[CPEX] Kagura Mutsuki Gameplay Discussion

[-Seo]

Added.

 

I noticed in a video a little while back that a Kagura uses 5DC, but only the first hit connects and the second whiffs, but he can now still go into another stance afterwards. A small buff, but a nice one, something that went overlooked for a while.

[Angry Guy of DE]

Now that you mention it Seo...Kagura is able to barrier while in stance now right?

5DC might be more useful now as a poke since it got better in 1.1 with range and so long as it is almost an airtight string into 2DB Kagura could control a good amount of the air by approaching and having barrier out while air-stancing into moves.

That alone might make some match-ups with zoners a little better by barrier blocking a hit and then getting closer with 6DC or 2DB.  

Come to think of it I wonder what the frame data is on just canceling the first hit of 5DC into other moves are...is it massively minus or is it a potential frame trap option?

[Maadhum]

http://youtu.be/rmIYKCx4CdM?t=16s

 

[2]8B on counterhit can be followed up by 5C in the corner for an easy 3.3k damage. Pretty good buff considering we didn't get very much off anti-airs in 1.1. 

 

 

It should also work when doing 2DC as well. Correct me if im wrong on that :/

 

I have yet to see [2]8C done after 2DC so im guessing the added height they get from 6DC is necessary. I saw Nise Pachi try 2DC 5DA 6DC [2]8C while near the corner and it kept crossing him up causing [2]8C to whiff.

[BFM]

http://youtu.be/1e98sEB951M?t=1h48m32s

 

Does 6DA have some kind of invulnerability now ?

[-Seo]

http://youtu.be/1e98sEB951M?t=1h48m32s

 

Does 6DA have some kind of invulnerability now ?

 

It always has, but the invuln on it is super weird, kinda happens when he goes to do the attack just after the dash. It might've been stealth buffed though? I imagine it loses to lows.

 

Looking at that video too, in the Tager match afterwards, it seems 5DC recovers faster too. He has no problems at all doing CH5DC>6C.

[BFM]

I honestly never noticed it, I presume that it could be valuable to beat mashing on 6DB but this was probably super lucky and it will be unusable for some reason.

And about 5DC, it really looks to be easier to follow on counter hit, not that it happens often to me but still a good thing.

[Skye]

I've seen [2]8c after 2dc, Kagura couldn't do anything after, the added height on the 6dc makes a big difference.

[-Seo]

http://youtu.be/u_wteADtFRg?t=4m42s

 

It's possible, but distance from the corner seems to play a big part.

[FatalCounter]

Am I the only person who believe 5DC has some head invicible frames right before the first hit. It is reAAally hard to hit Kagura head before the first hit of 5DC. 

Yep, my 6DB once crossed Relius 214A which is the Ignis wheel, I was like eh!?!? It believe it is body invincible at the beginning of the dash while 6DB is almost fully invincible when Kagura turns around. 

If 5DC got buffed I will be so happy, so that I will harass some people with it. 

 

It seems like they reduced some recovery on some Kagura drives. 

[Angry Guy of DE]

I don't think it has any head invul. frames in 1.1 at least.  What it does have is a generous hitbox when it's out as well as probably lowering Kagura's own hurtbox while he's swinging.

Hitboxes are funny with some of his moves, like his 5B actually has his upper-body hurtbox go back slightly during the animation (since he in fact does lean back a little when he does the kick).  Spaced correctly you can dodge the launching hit of Koko's fireball super and still CH her with your 5B.

Of course Kagura also is somewhat low to the ground during some of his stance poses and even in his neutral animation so who knows.  I would rather have 5DC have faster start-up than head invul. since the respect it forces once he starts swinging can catch people that don't know the range of the second hit of it. 

[-Seo]

No, I'm pretty sure 5DC has head invuln from frame 1, the problem being you have to go into stance to do it, so it requires some prediction. If people are IAD'ing over your B orb, it's a great tool to make them second guess doing it again.

[Angry Guy of DE]

The wiki doesn't mention it so I just went with that, if it did get head invul in either 1.1 or 2.0 then that's a bonus.

Though like you said it does require some prediction to use effectively against people, which is why it often goes to the wayside when I opted to do [4]6 A or B orb and then 6C to catch attempted airdashes over it.  The other problem it had was that on non-CH you normally don't get a combo off of it and even on CH the pick-up can be dicey depending on where you are in relation the wall that they bounce off of.

[-Seo]

It's had head invuln since 1.0 I believe. On non CH you can't really get anything from it but [2]8C or 5DC>rc>6C>stuff, but depending on height, it's tricky to hit. Height also plays into how difficult it is to hit 6DA followup on 5DC CH. If you do it while they're grounded I think it's impossible to land 6DA, but you can hit 6DB. The general timing is to do 6DA when they just hit the wall, and 6DB just a little before they hit the wall.

