the last version because of Tsubaki's awful damage. If I get an AA in with my back to the corner, I can carry all the way to the other corner using the current j.214D and get good damage out of it. If I get a random air confirm midscreen, I can j.214D and get the equivalent of a regular grounded combo or more and go all the way to the corner. It is way better now in my eyes.

 

I use 22D a lot instead of 236D because normals into 236D only become frame traps based on distance and 236D counterhits are very very difficult to follow up for me, especially on the larger characters that you need to do 5B2C on instead of 5C2C and Makoto. 22D counterhits are just as easy to follow up as they were in the old game. The only difference between the two in pressure is that the spacing that each leaves you at is based on how many normals you used in pressure. 236D's end spacing after the opponent blocks it is constant regardless of how far away you were before using it, but 22D may push you back if you use it too far away. If I'd want to stay in, I would probably use a jab and another normal before using it or maybe even just a jab because 5A/2A > 22D has a 3 frame gap due to 5A/2A having buffed attack levels with 11 frames of blockstun instead of 9. Another thing about spacing is that 22D will leave you at a range where IAD will not cross up. I like doing a 22D that pushes me way the hell away and either firing a projectile, backing off to charge, or IADing back in from the distance that it puts me at.