[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Villainous]

Ok got a lot of stuff from the lab today, just gonna drop it all in one mega post: 

j.H on counter hit combos into j214S. j,H can also be used as a rising overhead. So basically, you jack their guard bar up and then jump cancel something like 2H into rising j.H j214S and get a combo. Believe you might have to RC it at that height but j214S can be canceled into j236H back and forth like his ground specials. Also if the guard bar is high enough to make j214S a counter hit after rising j,H you don't need to RC it since it gives a hard knockdown on counter hit. 

So basically if you get their guard bar up, you can do an unseeable 50/50 off a blocked jump cancelable move up close. 

Found a decent OKI mixup off of his standard combo ender with 236H. Basically after a combo like say cS 5S 2S 236K 236H, you can do 214K > air dash low to the ground and hit a meaty j,H. Depending on how early or late you do the 214K (you can cancel his specials ANY time during the recovery so you have lots of wiggle room), you can control if your j.H hits meaty or if it whiffs and you can go low. There's an additional layer to this in that you can let j,H be blocked and then cancel your air momentum with j.D to get an overhead low mixup after the initial overhead low mixup from the air dash. So essentially the mixup path is: 

Early 214K > air dash > whiff j,H > meaty 2K (low opener)
Late 214K > air dash > meaty j.H > 2K (overhead) (low second layer)
Late 214K  > air dash > meaty j.H > j.D (overhead) (overhead second layer)

Also I've got combos! 

Anything into 214S (ground bounce) can be comboed into 214K > late j.6H > 5S 5H 6H etc if you don't want to spend calories. 
After 236K if you want FAT DAMAGE from afar you can do, say: 5S > 236H 236K RC run up 623S (crit) 214S > and then go into the free combo mentioned above or do charged 236H combos if you have the calories to burn. 

Oh also run up 2D 623S gives you the crit so that's probably his go to punisher IMO unless you're really low on calories. 

[Dreiko]

If you wanna go for a go to punisher, 6H is what you want. More damage, can be done from further away and also gives you clean hit on 623S.

[Villainous]

Oh also a little late on this but people were discussing Sin's neutral vs Sol / Ky. Sol and Ky may have faster 5S's or whatever but Sin's has just as much if not more range and confirms into 236H which leads to damage. AFAIK Ky and Sol don't really get much off a far 5S. If they wanna get any real damage they have to be a little closer, where as Sin gets pretty good damage from way away. Also being able to jump cancel your specials for free is kind of a big deal. 

[SquizzleBopped]

I just got my ass kicked by a vet buddy of mine with the entire cast. Had no idea what button to press while being pressured and got counter hit to high hell.    2 is kinda trash and stubby, maybe s. ? Either I still have no idea how to handle block string pressure in GG or Sin lacks a good button to get out of constant pressure. I wouldnt doubt the latter though.

[Mr.Biscuits]

GGXRD: Sin overview by @Zidanel33t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjNhNacs0bM

[Dude Butts]

I just got my ass kicked by a vet buddy of mine with the entire cast. Had no idea what button to press while being pressured and got counter hit to high hell.    2 is kinda trash and stubby, maybe s. ? Either I still have no idea how to handle block string pressure in GG or Sin lacks a good button to get out of constant pressure. I wouldnt doubt the latter though.

 

I'm far from a vet, but after I got home I played around w/ Sin for about 3 hours.  My initial verdict is that he's a very difficult character to play and an especially bad character to try to learn GG with.  He shits out damage when the conditions are just right, but his mixup opportunities seem generally really bad compared to the rest of the cast and converting pokes to bigger damage requires a very high ability to hit confirm.  This is one of the very few cases that I would honestly just pick another character to start with.  I'm not saying he's a bad character (too soon to tell anyway), just that I think it's gonna be a longer, harder road than it needs to be.

 

I would actually consider picking up i-no for a little while.  She went from being one of the most difficult characters to play well to being the most brainded easiest (imo).  You can learn a couple of good mixup strings and loop knockdowns with really good oki super easily with her.  I think if you spent a few days in training mode learning some hi-low strings you would quickly get to the point that you could keep your mind ahead of your inputs and keep your mixups fresh.  She doesn't break pressure as easily as sol or ky or chipp, but you would be able to be on offense far more often.  

[SquizzleBopped]

This was my sanctuary, what have you done? BURN IT TO THE GROUND!!!

[Renegade]

Rumor has it that RTL's pre-flash startup frames are not invulnerable?

[chemical ninja]

I'm far from a vet, but after I got home I played around w/ Sin for about 3 hours.  My initial verdict is that he's a very difficult character to play and an especially bad character to try to learn GG with.  He shits out damage when the conditions are just right, but his mixup opportunities seem generally really bad compared to the rest of the cast and converting pokes to bigger damage requires a very high ability to hit confirm.  This is one of the very few cases that I would honestly just pick another character to start with.  I'm not saying he's a bad character (too soon to tell anyway), just that I think it's gonna be a longer, harder road than it needs to be.

 ]

While I agree sin is not easy he doesnt seem as bad or incredibly difficult as you make him out to be atleast from what I see. He does damage under a lot of conditions AA, pokes, throw, etc especially when hes in the corner as off of a lot of confirms including j.d he can go straight to the 5h loop which uses little to NO meter.Which is especially good as you can cancel his knockdown to 214k for a safejump or a plethora of options and mixups....its just not braindead.his ablity to hitconfirm hmmmm I would think most sins use their meter exclusively for RC unless they are going for the kill, hell he has a 6s that gets him a free combo on females for no meter.He doesnt have block this then wait for a high/low mixup from what I know if that's what your looking for but he has a pretty good neutral with buttons that are plus which is good, 6h, and 236 k come to mind. As for the road I just think he's not a braindead easy character and your going to have to know your stuff and learn the character properly.

