[XRD] Sin Kiske Gameplay Discussion "Playing with Poles"

[Valas Phoenix]

I'm keeping the video thread OP decently updated but some people have noted that it's not super useful for new players and other things, as an example,

Actually we all started with the 4gamer basic combos, a bnb combo day 2 and pachi vs elphet videos. Now we can all have access to a huge amount of infos and tutorials, video, matches.

Maybe a thread that collect thoughts on food bar management would be helpful since that part is quite difficult to control well at the beginning, but again we can already find everything in the threads, one has only to search.

[muerto]

I started playing this guy a week ago and used this forum as a starting point, the fact that there's tons of info is great but the problem is searching through it all, going trough over 32 pages is very darn intimidating and time expensive (havent actually done it myself), so new guys can get easily lost and i think the only thing we may need is some sort of uh lets call it ´introduction post´ to orientates new guys be it be it with a list of links in order of importance or something idk.

You could say the wiki serves this purpose but there is just so. much. stuff. one could get easily lost first time you read it (unless its already organized in order of importance and im just herp). 

I guess more than a introduction a better name would be a road map or something similar that list what's more important to sin in order of importance. Or at least what a newbie should focus on first.

[Eshi]

I started playing this guy a week ago and used this forum as a starting point, the fact that there's tons of info is great but the problem is searching through it all, going trough over 32 pages is very darn intimidating and time expensive (havent actually done it myself), so new guys can get easily lost and i think the only thing we may need is some sort of uh lets call it ´introduction post´ to orientates new guys be it be it with a list of links in order of importance or something idk.

You could say the wiki serves this purpose but there is just so. much. stuff. one could get easily lost first time you read it (unless its already organized in order of importance and im just herp). 

I guess more than a introduction a better name would be a road map or something similar that list what's more important to sin in order of importance. Or at least what a newbie should focus on first.

This is a good point and it's something I've struggled to fix in every forum. I want to avoid blob-of-text style presentations that ultimately don't help new players (combo threads are a good example). I also really liked SKD's idea of a video thread where players break down in-depth the things that the Sin player does and why, both good and bad, as more useful for beginners than just a huge blob of videos with little context. I don't think I'm the most qualified player for providing such critiques but I can try.

 

Other than that, it shouldn't be expected for anyone to have to sort through every page of this thread to compile information as its more for discussion. If there's info embedded in here that will get lost then we should create separate threads that keep the content in an OP.

Edited August 5, 2015 by Eshi

[Zephyrion22]

Wow, just came back from holiday to see the big DL update ! Just answering something quickly

I started playing this guy a week ago and used this forum as a starting point, the fact that there's tons of info is great but the problem is searching through it all, going trough over 32 pages is very darn intimidating and time expensive (havent actually done it myself), so new guys can get easily lost and i think the only thing we may need is some sort of uh lets call it ´introduction post´ to orientates new guys be it be it with a list of links in order of importance or something idk.

You could say the wiki serves this purpose but there is just so. much. stuff. one could get easily lost first time you read it (unless its already organized in order of importance and im just herp). 

I guess more than a introduction a better name would be a road map or something similar that list what's more important to sin in order of importance. Or at least what a newbie should focus on first.

As far as the wiki goes, I've been looking for feedback since I'm a newbie when it comes to writing and presenting wikis. I realize the wiki can be kinda overwhelming, especially when you're beginning the character. I guess I could change the organisation, but it's kinda time-consuming. Best would be chopping it up to make it more straightforward, but then, people looking for that kind of info would be disappointed.  Until I find a way to edit it correctly and get around those to please everybody, you can still try to navigate using the parts and sub-parts to look for specific info and ask here or on my DL box whenever you need some clarification .Suggestions to improve the wiki are also, as usual, welcome !

Edited August 23, 2015 by Zephyrion22
typo

[faultydefense]

Didn't come up with this, just community info since I sat down and figured who what worked on.

