Airk

Yeah. It made me sortof angry early on when folks were like "Oh, Tsubaki is the new Ragna, her combos are sooo easy". heh. Showed them. :P

Note: I have not verified this personally. :P That said, the input for this would be: IAD>C>C[hold]

That Japanese matchup chart has some pretty screwy numbers in it though, so I wouldn't really take it as too canon. Played several matches against a pretty good Lambda last night. Got blown up a lot, but never felt like it was the character - just felt like I was being outplayed.

I'm right there with you Shruikon - I can _USUALLY_ get the IAD and the couple of times I've gotten to the 5B point, I have this "Holy ****! It hit! Uh...what do I do now?" <drops combo> reaction. Still practicing this. Alas, I don't really have the patience to sit down and fail a combo for 30+ minutes. =/ The extra damage from the IAD combo isn't really fierce, but the extra corner carry is pretty enormous - Tsubaki already has good corner carry from her super basic stuff with 236B>214B>22B on an airborne opponent, but that can be used IN ADDITION to the IAD to basically go corner to corner. And unless I'm crazy, you can use the DP-whiff combo part (Speaking of things I need to practice.) to ensure that you can do an IAD combo off nearly any hit (or does that prorate too much to work?) In terms of doing the IAD combo: you need to hit with 2CC at the "right" height - too low and you can't connect the IAD because they'll land first, too high and they'll be able to tech before the 5B. And yeah, the j.C>C needs to be delayed for...surprisingly long. (Has anyone tried using the "hold the button" method to input this? In the guide it says that if you hold the button when doing a followup, it will come out as late as possible).

Hasn't been discussed yet; Honestly, not sure. I don't use j.236X outside of combos, but I feel like I probably should, because there are situations where it might be useful...

I assume you mean 22D; That's Tsubaki's 'standard' reset - stop a combo into 22D(hold) and if they don't jump out/counterattack, then the unblockable hits and you start a juicy new combo. This requires two charges midscreen though, since you need a 236D pickup there, vs being able to go right into a combo in the corner. Other options I've seen are the 6A>Unblockable corner tech trap (which techically isn't a reset, I suppose) where you do a 6A to hit a downed opponent, and cancel into 22D hold, so that if they tech after the 6A, the 22D hits them for a new combo. You can also 6A reset if you start a combo with too many 5A/2A hits, or if you go into 2B by "mistake" - you can gatling into the overhead, and if they don't block high, it'll hit them for a reset. There's also some sort of rapid-cancel > Air throw reset that you can do after the j.214X in the 'standard air combo', but I don't really know how that one works or whether it gives a green throw or a purple.

I get the distinct feeling that this match leans somewhat in Tsubaki's favor. 214X is extremely strong here, and 236C will punish just about any D move other than 5D, which means Lambda has to be very careful about trying to guess where you're going to be. You're right about the 236 beating backdash too - she's only got 5 invulnerability frames, which is way less than 236X is active for, and she's grounded the whole time, so no annoying 'pop up' on non-D versions.

I'm a scrub, but you'd be surprised at how many times people get caught by 3CC as a round opener. Probably because they think "Who'd be stupid enough to commit to that move at the start of the round?" I mostly use it against Litchi players who like to start the round with Itsuu. :P (It is Itsuu that's her guard-point-stance move, right?) But yeah, the risk vs reward just isn't there without meter. With meter, it's not bad though. Still, I kinda wish they'd left it like it was in CS1... though I suppose it doesn't REALLY help with Tsubaki's main weak point in CS2, which is to say, people who jump all over the damn place. :P

This is what I get for knowing bupkus about Ragna's blockstrings. Excellent. I am enlightened. Edit: Erm, though I add the clarification that you can only cancel "after" the first active frame (i.e. you cannot cancel the first active frame) and only if it hits on that frame.

#1: Tech purple throws #2: Whenever you are falling after teching an air combo, hold 4+AB to barrier block. Jin LOVES to reset you with 6C if you don't barrier block while falling in front of him #3: If he whiffs a 2D (The ice spike that comes up out of the floor) then you have 35 frames to punish. Do it. Do not attempt to punish on block. #4: Anti-air. Jin likes to reset his pressure by jump cancelling 5C for a jump in. You have to make him respect you by anti-airing him here and at least making him work and do shenanigans instead of getting back in your face for free. Fundamentally, Jin's pressure isn't really that good - good Jin players do all kinds of crazy stuff with ambiguous crossups and the like to make it good. Anti-airing their dumb stuff forces them to either back off or play better.

