[CPE] µ12 General Discussion

[StylisH]

Her steins not going full screen is my biggest complaint. Maybe I'm overestimating the nerfs on some of these things, but she looks kinda bad to me now. Not only was the range of the steins shortened, the charge up time has been increased and totsuka blade is now slower. No steins off ikutachi sucks imo, as well as the weird 6b. If someone can explain to me how these changes make her safer or better then maybe I'll change my mind, but I'm pretty skeptical as of now.

 

I'll take better close range fighting over full screen zoning any day, especially considering close range was where she suffered the most in previous versions.  Besides, there are many things she does well (mixup, oki, footsies, etc) that full screen lasers was a bit much.  Mu IMO was meant to be a trap/balanced attack character, not purely zoning.  If you want pure (for ArcSys anyway) zoning, there's always Nu/Lambda.

[bakahyl]

Fullscreen stein sets was viable pressure, since there are characters who have a hard time dealing with it because Mu was better at footsies than those certain characters. But then again, locking the opponent down with wellplaced steins was stupid though

 

IMO her biggest nerf to me is probably having less stable damage, due to

-j.2c change, which is replaced by 2c however her air to air combos will be bad. Unless from a CH j.2c

-ikutachi not being her main midscreen combo because of the changes in range and unable to stein cancel it (so you will be swapping sides)

-5c>6c no longer working on air hits unless CH

 

Plus her corner carry got probably worse as well with the above mentioned changes.

 

edit:

 

 

I'll take better close range fighting over full screen zoning any day, especially considering close range was where she suffered the most in previous versions.  Besides, there are many things she does well (mixup, oki, footsies, etc) that full screen lasers was a bit much.  Mu IMO was meant to be a trap/balanced attack character, not purely zoning.  If you want pure (for ArcSys anyway) zoning, there's always Nu/Lambda.

 

IMO her close range stayed the same, because none of her close range normals that much got better. She will still struggle at footsies at close range against characters like Bang, Ragna or Jin.

Her mixups might be better because of her 6b change (although i think that her gattling to 6b are changed because i haven't seen anyone try 5b or 6a >6b yet) and we still have the unexplored new stein cancels , but that doesn't make Mu that much of a stronger close range character

[Lelouch84]

I don't think full screen steins makes her a pure zoning character. I think she was a great hybrid as she is now. IMO her ability at any range is fairly solid, and making the steins shorter range defeats the purpose of having them at all. Now she seems half-baked in both close range and zoning. Maybe her close range has improved, but her long range at the very least is half-baked. If they went this far they should have gotten rid of it all together because doing this limits her setplay options significantly. The reason I ended up choosing her over Nu is because of her ability to do both setplay and up-close fighting. Now they're pushing her close game and I just can't wrap my head around why they would do so.

 

Also, watching h.h play against a litchi he is losing the majority of the time. It looks like her options are more limited now and in a lot of the games h.h is doing all he can to defend himself. Mu absolutely needs the ability to control the neutral space with her projectiles in order to force the opponent to approach in a way that is advantageous to her.

[StylisH]

I don't think full screen steins makes her a pure zoning character. I think she was a great hybrid as she is now. IMO her ability at any range is fairly solid, and making the steins shorter range defeats the purpose of having them at all. Now she seems half-baked in both close range and zoning. Maybe her close range has improved, but her long range at the very least is half-baked. If they went this far they should have gotten rid of it all together because doing this limits her setplay options significantly. The reason I ended up choosing her over Nu is because of her ability to do both setplay and up-close fighting. Now they're pushing her close game and I just can't wrap my head around why they would do so.

 

Having mid screen steins means you have to put a bit more effort to win.  It means you can't just get in for free with 236D full screen anymore, which is a good thing.  Litchi was the same way, throw the staff and do whatever you want, even if you got hit.  Why not?  It's coming back right? 

 

To me they're promoting smarter stein usage.

[Lelouch84]

That's just some elitist bull shit right there. 

[bakahyl]

Having mid screen steins means you have to put a bit more effort to win.  It means you can't just get in for free with 236D full screen anymore, which is a good thing.  Litchi was the same way, throw the staff and do whatever you want, even if you got hit.  Why not?  It's coming back right? 

 

To me they're promoting smarter stein usage.

