Volpe-de-Glacio

i'm looking at jedah, but from what i'm hearing this game is going to be far too difficult for my delicate hands. . . excellent.

Muahahaha keep throwing money at Skullgirls.

Who else is hype for the new anime season? MLP: Tomodachi wo Mahou is gonna be super legit.

Holy shit, it's like my never-get-to-go-to-a-major curse is infecting everyone. Eddie is so fucking ambiguous I feel like I'm in a martial arts movie montage for the blind-folded training part whenever I block his mix-ups. It might just be my inexperience, but right now it seems like blocking it is pure yomi. Anyway, clawed my way to 700 PSR and S+ rank today by running the Narukami/Liz mirror gauntlet. Ranking is so hard once your PSR averages out. . . Fuck ranked forever now, I'm satisfied.

>Yes, data that could be accurate or could be false is still data. Data is data. If you decide the metagame is decided purely from results, then data is data is data. Nothing is false or accurate. There are those who play well, and those who do not. You can't have one without the other, so no information is inherently weaker or stronger than any other information. >I'm saying that, the way you guys tend to laud videos, I feel that you're taking them a little too much as "this is what it is." We laud videos because the Japanese players we watch consistently play well, and it's very entertaining to watch them push characters to their limits. I don't know what you mean by "this is what it is." When I'm watching a video, I don't think it's anything but a video of two human players facing off. Humans make mistakes, humans also play skillfully. It is what it is.

>which is why it's part of the whole shebang, not all of it Again, I haven't disagreed with this at all. My whole point is that videos give you an understanding of the meta because you are directly witnessing the data that is a part of the whole. >Not necessarily accurate results. Especially if they're all one-shots. Especially if 60% of the entrants decide to be silly and all append -kaka to their names and play Tao. Or the recent Azrael. A one shot match is still data. No one's talking about vids where people are just playing for shits and giggles. >Nuh, the term metagame depicts not only in-game stuff, but also what could happen outside the game, usually in terms of knowledge. Which only supports my point of how the term would apply to fighting games. Knowledge in a fighting game would entail knowing what each character is capable of, how certain match-ups work, etc. >Hearsay isn't worthless. Maybe I did take it to its logical extreme, then. I'm used to debating people who throw the phrase 'anecdotal evidence' around as an insult to your intelligence, so that's my bad. Either way, you can't use hearsay well in an argument, but you can use match-up data gathered from videos.

>Meta, and by association tiers, should come from results. What else would a large sample size of videos of mid-high level play be? >Meta is 'how' a game or character plays To my understanding, meta is how all of the characters in a game interact in the form of match-ups and tiers. If a character played certain way is winning consistently, all it tells us is that players are utilizing the tools a higher tiered character has efficiently. A true shift in the meta would be when new technology is found which strengthens or weakens a character's grasp on their current tier, or at least improves/worsens one of their match-ups. >It's all -part- of the circumstances that create a metagame. That's all I ever meant to say. I'm not trying to say vids of high level play give us a full understanding of the metagame, only that they let us see character's tools pitted against each other, witness tournament results, and compile match-up results. It isn't a logical extreme to take your words at face value. When you say that it's demoted to the status of hearsay, that means it's pretty much worthless. Anecdotal evidence is typically considered unreliable, whereas actual data is the heart of scientific integrity. >All we see is a counter-hit. We also see which characters win most often, what kind of technology is at their disposal, and how match-ups are shaping up at this point in time.

The things you learn through hearsay are only as reliable as the person you heard them from. The flaw you bring up with videos isn't a flaw with videos; it's a flaw in a person's ability to analyze those videos. They are different from hearing something works because when you watch a video you can see that until a counter is developed, this tool WILL work in this situation, or this answer DOES work to negate this character's set-up. As for your second point, that's the whole point of the term meta. Your perception of the match-ups, options, or tools that a character has shouldn't come from a single video, but rather a multitude of videos depicting the situations with slight variations so that you can get a firmer grasp on what's happening. This is why I make the distinction between Japan and America. Japan has a lot more higher level players than we do, and they fight far more often. They simply have much, much more data than we could ever hope to compile. This is also why I respect the way Tad approaches this. It's a lot easier to get a feel for your options with your character when you're facing those situations yourself and experimenting, as opposed to compiling a shit ton of videos displaying that situation. @AF - Yeah, I like to discuss stuff seriously. It helps me realize the flaws in my ways of thinking, it helps me to understand the way other people think, and it's just overall interesting to talk about. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna be laughing when it comes time to play the game, it's just food for thought, y'know?