[FatalCounter]

5DC had that property since BBCP 1.0 and we didn't mention (Me in particular) because we are not for how long it lasts. Instead of mentionning some random frames, we didn't. But It has that head invincibility.only before the first hit, so i would be Head inv from 1F-17F at least since 5DC starts in 17F after the Stance Cancel. However this number can't be trusted. 

 

Another thing is when Kagura get CH when performing this move, he is considered airbone most of the time and your oppenent will get an air CH instead of a ground one! Silly!

[-Seo]

Yeah there's a small gap between the first and second hit where Kagura has both feet off the ground, so the game does actually consider him airborne.

[FatalCounter]

I don't know, is it just me or Kagura's 2B and 3C have faster startup now. Especially 2B. That move can't have 12F startup in BBCP2, just impossible, It is as fast as Ragna 2B. I beg it is 9 or 10F in that version. 

 

Edit: Now, I am sure!! 2B got buffed maybe even his 6B startup. That string is so fast compared to the 1.1 version. I tried it at home, watching the video on Gamechariot Youtube's Channel and it is faster now.  

[Skye]

That's cool. I was wondering how those 5b 2b strings kept opening people up now all of a sudden.

[-Seo]

Bringing us back to 6DA

 

http://youtu.be/MbbJ31KDGOk?t=13m57s

 

At the end of the 3rd round, 6DA goes straight through Platinum's Bat. That's some pretty beefed up invuln. I think 6DA has reduced recovery too, I've seen 6DA>6B hit now.

[Angry Guy of DE]

What the hell did they do to 6DA?  That invul looks nutty when its beating out Plat's bat,  like 6DB's invul during the teleport behind is understandable but that looks weird.

NOT COMPLAINING.

Though now that you mention it, 3C does seem faster.  We Hakumen now with 8 Frame 3C?  If more things can be punished with 3C for CH then that's more 6C's and 6DA's into combos for us.

I guess we have more rushdown to make up for the weakened oki from the past.

[chzchan]

Actually, can't the new speed of 3C be figured out by taking into account the new combo route with Etc. > 2D~A > 5D~A > 6D~A > 3C? How fast would it need to be for that to work right now? Or do you think that changes to the stance moves may be affecting it rather than 3C? 3C does look really damn fast, though.

[FatalCounter]

Though now that you mention it, 3C does seem faster.  We Hakumen now with 8 Frame 3C?  If more things can be punished with 3C for CH then that's more 6C's and 6DA's into combos for us.

I guess we have more rushdown to make up for the weakened oki from the past.

You finally got it. with his runspeed, you have to go for more rushdown and less Fireball oki. His command grab kind of have a better range so most of close or mid range 6DC, 6DB? 2DB, 6DA? (but I seriously doubt it) can force someone to tech his command grab and that is a free get away. 

[FatalCounter]

Actually, can't the new speed of 3C be figured out by taking into account the new combo route with Etc. > 2D~A > 5D~A > 6D~A > 3C? How fast would it need to be for that to work right now? Or do you think that changes to the stance moves may be affecting it rather than 3C? 3C does look really damn fast, though.

Do you never watched Kagura combo video or Matches? All you are saying, just works perfectly in the corner ONLY. Even ..... > 5C> 6DC> 5DA> 66> 3C> 6DC> 2DB. Another one when proration is too high for 2DA; After 28C> 2C> 5DA> 6DA> 3C>.... works. They are many routes possible, It all depends on your starter. 

 

One more thing; Using Crush Trigger early on your combois better and adds a lot of damage. Like this. 5BB> 3C> 6DC> 2DA> 5DA> CT > 5C> 6DC> 28C> 2C> 6DC> 2DB. That is a lot of damage. 

[-Seo]

Added an unconfirmed changes section to the OP. Wish these kind of buffs were told to us originally, these are the much more useful things to know

[NecroTheReaper]

Im curious if the corner combo change to [2]8C made a difference on bad starters like A moves or grabs. Also, is his command grab special cancellable now? Saw someone follow up a 5DB with [2]8C midscreen (only hit once).

[chzchan]

Do you never watched Kagura combo video or Matches? All you are saying, just works perfectly in the corner ONLY. Even ..... > 5C> 6DC> 5DA> 66> 3C> 6DC> 2DB. Another one when proration is too high for 2DA; After 28C> 2C> 5DA> 6DA> 3C>.... works. They are many routes possible, It all depends on your starter. 

 

One more thing; Using Crush Trigger early on your combois better and adds a lot of damage. Like this. 5BB> 3C> 6DC> 2DA> 5DA> CT > 5C> 6DC> 28C> 2C> 6DC> 2DB. That is a lot of damage. 

 

Ah, sorry about that. Wait so these work because of the height the opponent is left off of the ground after 6D~A as well as the starter, right? I've only been doing really shallow tests of stuff offline right now, so I am bound to be thinking about things incorrectly like I have been for a while.

 

How much faster does 2.0 3C look faster to you as someone who is probably able to notice the subtleties? That's what I want to try and confirm since you gave some numbers earlier, though those were only about 2B. I'm not exactly sure how it can be tested.