 

236d was not much of a free get-in ticket since cp compared to cse because of the increased recovery even if you TK it

Also combined with he faster CP totsuka lasers, you couldn't get to mixup your opponent much during it

[Errol]

Does anyone really think that the laser fortress in CP1/1.1 is good design? That is some of the lamest, most braindead shit in this game, when it works. I don't know if it was necessary to make normal steins shorter range though.  (ed: 5d Jd j2d>iad jd j2d Loop bullshit is what I'm taking about)

 

I think the change of j.D being movement cancelable to being attack cancelable probably fixed that by itself, without having to shorten range? but it seems like they probably increased steins at short and mid range by making them attack cancelable instead of movement cancelable. I think she's always had a bit more of a close range focus than other zoners. they kinda showed that they don't consider her to be a "zoner" in 1.1 with the backdash change (all hard 'zoners' got 25 frame backdashes, her's got bumped to 22 frames like a rushdown char.., kinda minor point but just saying).

 

new 6b is definitely not easy to block. Her mixup seems more dangerous to me. 6b probably takes more skill to implement but it doesn't seem bad...

[bakahyl]

Does anyone really think that the laser fortress in CP1/1.1 is good design? That is some of the lamest, most braindead shit in this game, when it works. I don't know if it was necessary to make normal steins shorter range though.  (ed: 5d Jd j2d>iad jd j2d Loop bullshit is what I'm taking about)

 

I think the change of j.D being movement cancelable to being attack cancelable probably fixed that by itself, without having to shorten range? but it seems like they probably increased steins at short and mid range by making them attack cancelable instead of movement cancelable. I think she's always had a bit more of a close range focus than other zoners. they kinda showed that they don't consider her to be a "zoner" in 1.1 with the backdash change (all hard 'zoners' got 25 frame backdashes, her's got bumped to 22 frames like a rushdown char.., kinda minor point but just saying).

 

new 6b is definitely not easy to block. Her mixup seems more dangerous to me. 6b probably takes more skill to implement but it doesn't seem bad...

 

Blame Arc system works for thinking that buffing the hit and blockstun on her regular lasers in CP 1.0 (likely to make it a part of her combos) a good idea, but because of that they likely nerfed her old zoning tools (habaya, totsuka and habakiri were all nerfed badly compared to CSE) to make up for it. This time they left her with a weaker Totsuka, Habaya and habakiri compared to CSE and weaker d lasers compared to CP 1.0 and 1.1

 

I already said once on this forum that i think that they probably intended to make Mu more a regular rushdown character after each iteration by nerfing her zoning tools every time and that looks quite true in 2.0

 

As for the backdash, i really haven't seen any noticable difference compared to Nu's backdash in 1.1.

[Errol]

well, of course I blame arc.  I blame arc every time they make some really dumb decisions (see cp2 nu). But wasn't the real thing in CP1 making the lasers fire faster? Maybe not, I dunno. I like the idea of more hitstun on steins... I know I'm annoyed every time a combo drops on me because pumpkin hit the opponent and shortened their untech time. 

[Lelouch84]

Unfortunately now the game has no true hybrid fighter and that saddens me.

[bakahyl]

well, of course I blame arc.  I blame arc every time they make some really dumb decisions (see cp2 nu). But wasn't the real thing in CP1 making the lasers fire faster? Maybe not, I dunno. I like the idea of more hitstun on steins... I know I'm annoyed every time a combo drops on me because pumpkin hit the opponent and shortened their untech time. 

 

The only lasers that are noticably faster in cp are her totsuka and yata no kagami imo. I think the primary reason for her 1.0 and 1.1 laser fortresses being stupid was the increased hitstun (juggling you into other other set stein lasers on air hit) and more blockstun to lock the opponent down since the uncharged lasers had almost no blockstun in CSE

[Errol]

It's a very very large stretch to say that this game has no hybrid fighter. Almost Every zoner has strong close range tools in this game.

 

Gotcha bakahyl. 

[bakahyl]

Every zoner has strong close range tools in this game.

 

Amane's close range tools look quite bad and i think that he is pretty much a zoner XD

[Errol]

he is a zoner. but I don't think his close range tools are that bad since his 2a and 5a got buffed in 1.1. Rachel has bad normals but other tools that can be used at close range are wicked so it's ok. 

[Lelouch84]

Sure every zoner has options but that doesn't make them a true hybrid fighter. Obviously you can't leave zoning characters completely vulnerable at close range.

[Errol]

The heck is a "hybrid fighter" then? I'm beginning to think this distinction has no true meaning.