Welcome to "playing against Hazama as anyone except Lambda" :P (Lambda vs Hazama is best defined as "F-K! F-K! Go away!") Pretty much the entire cast needs to chase the bastard and try to nail his feet to the floor. Hazama: His matches are a pain in the ass.

Hmmmm. That's interesting. How did you verify this? Do you know if it's also true for gatlings?

Thankyou!

That match featured some tragic bad luck in the clashes. Also, that 'jump over and airthrow' nonsense in round 1 is rage inducing. I suspect it won't work against the D-DP due to the bigger hitbox though.

Actually, I think if you jump cancel, most likely the CA is just going to go under you and whiff completely, so you don't have to worry about blocking (though it won't hurt. :P) This isn't really the hard part though. The hard part is figuring on when the opponent is GOING to CA.

DP mashing through pressure is beaten by leaving "safe gaps" in your pressure - i.e. ending your blockstring on something that leaves you insufficiently negative to get hit by the DP, and then blocking, punishing. Since I think the fastest DPs in the game (inferno Divider, Jayoku) hit on frame 7, this means stopping on any move that leaves you -7 or better. (-4 or better if they are actually IBing.) Counterassaults are harder, but if you stagger your blockstring weirdly, you may catch people trying to a CA even though they're not in blockstun, because they were expecting to be, and generally that doesn't work out well for them. :P

Really, very few special moves have foot attribute, even when it seems like they should (I'm looking at you, Spike Chaser, huge swords that come up out of the ground). Running the numbers on 6C IB: 6C is level 5. 20 frames blockstun. -3 for IB = 17 frames blockstun. 6C has 6 active frames. Assuming it hits on frame 1, 5 frames go by before they can cancel. This leaves you with 12 frames of blockstun. Mu's fastest option after this is SoD, which is 19 frames of startup if they don't hold it. 214D becomes invulnerable on frame 10. So, no, it looks like SoD will hit you on frame 7 of 214D, CH you. OTOH, Arrows of Heaven is 4 frames slower, so would hit on frame 11 and you're invulnerable, so you WILL go through that. Similarly, if for some strange reason they decide to delay 214D, you'll probably hit them. Edit: 22A hits on frame 10, the same frame that 214D goes invulnerable, so it beats/loses to the same stuff.

I shall try to remember this. x.x

You are correct; There is no real reason you'd ever just let 4D finish, so the -26 is irrelevant. (Aside: There's basically no such thing as a -26 on block move that is "safe due to spacing" from Tsubaki, unless it renders the opponent airborne or something. There's always going to be something you can punish with - be it 22X, 214X or 236C.) And right. so... no jumping towards Noel during wakeup. Just not worth it.

I concur. Additional notes though: Tsubaki actually can't drive cancel most of her normals. Far more are uncancellable than otherwise. The only ones that can be drive cancelled and actually gain anything from it other than confusion value are 5C and 5CC, so those are the ones to watch for the charge cancel on. Depending on spacing, Tsubaki may be able to restart pressure from a slight disadvantage with 5B simply due to positioning, so choose your responses post failed bait carefully. Tsubaki probably has more ways to bait your DP than other characters, who don't have access to a D-cancel equivalent for their special moves. (D-cancelling being cancelling a blocked/whiffed special into a D-button special.) The one you really need to watch out for is cancelling into 214D, which has lots of head/body invulnerability.

Technically it's THEORETICALLY possible for Sword of Decimation to beat 214D, but once they notice you starting up 214D it's WAY too late - they have to release D within 2 frames of you STARTING 214D . And most Mu players I play aren't even fast enough to release 214D on reaction to 236C, so... :P Also, why is the Mu community the only one that uses incomprehensible move names instead of notation for their moves? x.x I have NO IDEA what Habaya is, because it's not even called that in the frame data. x.x

I concur; It took me a while to figure out that 4D wasn't 2D, because I heard everyone complaining about 2D and figured it had to be the move that was blowing me up all the time. x.x Eventually, I shall train myself not to jump at Noel on wakeup unless I want to barrier block. :P (Note: Even if I barrier block 4D on my jump in, can I actually DO anything to punish afteward?)

