LM_Akira

Bear in mind those matchup rankings are from a looooong time ago. That's when HOS was considered high/mid A tier just under S tier. He's dropped down now in people's estimations because people have figured him out. So take those matchup charts with a pinch of salt now, there's now way the Eddie matchup is even for example, and I personally don't think the Potemkin matchup is even either. The Potemkin matchup has been discussed quite a lot throughout this thread... http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3003&page=2 http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3003&page=3 http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3003&page=4 http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3003&page=9

Which characters does your combo work against? You're missing out on using your dj as well. The standard midscreen combo includes 2 more hits than your combo, I don't see how that justifies it being the "extra long" combo. Also I don't think having 2 hits extra makes it any harder than what you've listed. The damage difference between your combo and the standard one is 2 pts (tested on Sol). I don't see how that makes it a better combo, especially since the SV in your combo is more likely to whiff or hit only once if you're not stood right next to the opponent as you 5D them. With regards talking about Fafnir above, you don't need Fafnir to CH in order to combo from it, (dash) 2S, 5HS (hj.)IAD j.P, (j.K or j.S or j.HS), SV will work on normal hit amongst other things if you're close up.

Okizeme is a Japanese term, loosely translated it means "the art of of pressuring a downed opponent" or words to that effect. Oki is just short for okizeme. Oki and wakeup game mean the same thing. "Mind games" is too general a term to associate with oki because mind games can happen at any point in a match, oki relates specifically to pressuring someone as they try to get up.

HOS oki was discussed fairly in-depth here: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1632&page=25 It hasn't really changed much since the Slash days.

It's not quite as bad as that, but it can be frigging frustrating (within the group I play with, I have 2 Venoms, 2 Testaments, Potemkin, Faust, Slayer, Johnny....I could go on but I think you get the idea...). The thing you need to bear in mind with Order-Sol is that you can't win on gimmicks/tricks alone nor can you by playing from range. You will literally have no other option in these kinds of matchups but getting right up into people faces and pressuring them. Order-Sol has great normals and excellent speed but this is not going to help you if you're on the other side of the screen. Basically what I'm trying to say is that once you get "in" on someone, you need to stay "in" and keep the pressure on. Easier said than done at first I know. With chars/players who can zone well, you need to be creative in your approaches...you need to utilise things like dash FD brake, dash 2K/sweep, low jump forward dj back, j.P (whiff) j.HS, dash buffered Lv1/2 BHB AC FRC, IAD (if you can punish something) and so on...bait them into whiffing moves and try to punish or at least try to close the gap and start your pressure. Check out WUT's primer for some detailed ideas.

This is a standard corner re-juggle as mentioned on the first page. These types of combo and variations of these will work on many characters. I still need to update a few lists, not had the time to test stuff recently. The trick is to get your timing just right for the dj.HS, j.D part, that's where the combos hinges, you need to have an idea of exactly how long the un-techable time is after j.D in order for your delay on dj.HS to lead to the combo working. Going for j.K is also an option (not tested it vs Slayer mind) which may work better because of the greater vertical hitbox on the j.K.

Cool, sounds very interesting. Oh and Hatred Edge to add to more to something I said a few pages back, you should only ever RC Lv2 RI in the the corner if you want to go for corner combo AND the re-juggle. If you're deep enough into the corner you can conect a dash 5S© without the RC so you can follow with the usual j.HS, j.D, j.HS, j.D without wasting Tension. Not tested it fully but it'll make it's way into the combo list once I have, same with Lv3 RI combos using IAD and the like.

Wow this forum has been quiet recently. If anyone wasn't aware, I've been testing and updating the later sections of the first post in this thread, it will get a general tidy up done once all the basics are in place. Then I'll pick out what should go in the next vid I'll do.