 

 

This whole setup and follow-up (+ much bigger combo) works on:

sin, millia, sol, elphelt, potemkin, slayer, axl, ramlethal, venom, zato, bedman

 

Does not work on:

Chipp, I-no

 

Have to change the follow-up on:

faust, may, ky: iad j.SKS or j.S > j.214S (j.KSK and j.K > j.214K also works on Ky)

Leo: j.K > j.214S only

[Valas Phoenix]

Wow, just came back from holiday to see the big DL update ! Just answering something quickly

As far as the wiki goes, I've been looking for feedback since I'm a newbie when it comes to writing and presenting wikis. I realize the wiki can be kinda overwhelming, especially when you're beginning the character. I guess I could change the organisation, but it's kinda time-consuming. Best would be chopping it up to make it more straightforward, but then, people looking for that kind of info would be disappointed.  Until I find a way to edit it correctly and get around those to please everybody, you can still try to navigate using the parts and sub-parts to look for specific info and ask here or on my DL box whenever you need some clarification .Suggestions to improve the wiki are also, as usual, welcome !

The Wiki is kinda overwhelming for beginners, I'd do a separate chapter with 10 combos they must learn in order to play the character at a beginner/easy level, for example:

3 midscreen BNB combos : one of them from CH (236KCH for example since it's quite common), one of them with a ground ender and one of them with an air ender

3 corner BNB combo with different usage of tension and food, 6000 Cal max, at least an air ender

2 5D> combo, (midscreen 8 and corner 6)

1 corner throw RC combo

1 heavy damaging combo that works anywhere on the screen starter 2HS(2hit)>5HS(1hit) ecc

It should be already ordered by steps (first learn to combo midscreen, then in the corner, then use 5D, then using a throw, then using an optimal starter), but honestly this should be more than enough to "pick him" and play.

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by Valas Phoenix

[KentoHardRok]

So let's talk some approach strategy. What are some of your wake up tactics and your neutral game. I know it's different for everyone you play but I know I try to yrc into bull bash a little too much to at least pin them down if not catch them trying to jump away. Anyone else?


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[KentoHardRok]

And just left summer jam and I didn't see any other sin players. Where is everyone?

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[shadow_nobody]

So let's talk some approach strategy. What are some of your wake up tactics and your neutral game. I know it's different for everyone you play but I know I try to yrc into bull bash a little too much to at least pin them down if not catch them trying to jump away. Anyone else?


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Slide is your standard to approach if they're a more grounded opp. Versus more aerial opp. I choose to use TK Beak Driver to control the jump height. 

Bull bash YRC is great when put into the corner/knockdown. You can bait blitz and other reversals. I try to cut down on using it in neutral because it just gets beaten out too often for me. 

Sometimes I don't even choose to approach and just kind of space with 5/2S and J.6Hs to bait.

 

And for wake up tactics do you mean on ours or their wakeup?

 

[Valas Phoenix]

My neutral depends obv on the match up, but usually TK Beak Driver it's good enough to pin down jumping opponent and it's fast. Elk Hunt is good enough to approach an opponent and it can be used also for faking a low, for example using Elk Hunt YRC JD>or 2D. Beak Driver is also really good, it pins down your opponent and leads to big combos if you're good enough to use it properly on CH. Bullbash is fine but since it's really slow I think it comes handy to fish some Blitz Shield and on aerial wake ups, otherwise it's not something I would use much in neutral. The hop can be used in smart ways in some MU, for example against Axl I use it often on Sickle Flash to lure a Melody Chain, Hop K backdash on the Melody Chain, then Hop K>6>J6HS to catch them. 2S and 5fS are also good normals, and also the AA since it has a long range and head invulnerability, for example against I-no's chemical love Sin can use 6P invulnerability to avoid the chemical completely. Eating YRC is another thing I do often against rushdown characters, it's a good way to get them into the range of your normals pokes