[TD]

uh yeah every zoner in this game is a hybrid... each and every zoner in this game can technically win a round off of close range. it may not be as easy, may require more reads and damage. they may not have a universal tool to beat several options like some of the stronger rushdown. however everyone including amane can put in the work up close. the only two things preventing this usually is that they have the better zoning tools (usually needing to use every tool they have), and that should they mess up their defensive options are especially unforgiving.

 

in fact, minus nu and lambda, every single zoner needs to get in and rushdown at some point in the round, or they will find their tactics exploited, at least at intermediate level of play and above.

[Runis]

I think he's getting at "Jack of all trades"
1.1 Mu had options to completely zone out an opponent using steins and huge normals, or she could rush you down and use stein support to cover her gaps ala frame traps. You just had to get into a situation you could set it up.

[7thFonon]

In terms of FG's in general, I guess you could call Mu a hybrid character... but in the world of Blazblue, characters that do well in multiple aspects aren't that uncommon. Like already said earlier, every character that can zone in this game, can also rushdown.

 

But on the topic of Mu, it is kinda lame that they are taking away from her steins (which pretty much identifies that character imo, whether it's dumb/annoying or not). I felt like 1.1 nerfs made sense...like nerfing her DP didn't really compromise the character's playstyle, but still was a substantial nerf. Sure Mu is annoying, but I don't think this was the best course of action in terms of balance. If anything, they should have reworked the way steins worked completely and figure out another way how steins could work as strong zoning tools instead.

[bakahyl]

Meh, i still need justification why they removed the OD version of Totsuka.

The setups to make it deal high damage in 1.1 is rather limited (seriously, your opponent needs to be like in the middle of a 5d 2d 5d 2d stein setup) and the inclusion of a 3 times hitting totsuka would compensate the loss of auto firing steins (which i strongly welcome though, because it leads to more stable OD combos) because otherwise her OD will only buff habakiri and make steins fire faster

[StylisH]

That's just some elitist bull shit right there. 

 

Because it's more fair to the rest of the cast?

[bakahyl]

Because it's more fair to the rest of the cast?

Unfortunately Litchi can still do that...

Also it's not like that you can throw out steins blindly or when pressured

[pochp]

Hi. It's unfortunate that the stronger Mu players aren't as active (Sakuma/Keba, Hoan/Gilgamesh, Abarenja). I asked Dora who the strong Mu players in 2.0 were, he says he can only think of H.H. IMO he's a strong player, but it's really hard to judge a character from watching only one player play, especially with a character as versatile as Mu. I think it was actually Dio's BBCP 1.0 Mu play that I found most interesting, initially (for bbcp).

 

 

Her steins not going full screen is my biggest complaint. Maybe I'm overestimating the nerfs on some of these things, but she looks kinda bad to me now. Not only was the range of the steins shortened, the charge up time has been increased and totsuka blade is now slower. No steins off ikutachi sucks imo, as well as the weird 6b. If someone can explain to me how these changes make her safer or better then maybe I'll change my mind, but I'm pretty skeptical as of now.

 

 

Fullscreen steins : it was kinda dumb. I'll see how much it impacts the game when I get to play it, but I see that as a really smart way to keep them as strong as they are now (level increased from BBCS, usually low risk), without making them as painful for other characters to deal with. I didn't like the laser fortress much because, while it didn't chip, it still did kind of force the opponent to take action, putting them at some risk while yours is very low. It was a very oppressive strategy that wasn't hard to execute, and really hard/frustrating for the opponent. That's not "zoning", that's "character armor" imo.

 

The fact that they added normal cancels on them gives me an impression that they're much stronger now, as a zoning tool. In the current and previous versions, you'd usually cancel steins into jump/air backdash to avoid the enemy, or DP, which is kind of a big gamble (unless you already have other steins set up). By allowing you to cancel into normals instead, there's another threat you can use to keep them out. It seems kind of ridiculous. One of the things that struck me from the H.H vs Mio set was how he was using j.d j.2c to stop his momentum and then bait the anti air. It's faster than I thought, there's probably a ton of other applications.

 

In matchups against many characters, especially those with high mobility, I feel like this option of cancelling steins into normals is much more useful. Since you don't put out that many steins, and want to use them mostly to prevent the opponent from moving in. Range isn't that much of an issue, maybe it also makes the matchup easier for other players to learn. Instead of "just learn the timing, try to move before it activates to make it whiff." becomes "you can just learn the range and stay out of it. It's a lot slower now too. Just be careful of the normal cancels."