I think you'll find that fighting games generally work on the basis of "doing more damage to your opponent than your opponent does to you" it's something like that, yeah, I think that's how you win. lol next time I play this matchup tho, I'll use nothing but 5P, 5HS, 6P, 2P, Lv1 RI, Lv1 GB and see where it gets me. It's funny that even other Testy players freely admit the match is incredibly hard for HOS to win, guess you missed that first time around... Anyway whatever, if you want to ignore glaring and obvious facts there's nothing more to say lol

lol jokes. What does that +3 get you then, when RI hits with the very tip of the move? What exactly is HOS going to do now to lay the smackdown? In your face the +3 is good for frame traps like 2S CH fishing and the like but that's easy to see coming after a while so the opponent should know not to react to it (if all HOS is doing is blocked RI into 2S). So, pass thru a zeinest or 2 on the ground and hit with the tip of Lv1 RI and get +3, what initiatiave does that give HOS?? Give me a concrete answer not just "frame advantage lol!11" Hitomi and 6K both kill RI when used properly. You're saying HOS gets +3 from RI and it's a free win? I ask again, what does HOS magically get from his IAD j.HS on CH in Slash? If he has level/Tension he can combo, if not he needs to go for the knockdown or a pressure string. On Block you'd probably go for a pressure string too but guess what, FD that and HOS gets pushed out and has to make up the gap again. You seriously think that you're right with this matchup and all other HOS players are wrong? If you try to play vs HOS without using traps then yeah, then and only then might HOS have the advantage. But seen as tho you would NEVER player Testament like that, his matchup is horrendous for HOS. So yeah, this clip is very old and TB actually wins it but can't you even appreciate the work HOS has to do in order to get close to Testament? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAV3aTQUWKI Another prime example of Testy zoning out HOS with relative ease: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7QKtEaP6Ag Also, notice how backdash, 2HS and 6K all beat the IAD scenario you're talking about in those vids? If you still seem to think this match is eas for HOS, here are the edited highlights from the Slash matchup thread:

Ahh I see, cool thanks.

That's strange because when I was doing it last night I was poisoning HOS everytime. Wait you just said HOS just does RI over and over to kill your ground game yet now you're saying that won't happen and HOS will mixup RI timing? Yes Lv1 RI is +3 on block but that advantage is almost meaningless at times, it only makes a difference if he's right on top of you. Seriously check the old Slash forums for info about it. That +3 isn't what you think it is. Spamming zeinest will stop any IAD game. You're trying to tell me HOS wins this matchup beause of Lv1 RI and IAD j.HS?? What is IAD j.HS going to even score you in Slash? Unless you time it perfectly you'll actually end up out of range to gatling into the sweep for knockdown and an oki setup. So what good has it done you then? You get in close for what? You have no level because any Testament with a brain can stop you charging Lv in Slash. So what then, you go back to spamming RI or something? Honestly I won't spam this thread anymore as this is all Slash discussion (some of it is still applicable to AC however) but whatever, Testament is arguably HOS's hardest matchup in Slash and AC, ask any HOS for their opinion don't just think I'm making this stuff up.

What do you mean you can't Warrant RI? I just sat and warranted RI over and over again on reaction to the startup (I wasn't pre-empting it). I can put a vid up of it if you like. If you're saying HOS can just do repeated RI's on the ground to get in you can easily stuff a followup RI after blocking one (if that's what the HOS player is really doing). I blocked 1 RI and got 5HS on CH when HOS tried to RI again right afterwards. I also got 6K on CH. You reckon it's a very high chance that you'll get CH by Lv1 RI up close if you try to stuff it with moves (pre-empting or whatever), what's that going to lead to for HOS in Slash then? Not much at all. If you don't take my word on this stuff just check the HOS forum and see what everyone thinks about it and see what was said about things a long time ago.