On their wake up/when I get a knockdown

JD to punish wake up throws or just using it as a overhead and YRC on wake up BS to get a CH combo, meaty 2D/236K, Bullbash if I forced an early ground tech and the opponent isn't someone with a fast wake up (Chipp), going into their throw range and then backdash>yrc>5D, backdash to bait some reversals, using the hop>jump to do fake Jump in to bait reversals or hop>2K/late airdash/fuzzy stuff if I used the Jump Install, jumping/double jumping to bait some AA, Jumping>2K, Jumping>late airdash>JK>JS, 2HS meaty to get either a combo or a guessing situation with JD/2D, IAD jHS CH RC if there is enough space behind them in the corner to get a cross up (IAD>jHSCH>RC>J6HS>2HS ecc).

Edited August 30, 2015 by Valas Phoenix

[Zephyrion22]

Ok I tried to use the feedback  to modify Sin's Wiki combo section !

- Biggest change is the way it is organized : went from " Midscreen > Corner" to "Combo root > Extensions"

- Most of the combos were simplified or omitted to reflect the change

- Tried to explain things in the most concise way possible, because enough walls of text as it is

 

I'd like some feedback on this, especially from people who found it jumbled, the whole point was to make it more clearer and "bottom-top-like", so I need to know if it works this way !

[muerto]

I love it theres just 2 things that jump to me right now:

• If possible you should make 2 points bigger the title text (Laying the groundwork, Combo Extend(1) : In the corner, etc.), so its even easier to navigate.
• In the laying the groundwork part on punishing dps there's a typo 236s(crit) instead of 623s(crit) same thing happens in the cutting calories part.

On another note i have been noticing that 2s and f5s even though they are so familiar, they seem to be for exclusively different matchups, using 2s for matchups where the opponent got an amount of low profile moves (sol ground viper, 2d, ky 236k, faust crouch) and f5s for moves that high profile (ino and ram dash, may charged dolphins, axl 6hs) neets me the best results, so im left wondering if theres any reason to mix these 2 up, or if im far from the truth.

[Zephyrion22]

I love it theres just 2 things that jump to me right now:

• If possible you should make 2 points bigger the title text (Laying the groundwork, Combo Extend(1) : In the corner, etc.), so its even easier to navigate.
• In the laying the groundwork part on punishing dps there's a typo 236s(crit) instead of 623s(crit) same thing happens in the cutting calories part.

On another note i have been noticing that 2s and f5s even though they are so familiar, they seem to be for exclusively different matchups, using 2s for matchups where the opponent got an amount of low profile moves (sol ground viper, 2d, ky 236k, faust crouch) and f5s for moves that high profile (ino and ram dash, may charged dolphins, axl 6hs) neets me the best results, so im left wondering if theres any reason to mix these 2 up, or if im far from the truth.

Duly noted, I'll correct the things you've mentioned. Glad you like it !

yeah f.S/2S is mostly used depending on the MU, but you should always be using both. f.S has an extended hurtbox and get beaten by low profiling moves and 6P, but it eats jumps-out and has more hitstun, so it connects with 236K more often. not to mention that if 2S beat those, most of the character have answers to it (Sol's 236K, I-No's 214K/S, Ky's 214K and others). pretty much read your opponent and earn your reward

[sz96]

can you guys explain to me how can Sin get inside w/ his jHS. Thank you! It's a very nice application but I think it's kinda hard to do.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy5lw3K2wTSbJ_4YyBVjRiw/videos

[faultydefense]

i just have to say that playlist is sick

it's going to be easiest off a knockdown setup or combo ender, that channel has quite a few examples where he ends a combo in the corner, or a midscreen knockdown and then shows you how to go into a j.H mix-up

in general you can go for a deep elk hunt or beak driver and attempt to leap over.

Often times I just use it as an anti-anti air since it reaches so low and they typically wait to 6P or w/e until you are lower. When they catch on to this a lot of times you can get free j.214S

 

re:edit, from the same channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbaGyRslRI0 
j.H setups. 