 

Agreed that the slower timings kinda suck, and it'll take a while to get used to (seriously, one of the reasons I don't grind this game much these days is I know this is changing, and knowing the timings is something I try to focus on). Maybe they changed it with the new combos in mind? Pressure-wise it seems really interesting, but even zoning-wise, while it sounds like a nerf, you have to consider the totsuka buff. I don't know why you think it's a nerf, maybe you didn't understand it? (maybe I didn't :o) I get the impression that it travels at the same speed, but stays longer on each stein before moving to the next. What this means is that if you do something like 6d/2d 236d where it goes far, it'll get to the opponent at the same speed. The difference is it'll stay there longer, so right now, it just comes back right away, and it goes back and forth so fast that it's harder to take advantage of. This way, you get the same strengths in covering space, but you get more from it!

 

I'm not sure what your issue with Ikutachi is. I mean, cancelling into steins was mid-combo only. Now we can do stuff like combo into 2c, place a stein, continue the combo. So we can still do combos where we set steins in the middle, and not only in the corner. The ikutachi change is pretty interesting, I feel like it gives us more options in terms of combo selection. I haven't checked the numbers because there's most likely still a lot of optimization to do on all these combos, but I have the impression it'll be like "do I want more corner carry" vs "do I want the more damaging easier route, but lose the corner". If you know you won't get them close to the corner, the second option might be better.

 

The 6b change is AWESOME. I don't know about you, but I know this scenario happens to me : zone the guy out well, win neutral (for that round), get in, start doing pressure, go for the overhead, guy instant blocks it. Now I'm at a super disadvantage where he'll hit 5a, essentially being safe against 6b 5d DP, and punishing me if I do nothing. Gets the hit, knocks me down, sets the plays, takes the match. So then I really stopped doing 6b as much, since I don't want to put myself at a risk for no reason. Then you watch another Mu player hit people with so many 6b you're like damn this guy is just going ham, but I can't play like that D:

 

The change has two great parts to it. First, you can gatling after, meaning you shouldn't get punished for having it get blocked. Sure if the guy reads it he should be able to reversal, but that's always been the case. The move itself also moves you forward, so you can generally keep pressing the advantage. The second part, is that for only the second part to hit, you need a certain spacing. Note that the speed on the second hit only version is the same as the current speed of the first hit, I believe. The impression I get is that the spacing itself isn't very hard, so it's more like something you have to get used to, rather than something you have to grind out.

 

It's not like you run out of options when close either. With late gatlings, frametraps are always a thing. This sometimes allows you to dash in for throws, when the opponent is expecting a late chain. I don't know if j.2c as throw bait is still a thing, but TRM is always there. That makes me wonder if j.b j.2c is still a thing too, that would be another unfortunate loss, but you can't have everything.

 

 

TLDR : Mu should still dominate at the same ranges, except fullscreen, but that really doesn't matter. I don't think the way matchups will be played will be so different that she won't feel like she always did. Her offence also got much stronger and more interesting. Slower steins kinda sucks, but cancelling into normals and other buffs make up for it IMO, both on a zoning and rushdown point of view. (I hope this makes sense, don't hesitate to ask questions)

[StylisH]

Unfortunately Litchi can still do that...

Also it's not like that you can throw out steins blindly or when pressured

 

Litchi can't either.  And it's a bigger risk now because if she gets reckless, it can be a LONG time before she sees the pole again.

 

 

Hi. It's unfortunate that the stronger Mu players aren't as active (Sakuma/Keba, Hoan/Gilgamesh, Abarenja). I asked Dora who the strong Mu players in 2.0 were, he says he can only think of H.H. IMO he's a strong player, but it's really hard to judge a character from watching only one player play, especially with a character as versatile as Mu. I think it was actually Dio's BBCP 1.0 Mu play that I found most interesting, initially (for bbcp).

 

 

 

 

Fullscreen steins : it was kinda dumb. I'll see how much it impacts the game when I get to play it, but I see that as a really smart way to keep them as strong as they are now (level increased from BBCS, usually low risk), without making them as painful for other characters to deal with. I didn't like the laser fortress much because, while it didn't chip, it still did kind of force the opponent to take action, putting them at some risk while yours is very low. It was a very oppressive strategy that wasn't hard to execute, and really hard/frustrating for the opponent. That's not "zoning", that's "character armor" imo.