So you're saying Lv1 RI wins HOS this matchup in Slash? I'll have to say I strong disagree with your opinions on the match up then, as would all other HOS players. RI beats/CHs your normals? From my experience RI can get stuffed by tons of things close up if used recklessly and that's still the same in AC. 6K eats Lv1 RI for breakfast. For a laugh I just put on Slash and set HOS to do Lv1 RI repeatedly a few times. It's easy to Warrant it on reaction. I even stuffed it up close with 5HS. Yes it'll go thru multiple zeinests on the ground but HITOMI will kill it (if used correctly). You don't even need to plant zeinests strategically against him that much since "any" zeinest planted in anyway is an obstacle for him to get around (mashing j.P is literally what he had in Slash, still does, tho the new 5S(f) helps). Air zeinests can stop his j.HS and air aprroach in general easily and 6K can punish predictable IAD (admittedly it's tight). I'd suggest you take a look here; http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281&page=13 http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281&page=17 http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1281&page=18 then if you want take it up in the HOS forum you'll see every single HOS player has a bitch of a time fighting Testament, especially in Slash since HOS had a terrible weakness against being zoned out then. He still does but at least now he has some better midrange options. In a way parts of the matchup in AC have become easier (HOS now has 5S(f) and Fafnir, as well as Charge Keep and Charge Cancel) but Testament's zoning is now even better against him.

In Slash, whiffing Lv1 BHB AC on the other side of the screen twice was probably the most direct way of reaching Lv2. In AC this tactic is less used...it's still ok to use once in a while but it is actually highly punishable without the FRC, meaning it shouldn't be used in a neutral situation too much. So yeah, manual charge at a distance is probably better.

Yes, that is with the fastest possible timing of AC, the slowest possible timing of AC could lead to a massive 72 frames of recovery! (without FRC)

Who is "TheJuice" on the forums? Is it Spirit Juice or Juicy G? Or neither and somebody else??

HOS can also dash sweep underneath coins as a further way to avoid them but you'd need to be up close to start with and be confident in judging distance. I was caught about 3 times by KJT, KJ hitting Lv1 BHB AC (from a good distance away) over the weekend, I think you kinda need to anticipate it, but as soon as you see him go for the BHB you should be able to CH him if he ACs (HOS is in CH state for all ACs). Actually I just tested it, you can do KJT, KJ on reaction to the Lv1 BHB and you'll miss the flames and get CH just as HOS does his AC. You can even get it if HOS does the AC FRC and doesn't hold back (i.e. HOS has to do Lv1 BHB AC FRC hold back just to be safe in this scenario).

Thanks for the input. And yes, 3K is not low sorry, I thought it was from the animation but I tested it last night and realised you can block it standing. I honestly feel backdash is your best friend when playing Johnny, not to be used too often but it's good against coins at midrange and to bait any pokes that have laggy recovery. You can nullify coins with 6P but it's not something I find myself doing much. Jumping in a neutral situation will probably get you killed as Johnny has 5HS, 6P and Lv1 P MF as anti air to stop you, unless you FD. KJT KJ can actually hit you if you do Lv1 BHB AC on the other side of the screen without FRCing, so it's probably best not to do it much (unless Johnny's been knocked down or something). And yeah, Johnny has no invincible dragon punch style move to get himself out of pressure (apart from That's my name) so he will naturally have trouble with pressure/block strings up close and fuzzy guard off j.S can be useful for knockdown.

You're assuming I'm going to be putting them up on youtube then?

Testament is like one of, if not THE worst matchup for HOS, same as in Slash. Testament can zone him for free. Zeinest, HITOMI, front and back EXE beasts, phantom souls...these are all an absolute nightmare for HOS to try and deal with. Then you have 5S(f), 6K and 6HS to keep HOS at bay. Bear in mind HOS needs to get up close for his damage you have a ton of options for keeping him out. Fafnir and Lv2/3 BRP are the prominent high/low options HOS has from mid range, but he can only combo off Fafnir from a certain range (too far out and he'll get nothing, just the knockdown) and Lv2/3 BRP requires gauge and a clear path ahead of him (no traps) so it's not like these are really viable options. He has a new 5S(f) but that only leads to damage on CH and with 50% Tension. RI can be used to pass thru Zeinests on the ground but trades with front EXE beasts and gets wasted by HITOMI. Fafnir can be stuffed by tons of things (it's happened to me countless times) the only thing you need to know about Fafnir is that you block it low, it has good range and it can be used to punish gaps in block strings. Consider a simple setup like: HITOMI, backdash, HITOMI, K Phantom Soul How can HOS approach through this? HOS basically has to play defensively and try to bait whiffs out of Testament. Once he gets in, he needs to mix things up and keep the pressure on. If he gets pushed too far out or knocked down, all that hard work of getting in has to start all over again. Check out this match from the G23 matches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4X1pgnnAmk Granted it's Shonen playing but 0 has to work so hard to even get up close to him. That's literally how it is with any Testament-HOS fight. Another good (silly) example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOzME52CB9c