 

of note with sin, don't force your way in if you dont have to. get a hit/knockdown first then you can set up something safer

 

re:edit...still going through those playlists and wallowing in the shame thinking i could ever do shit

Edited September 6, 2015 by faultydefense

[xlolxlolx]

fun part is i dont think he even shows the 3 way mixup off blocked 2hs

[khmxspider]

how do I fight chipp? Like alpha blade is too good. And his teleport mess up my DP inputs.

[KentoHardRok]

You should check out the matchup threads for questions like this, people have some suggestions that helped me in there. I try to control the air and keep him grounded, it works out for me most of the time.

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[Zephyrion22]

You should check out the matchup threads for questions like this, people have some suggestions that helped me in there. I try to control the air and keep him grounded, it works out for me most of the time.

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Speaking of which, since the old Matchup threads are gone, you need to go to the new Xrd matchup section, which is new and therefore still empty. Info will be retrieved in due time, but if you have any pressing questions, Be sure to ask them there !

[Valas Phoenix]

After watching VR-Raiden's Burst Grand Viper Tutorial I've tried something myself and... If the burst is timed correctly Sin can punishes Sol's grand viper with 2HS, even gaining 50 tension and getting a VD oki

2 Examples I've recorded https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meKtFKJRmnE as always sorry for the video quality ^^"

I think it can be helpful as a deterrent, if you manage to do this consistently (expecially the one that ends in the VD set up)

Edited September 24, 2015 by Valas Phoenix

[KentoHardRok]

Yea, to be honest, I thought this was one of those things everyone who plays already knew. I mean good for new players but there really aren't any new players any more, not until revelator at least...

Nice Punish though!

[Zephyrion22]

Info is info, known or not, if it can be useful to those who don't know, no matter how many they are, it's worth mentioning !

Here's info for those who like j.H tricks

High jump> slightly delayed IAD >jH>jD>RC>j.S>j6H>6H> critical stuff works on many chars except

Leo, Faust May

Perfect IAD> jH>j236H>RC>j.S>j6H>6H > critical stuff is much easier and more ambiguous but doesn't work on

 Faust May.

very inconsistent on : Ramlethal, Chipp, Leo

Surprisingly, both of them are quite useful in their own way. First one is surprisingly useful for neutral and okizeme, since it tends to eat 6Ps and reversals, but the cross-up is easier to spot. Second one is great for midscreen blockstrings, as the IAD is easier to buffer get the lowest height possible

 

Also for those who want their Voltic Dein mixups to be even more dirty.

along with all the other options you have,after the instant  rising jH you can replace the fuzzy airdash j.K>j.S>j.K by airdash j.S>j.6H. It will act as a confirm on most of the chars, and if blocked, you get the usual high/low/IAD j214S for a cross-up. Only issue with this is that if they IB the j.S, the j.6H won't be blockstring anymore and they can DP, Blitz you, or simply crouch for some chars. Still good if you mix it with the normal fuzzy airdash mixup.

 

Edited October 1, 2015 by Zephyrion22

[Valas Phoenix]

Yea, to be honest, I thought this was one of those things everyone who plays already knew. I mean good for new players but there really aren't any new players any more, not until revelator at least...

Nice Punish though!

I didn't even knew I could use the burst that way 'till yesterday ^^" are there any other special moves that can be punished using a burst?

[KentoHardRok]

Well faust's 3 piece air karate chop move, if you burst just as he launches you he will fly up and continue his action but his karate chop is a third motion and I think he recovers if he doesn't commit to the third motion. There aren't too many people who have moves with long animations that are also burst invulnerable. Faust is the only other one with a burst invulnerable special move. 

[www.keeponrock.in]

Well faust's 3 piece air karate chop move, if you burst just as he launches you he will fly up and continue his action but his karate chop is a third motion and I think he recovers if he doesn't commit to the third motion. There aren't too many people who have moves with long animations that are also burst invulnerable. Faust is the only other one with a burst invulnerable special move. 

Even if Faust does the chop, he can block, FD cancel, throw a bag, even airdash!