 

The fact that they added normal cancels on them gives me an impression that they're much stronger now, as a zoning tool. In the current and previous versions, you'd usually cancel steins into jump/air backdash to avoid the enemy, or DP, which is kind of a big gamble (unless you already have other steins set up). By allowing you to cancel into normals instead, there's another threat you can use to keep them out. It seems kind of ridiculous. One of the things that struck me from the H.H vs Mio set was how he was using j.d j.2c to stop his momentum and then bait the anti air. It's faster than I thought, there's probably a ton of other applications.

 

In matchups against many characters, especially those with high mobility, I feel like this option of cancelling steins into normals is much more useful. Since you don't put out that many steins, and want to use them mostly to prevent the opponent from moving in. Range isn't that much of an issue, maybe it also makes the matchup easier for other players to learn. Instead of "just learn the timing, try to move before it activates to make it whiff." becomes "you can just learn the range and stay out of it. It's a lot slower now too. Just be careful of the normal cancels."

 

Agreed that the slower timings kinda suck, and it'll take a while to get used to (seriously, one of the reasons I don't grind this game much these days is I know this is changing, and knowing the timings is something I try to focus on). Maybe they changed it with the new combos in mind? Pressure-wise it seems really interesting, but even zoning-wise, while it sounds like a nerf, you have to consider the totsuka buff. I don't know why you think it's a nerf, maybe you didn't understand it? (maybe I didn't :o) I get the impression that it travels at the same speed, but stays longer on each stein before moving to the next. What this means is that if you do something like 6d/2d 236d where it goes far, it'll get to the opponent at the same speed. The difference is it'll stay there longer, so right now, it just comes back right away, and it goes back and forth so fast that it's harder to take advantage of. This way, you get the same strengths in covering space, but you get more from it!

 

I'm not sure what your issue with Ikutachi is. I mean, cancelling into steins was mid-combo only. Now we can do stuff like combo into 2c, place a stein, continue the combo. So we can still do combos where we set steins in the middle, and not only in the corner. The ikutachi change is pretty interesting, I feel like it gives us more options in terms of combo selection. I haven't checked the numbers because there's most likely still a lot of optimization to do on all these combos, but I have the impression it'll be like "do I want more corner carry" vs "do I want the more damaging easier route, but lose the corner". If you know you won't get them close to the corner, the second option might be better.

 

The 6b change is AWESOME. I don't know about you, but I know this scenario happens to me : zone the guy out well, win neutral (for that round), get in, start doing pressure, go for the overhead, guy instant blocks it. Now I'm at a super disadvantage where he'll hit 5a, essentially being safe against 6b 5d DP, and punishing me if I do nothing. Gets the hit, knocks me down, sets the plays, takes the match. So then I really stopped doing 6b as much, since I don't want to put myself at a risk for no reason. Then you watch another Mu player hit people with so many 6b you're like damn this guy is just going ham, but I can't play like that D:

 

The change has two great parts to it. First, you can gatling after, meaning you shouldn't get punished for having it get blocked. Sure if the guy reads it he should be able to reversal, but that's always been the case. The move itself also moves you forward, so you can generally keep pressing the advantage. The second part, is that for only the second part to hit, you need a certain spacing. Note that the speed on the second hit only version is the same as the current speed of the first hit, I believe. The impression I get is that the spacing itself isn't very hard, so it's more like something you have to get used to, rather than something you have to grind out.

 

It's not like you run out of options when close either. With late gatlings, frametraps are always a thing. This sometimes allows you to dash in for throws, when the opponent is expecting a late chain. I don't know if j.2c as throw bait is still a thing, but TRM is always there. That makes me wonder if j.b j.2c is still a thing too, that would be another unfortunate loss, but you can't have everything.

 

 

TLDR : Mu should still dominate at the same ranges, except fullscreen, but that really doesn't matter. I don't think the way matchups will be played will be so different that she won't feel like she always did. Her offence also got much stronger and more interesting. Slower steins kinda sucks, but cancelling into normals and other buffs make up for it IMO, both on a zoning and rushdown point of view. (I hope this makes sense, don't hesitate to ask questions)

 

 

Well spoken.  Overall I believe she got buffed, but you can't just fall into those same old patterns of run away stein, 5C when they close in.  Mu actually requires more effort, but it's worth it IMO

[bakahyl]

Litchi can't either.  And it's a bigger risk now because if she gets reckless, it can be a LONG time before she sees the pole again.

 

No idea where you got that idea, since all the litchi players (like Puromete, Mio, Galileo before he quitted) that i have seen in cp2 videos still do that.