[Linkexelo]

Any combos from a 6P ?

[tolore]

easy mode stuff is 6p->5s->jump->j.p->j.s->jump cancel->j.s->j.6h->214s->236h

 

if you can confirm counter hits you can go into ground 214s, or 5p and then do normal grounded combos for good damage.

 

The video mr. biscuits posted has some pretty good ones.

[chemical ninja]

Any combos from a 6P ?

What tolore said and if you want the big damage and you have meter 6p, 5s, 5hs, (delay) 6hs, 236 hs RC, dash 6hs, etc.

http://youtu.be/1Iiyh27OwW8

Edit....its around 3:12

[Dude Butts]

This was my sanctuary, what have you done? BURN IT TO THE GROUND!!!

 

dog I told you about this forum back when you were playing vamp savior.  I've been coming here for years.  I wrote this thread: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4705-jump-install-from-jump-discovery/

[Zephyrion22]

OK, nothing new, but JIed 214P/K is really cool, you get really neat stuff from the double jump on 236H air hit (1 or 2 hit depending on positioning and needs, but mixups still works), 236K and 2D. between the directions you can input from the hop, the direction and the timing  of your  double jump, you can pretty much hit anything on both sides, meaty or delayed, and it also acts as a finnicky safe-jump if you know the wake-up timings. nothing great but it still works well enough as an okizeme.

[Dream Maker]

Rumor has it that RTL's pre-flash startup frames are not invulnerable?

 

Yes, it definitely has some invincibility at some point but certainly not on frame one. I already got countered trying to use it as a reversal.

[SquizzleBopped]

This j.D htibox, the struggle. Still I cant stop playing him.

[Villainous]

Got some more mixup stuff for you guys. 

After a 214K or an air dash you can do j214S right on top of their head and it'll stop your momentum a little, so depending on when you do it you can hit from the front or behind! There's a couple of ways to confirm. 

If j214S hits from the front, you can wait a sec to see and then j.236236P and get a combo that way. If you don't have meter you can just go into j236HS for the knockdown. 
If it hits from behind, you usually can just 5H into a combo, unless you're really high in the air or something. If you're unsure and you wanna make sure they die you can just hit confirm an RC and you have forever to do whatever you want, even a raw 214S if you want. 

Aditionally, the first hit for j.HS, the one that hits behind you, will always combo into j214S. If you do a 214K after a blocked move and then make sure to get the first hit of j.H crossup into j214S, it confirms easily into a combo! This opens up a lot for his offense and makes it so the spacing and timing isn't so strict to combo off cross up j.HS! And you can do this after any blocked special canceled into a jump special pretty much, so its pretty nasty. 

BUT WAIT, IT GOES DEEPER! If you air dash over them as low as possible, you can immediately hit the first hit of j.H after the air dash, and it will combo into j.214S, meaning you can get ridiculously fast crossups that lead to damage! And the cool thing is, although this doesn't work on crouchers, there's a frame on wakeup where the character is forced into their standing animation, meaning with the right timing you can even do this as an oki mixup! You can do j.D instead and stop in front of them to add a layer to the mixup if they can somehow block this. 


And lastly: 

If you do rising j.HS, it recovers fast enough to do another attack afterwards. The cool part is the backwards hitbox on j.H comes out pretty fast so you can do rising j.H (cross over) j.H (1hit) and get combos. Works off of 2H jump canceled on block. You can come down with a j.S or j.K as well if you don't cross up. 

AND THERE"S ANOTHER LAYER! If you're opponent wisens up to this and A: Tries to block the cross up or B: actually tries to anti air it, you can do j214S to hit from the front after rising j.H and it will also counter hit anti air attempts. Also its untechable on counterhit so you get whatever you want after that. 

Long story short from all this tech, j214S is pretty damn good. 



Oh and unrelated to this stuff but 236K has a very low profile or maybe even upper body. You can use it to go through fireballs (even Ky's charged stun edge) and it also beats higher up pokes like Faust 5S and such. Really useful for getting around zoning. 

[Villainous]

Oh also not sure if this is known but after a counterhit 236K you can get 5S into whatever. Leads to a shitload of damage for free. 

[Yukikaze]

Nice work on the Sin pixel art (who ever made it), its one of the best. 

[mizuiro-kitsune]

Have we seen this yet?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbcM-OKUXGc

[Renegade]

Have we seen this yet?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbcM-OKUXGc

Can someone translate this? 

I can tell it's hunger conscious combos, and enders that leave Sin with +after eat...

But what's with the YRC causing double or no food? 

[mizuiro-kitsune]

But what's with the YRC causing double or no food? 

 

As for no food:  If you YRC too early (before the green aura) you won't get any calories back.  So, you have to YRC when u see the green aura.

[Brandinoli]

Some matches with Kid Viper's elfelt

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTstLYhVgvE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4i9mv8oNaA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuARQPrUAHI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaNQYvVi7BE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflK3DDClqw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXUBRteMyaQ

[Villainous]

Found a double eat combo, sure there's plenty more like this: 

2D 623S 214S 214K j6H 5S 5H 6H jc j.P jS j6H j236H (2hit) j236236P land 214S 214H 214H
 

[Pwnzor]

@brandolini hey I been following your bids on YouTube and so far your the most competent sin player I've seen, outside of comboes how do you go about opening up people with the character? Right now I mostly use pokes and hit confirms of beak driver,bull bash and stun dipper and what's a good solid option to do after you get the knockdown ?