Just to correct myself on this, you can actually use a normal IAD in a handful of combos where you would usually do hj.IAD, e.g.: j.HS (CH) 2S, 5HS IAD j.P, [j.K] or [j.S], Lv1/2 SV Fafnir, 2S, 5HS IAD j.P, [j.K] or [j.S], Lv1/2 SV I think this first combo will work on on everyone since I tested it on some light, some heavy and some medium weight chars last night but I've not yet tried it on everyone. It does less damage than a hj.IAD combo because you have to use j.K or j.S to hit (they have more vertical/fatter hitboxes respectively than j.HS which will whiff in this case apart from Potemkin, possibly others). You can also use 5S© instead of 2S. The Fafnir combo works close up, I don't know if it'll work from a dash 2S (i.e. a Fafnir hit from further out). Not sure if normal IAD air combos will work consistently after 2D CC and Lv2 RI but I'll look into it. EDIT: Ok after some testing you can do j.HS (CH) 2S, 5HS IAD j.P (j.K or j.S) Lv1/2 SV vs everyone. Using j.S will always get you the better damage. The IAD can be done as 96 or 866 and you'll still connect the combo. Against A.B.A., Ky, Potemkin and Robo-Ky you can use j.HS instead of j.K/j.S to get even better damage.

I will definitely have something to post about the Johnny matchup soon as I'm playing it quite a bit these days, as well as more stuff on Venom as what I've put up so far doesn't really equate to much. Johnny's another frustrating fight for HOS, it's not so much that he'll zone you like Testament, Venom or Faust can (for example) it's that he has such great range on his pokes and specials meaning it's hard to get into him. Mist Finers cover an awful lot of ground, especially at Lv2 which is what you'll probably see most (Lv2 P MF for wall bounce and combo, Lv2 K MF for air combos using KJ FRC). It's next to impossible for Johnny to score a 1-hit Ensenga knockdown on HOS (contrary to what I've mentioned before) but he can however use Divine Blade at the end of air combos for knockdown. He doesn't really have that many oki options now (at least I see it that way) apart from coin (to make you block) coin > TK Ensenga (RC) into combo (if you're blocking low on wakeup) 3HS (as a low poke) and so on. There are some HOS-Johnny matches in the media thread you could check out for ideas for the time being I guess.

For a laugh I tested this vs cpu and there's no "fuzzy guard" type thing going on here, the cpu blocked the Fafnir crouching, you just need to react to it very quickly. With regards the Lv1 SF juggle, well, that's been in since the very early days of Slash (for example in the corner 2D, Lv1 SF > hj combo was in the mook) but I will make a note of overdrives and their uses in combos at some point.

Yep, I have to say I've been stuffed out of Lv1 RI by countless Venom pokes up close. If a Venom player tries to poke you out of RI AFTER it's started then they'll probably get stuffed (but it would be stupid for them to try that anyway) or if you baited a poke then used RI they'll get stuffed but otherwise it's the other way around. The idea is obviously not to use RI up so close in a neutral situation, used at the end of a block string or to sometimes close the gap is better. I personally see this matchup as 6-4 to Venom, with the right tools a Venom player can keep you away frustratingly well.