@Tad: I can dig it. @Milln: I feel like that may be true on a person to person basis, but I still think you can learn things from vids. The meta is ALWAYS going to be developing, so things are always going to change even after we get the games in our hands. What works now may not work a few months from now. But it'll still work until we learn it doesn't.

I should probably stop talking out of my ass, going off of hearsay is definitely something I need to be more careful with. As for tier lists, I already brought this up when it came to match-ups. I just figured it'd spice up some discussion on the game and what characters people want to get their hands on. Also, anime games aren't that fraudulent. Just because Makoto's considered low tier doesn't mean Goro isn't going to body some niggas. Liz double perfected LK in TSB, even though people agree that the Liz player should pick a better character. thisthisthis

I thought so, but y'know text and all. And I still want to know what you think of Noel. On another note, I saw something beautiful today. Tao can crawl under Valk's wolf dash. I'm going to troll the fuck out of you the way that ninja edit trolled me. That tier list is starting to look fishy as fuck to me. I remember Azrael being lower because of his mediocre mix-up and I'm pretty sure Platinum was A at the very least. Also I don't see how they can forget Noel that easily when she's looking S tier as hell right now.

S+: Tao, Litchi, Hakumen S: Hazama, Jin, Valkenhayn, Mu A: Arakune, Carl, Rachel, Azrael B: Ragna, Relius, Tager, Platinum, Nu, Bang, Tsubaki C: Izayoi, Bullet, Amane, Makoto I seem to recall Azrael being lower in the one I'm talking about, but apparently this is Jiyuna's. Regardless, I've been meaning to play Tao since I first picked up Blazblue. Now that I have no desire whatsoever to go back to Hakumen, I should actually be able to stick with it this time. @Minionman - I didn't even think about it still being in the arcade version. Hopefully we'll see a few tweaks to OD before it hits consoles. I like the idea in concept, but like you said, it works a bit too well for characters like Hazama, Hakumen, Platinum, etc. NOEL ISN'T EVEN ON THE FUCKING TIER LIST SHE SUCKS SO BAD.

Oh no, I'm not tier whoring solely for the sake of tier whoring. I'm just saying when I'm interested in a variety of characters and I like how they play(pretty much every game. . .), from now on I'm choosing between them based on which one has the best set of tools. Like right now I'm looking at Relius, Bullet, Makoto, Tao, and Mu 12. I'll probably main Mu 12 or Tao and fool around with the other characters for lolz. I refuse to rejoin the anime struggle. From now on, I'm going to have options. My options are going to have options. My options are going to get with a cute, feisty option and make little baby options. Except in Gear. Johnny's too cool to drop.

Tao's everywhere, man. Japan says she's S+, and I've seen a few 3v3s that were mostly Tao. I'd say something about how I want to play her, but I've been so flaky on who I want to play in CP that they'd be empty words. Either way, I'm not maining a character without a great set of tools anymore. I'm done facing this disparity in anime games. All these debates about balance and match-ups has made me realize that most fighters are fraudulent as fuck, and should be played as such. One way or another, I'm gonna be pressing the fuck outta some tier-ass buttons. Playing a character who struggles making you better is nonsense imo, unless they struggle in neutral or something like Akihiko. Back to CP, I'm not really liking overdrive. It's like touch of death for some characters, and if you have low enough health it doesn't even matter if you're blocking, and you can't burst at all. (Platinum bombs, wtf. . .) It makes bursting kinda pointless because it would be better spent going into overdrive yourself and crushing your opponent mercilessly. Though I probably wouldn't mind it as much if you couldn't actually combo -into- it. I'm not ready for this at all. . . Does based-goddess Noel not interest you at all? Either way, play muscle man, we can have manly mirrors and spit in the face of proration. Matter of fact, we should all play Azrael. Azrael/Bullet/Izayoi side tournies, anyone? Then again, those characters probably won't be all that C tier in American hands. . .

How are y'all feeling about CP right now? Anybody been keeping up with Japan's progress?

whoa nigga, this ain't fakku.

It's a phrase I pulled out of my ass for objects remaining persistent in the environment after you've interacted with them, so yeah, you're thinking right. I think the PS4 will probably have more leg room in making the environment a lot more satisfying to interact with. And you're right, it doesn't enhance shitty level design. But at least your game wouldn't slow to a crawl because the devs fucked up on this one. Milln is Eyeshield 21 behind the wheel.

@ it actually being streaming, that's disappointing. @tret, there would be no point in making a new console if they only focused on graphics and peripherals. . . I say it's optimized for devs because they've been asking for consoles with 8gigs of memory for awhile for ease of development. We're probably going to see an increase in the size of worlds, the persistent environmental artifacts we can affect, and so on and so forth.