It's not a question of INPUT. It's a question of the fact that it takes 10 frames for Origins to HIT and if she's just holding block, I don't know whether her being able to block on the 10th frame means she blocks, or she gets hit. Basically, your move hits on the same frame she is able to block on if that's what she does. This is absolutely NOT what you said last post. You very clearly said that blockstun doesn't start to deteriorate until after the last active frame, and that's just not true. What you just said THIS time is correct, and in fact, what I said in the first place. -2 isn't really a very large disadvantage. Certainly, it doesn't mean anyone gets out 'for free'. Also, if you're going to mention Hazama's 6B, Tsubaki's 6B works exactly the same way - it has a large startup, which means it can theoretically be IB > DP'd (just like Hazama attempting to Gatling to 6B). Ragna's 2C is nice and all, but assuming your opponent was barrier blocking, you're not going to be in range to use it. More relevantly, you shouldn't be mashing DP after 6A unless you really believe Tsubaki is trying to bait you to mash, which is... just a dubious decision. There are definitely places to to try to DP her, and that's not one of them unless you've spent a lot of time and life 'training' her to do this by jumping out and getting hit by delayed gatlings. True of just about every character, but a baited DP is much worse for you than her getting hit with your DP is for her. But yes, asserting the threat of the DP means your opponent has to get tricky. This tactic is referred to as "playing fighting games." It doesn't mean it's 'free'.

Well, actually, she could probably cancel into a 214X attack, but since Origins is active for so long, it's a bit of a crapshoot. I'm not actually sure what what would happen if you IB'd though - she'd be at -10, but Origins doesn't HIT until frame 10, so she might be able to block it. Mostly though, she'd be stupid to not just use the airtight 6A>5C gatling, because she has a ton of options after that. I'm pretty sure this is wrong; A move that hits only once doesn't 'rehit' on subsequent active frames. If it did, moves with a lot of active frames wouldn't be negative the way they are - for example, you have Tsubaki's 236C - it has 22 frames of blockstun, 10 active frames and 18 frames of recovery. If the blockstun was refreshed after every active frame, it would be +4 every time it hit. Instead, it's listed as -5, because if it hits on its first active frame, Tsubaki has to go through the other 9 active frames while the blockstun counter is running. This is also not really true. Tsubaki charge cancel 5C or 5CC to be at -2 (-5 on IB) which is fine for baiting a DP, because origins doesn't actually hit until frame 10. Heck, 5C recovers fast enough to bait a DP all by itself, since it's only -7 unless you IB (and that'd be a VERY near thing.). The entire act of doing a "reversal" DP is based on them continuing their string and therefore whiffing due to the invulnerability on the DP. So Tsubaki can do 6A > 5C > 5CC charge cancel and essentially reset to neutral. You'll have a very slight advantage if she guesses wrong, but it's certainly not "taking more and more risks"; Additionally, if she DOES use 22D to make it safe, she's at +3 and can dash in to reset pressure with 2A. Even if she doesn't have stock, she can do 5CC > 6B (There's a gap here, so it can be DP'd, but if she just charge cancelled instead, you could be in for a lot of hurt as a result, so it's not 'free'.) which leaves her at +1, or she can do 5CC > 22C (Also a gap but leaves her at +1 and breaks a primer) or 214C, which will be invulnerable to your DP by the time it hits (large gap, could theoretically be jabbed with 2A). So essentially, a good Tsubaki has enough options here - particularly charge cancel - that you really don't want to just mash IB > DP unless you really think she's inexplicably trying to bait you pushing buttons in a very dangerous way.

It doesn't work like that at all; It's not -7 on block if it's cancelled - that I guarantee, because by cancelling, you are cancelling the recovery. Also, I don't think IB > DP works on 6A > 5C. The DP shouldn't even come out, because you should still be in blockstun when the 5C hits, even on IB. 6A is a level 4 attack with 2 active frames. That means when you IB it, you are in blockstun for 15 frames (Level 4 attack is 18 frames blockstun, -3 for IB). One of those frames is consumed by the other active frame in 6A (14 frames left) and then 5C has 13 frames of startup - which means it connects while you still have 1 frame of blockstun left. There are definitely places where you can IB > DP against Tsubaki (2B > 2BB or 5CC > 6B for example) but I'm pretty sure this isn't one of them. Of course, if people say that this DOES work, I'll take your word for it and go back to the chalkboard. A whole lot of our understanding of how this stuff works is based on using what can be established as true in the game and trying to fit the theory to reality.