I'm just ready to see what kinda games we'll get now that they're finally giving devs a more optimal console to work with. Also, making capture cards obsolete? Fuck yeah.

My point about match-ups is exactly because they're just about data. We simply do not have enough strong players spread over the rosters in anime games to paint a clear picture of the meta in a timely manner, imo. Our ideas of tiers and match-ups take so long to reach anything even resembling a final product that it's pointless to give certain aspects a value because they're subject to change. This is different in games like SF where even in America we have enough players to make up for it, but when it comes to anime our perceptions of the game are going to evolve a few times before we feel that it's truly fleshed out. You're starting to sell me on your point about r actions, but I still believe you can tailor your pressure to lock out dp mash or easily bait it out without losing momentum, at least with the characters off the top of my head. It's all about knowing the kind of person you're fighting and expecting when they'll disrespect you. The risk of dping comes in a less technical form and more of a mind-game form. Even if you do have to use pressure with holes with Liz, those holes are tiny and you can cover them up. Not with actual frame tight pressure, but by conditioning your opponent to respect it. DPs are easier than ever to do, but that also means they're going to get baited more. If Liz baits your dp, it's gonna hurt. As for Gear, I'll readily admit that I don't know my shit. I'm just pointing out that I have watched videos of players like Satou, and it just seemed lopsided as fuck to me watching them put in so much work to get bodied. Anyway, I'll leave this point for further study. Back to Haku's risk/reward: you haven't really addressed my point. My memory may be fuzzy, but I seem to recall overheads in BB being reactable with counters. Unless I'm remembering this wrong, this does the exact same thing Yosuke's counter does (minus the activating off of anything part): he removes cancel options and makes pressuring him effectively damn near impossible. It simply being high level play won't change the fact that you can punish overheads on reaction, effectively destroying their mix-up. I mean, you can drop this discussion if you feel you should, but I don't see why. Only a blatant retard can't concede a point when they've been shown they're wrong, and I'd like to think I'm not that slow.

True, I don't fully understand Gear. I'm just pointing out how easy it is to form an opinion from a standpoint of ignorance, with the little bit I -have- seen.

I'm beginning to look at match ups in a very different light after all of this. I no longer believe in assigning a number value to a MU unless you're discussing it in Japan (and even then I'd err on the side of caution) Match ups can be bad, and match ups can be good. Assigning an arbitrary value is pointless due to the transient nature of the meta-game. That being said, aren't you doing the same thing you're speaking against when you jump to the conclusion that P4A isn't tournament worthy? You can hardly claim that you have intimate knowledge of the meta, considering you admitted yourself that you don't play it seriously anymore. There are bad match-ups in Persona, yes, but I don't see the top players struggling with them nearly as much as they do in Gear. I watch the best Johnny players put in WORK, make godlike reads, and still get bodied by their opponents. Nothing against Gear. I fucking love that game and have mad respect for it and those who play it. But from what I've seen and heard of certain match ups, I don't think it's as balanced as Persona at all. If a Liz makes the right reads and exploits the holes in her pressure, she's going to set play the fuck out of Mitsuru and likely grab a perfect. Same thing with Yukiko. If you play weaker characters in Gear, that seems more like a fucking fairy tale, no offense. This brings me to another point. You say inexperienced players can't really assess match-ups because they can't experience the match ups at high level play(or at least that's how I'm interpreting it), but that isn't entirely true. There's a wealth of information on the net showcasing just how those match ups play out when two top players duke it out. If you don't understand why those players made the decisions they did, you can take their vids to a forum to discuss with people more experienced than yourself, and then develop your own opinion on the match up from there. I also don't know why you think the effectiveness of counters magically evaporates at high level play, considering you can use them to REACT to an opponent's mix-up and punish them for simply pressuring Haku-men. Not to claim that I'm a high level player, but the simple ability to react to overheads and the like with counters is probably the only reason I did as well as I did in our BB tournaments. High level play doesn't suddenly mean players are able to cancel moves that haven't even touched the opponent yet. Unless I'm remembering how it went down all wrong, and I was yomi'ing before I even knew what yomi was.

I don't think he'd mind critique on the match-up itself, he just doesn't want to discuss the MU's value itself. And yeah Bace is really strong, but you gotta admit Star and Lost Soul are really solid as well.

http://www.twitch.tv/bacesk8/c/1941262 Here you go, Zomb. You might want to turn off the volume, lol. This is why we say Liz vs Mitsuru is not that bad. @Klein, you have skype? Also, who wants to punch me in the face if I get wishy-washy again? I'mma make this shit real so Star can eat it.