Volpe-de-Glacio

Are we gonna run SFxT? I'm thinking of picking it up. http://www.twitch.tv/bacesk8 good liz vs mitsuru matches incoming, + me

Nah, I'm not saying you said that. I'm just saying that when tiers are discussed, everyone seems to be like "Liz is viable, BUT. . ." To me, being viable means you can win tournaments. You didn't seem to believe Liz isn't competitively viable, so when you said you should counter-pick Mitsuru, it seemed contradictory to me. Holy shit, lmfao.

There's nothing to argue about this, it's a basic rule of debate. . . There's no point in making your point if you aren't going to back it up, so why say anything in the first place? On another note: fuck the sun and its gay ass bullshit. I feel sorry for you poor bastards who had to work.

At this point I wouldn't be able to contribute anything to this discussion, only echo better players than myself. Still, when the best Liz players agree that we're sleeping on the Mits' match-up, I tend to listen. Especially when they fight Satoichi, LK, Star, etc to reach this conclusion. @Star - the burden of proof lies on the claimant. While match-up discussions aren't exactly a science, you need to back your position up or simply refuse to argue from the beginning. @Zomb - If you seriously believe that a certain match-up requires a counter-pick, how can you turn around and still believe that character is competitively viable? This doesn't make sense to me. Regardless of the match-up's arbitrary value, next time I'm going to stuff Zomb's pocket Mitsuru.

Shoutouts to getting freed by pocket Mitsuru. Klein and Naimat for having beautiful mentalities. <3 Tad for being a free ass nigga and allowing me to channel his disrespect so I could steal a Melty match from Zomb. Zomb for wrecking shit in Melty. Boom Cube and Skeletal Minion for not even playing Persona and makin' niggas sweat. Papstr for DPing the air and molesting people. Anne Frank for letting me finally get practice on a good Aegis. Minionman for stepping up his game. Jackie for FINALLY getting casuals in. You and your beautiful disrespect. <3 I got some nice experience, glad I could actually play Gear with Phil. I'm comin' for Tad next. #NoSuchThingAsStackedOdds #WhyDoIEvenHashtag,IDon'tUseMyTwitterAtAll And Eshi for having his technology on lock. I'm not going to be this free next time. Shoutouts to me for never going past 3rd. One day I'll stop making retarded clutch decisions.

Well, I thought it was official. Yo Milln, could I crash at your place and ride up with you tomorrow if this doesn't work out? lol and if he's at work or something, would someone mind texting him this? working on a limited window of opportunity here. ed: s'all good now. i'll be there tomorrow

@MM - No problem, man. That's what we're here for. I am officially coming. Prepare yourselves! Cheap ass money matches with players far better than me! Fraudulent Liz tech accentuated by dropped combos! Casuals in games I love but have no clue how to play properly! And I guess it'll be like, Naimat's birthday, too. So there's that.

Hah! Also, Minionman. I don't know much about Slab, but you gotta be more aggressive against Liz. Beams and 2b are intimidating, but you'll get used to the neutral if you work at it. You also shouldn't shoot flames away from Mitsuru, as she'll just whip you for it.

Yo. . . Makishima Shogo is officially the most godlike villain in this generation of anime.

I'd say it's really 6-4. I'm echoing Spacebace, but I can really see it when he fights Star. I'm not as good at picking up random hit-confirms and turning them into retarded maximum damage, but if I was I feel like I'd win against Mitsuru a lot more. I'd take you up on this if I wasn't broke. We can do a $1 match? Go EC up in this, lolz.

I can't remember where Klein is relative to me, but would you mind picking me up, too? I -might- have a ride to Star's Friday, but that's a big maybe. I don't think anyone's that determined to continue the discussion, but I feel you. On that note. . . Yeah. That's why I say it's something I'm continually working on. If I thought it was 100% undeniable fact I'd've quit fighting games by now, because I feel like I've either hit a massive wall or reached my potential. I feel like there's something that's glaringly obvious to other people that constantly eludes me.

I'm sorry to hear that, man. >arguing against something you disagree with >by doing the exact same thing Mitsuru vs. Elizabeth is apparently 7-3, right? I invite anyone calling Mitsuru brain dead to come FT10 my Liz and see how that works out for you. I don't think Star is calling Gear or Millia brain dead, just unreactable 50/50 mix up situations, which he finds even more annoying at Gear speeds. This is why I started the yomi discussion. I think this is the definition of talent. I'm just of the (apparently wildly unpopular) opinion that it doesn't work the same for yomi, as it isn't a skill one can simply grind. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. That's what I'm working to find out on my own. You can put forth as many counter-examples of you training yours as much as you want, but right now all it tells me is that you have the potential to level up to that extent. And for anyone thinking this debate is somehow inappropriate and should stop - a good argument is entirely healthy as long as you don't let it get personal. Avoiding conflict never resolved anything.

In regards to UNiB, people need to realize that 1) it's a work in progress, and 2) it's French Bread's CT. The games we tend to play have been refined over multiple iterations. The game is already looking a lot better in v1.03. Damage is normalized to 3k for typical hit-confirms, and 7k combos require grind vorpal (the damage buff) and full meter. They also have yet to even implement half the characters. Speaking of which. . . http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7904/mika1.png http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4306/kaguya.png http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8983/lexd.png http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/7208/zenith.png http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5493/adelheit1.png http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/9595/wagner1x.png http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4237/caius2.png http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/7458/autonomicnerves.png http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/2332/kuon.png http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/4371/enkiru.png http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5291/noname1u.png

SOMEONE COME PICK ME UP AND I'LL BRING MINE. I'm 30-40 minutes on the other side of Nasvhille, though, so that's kinda unreasonable. Especially since I'm lacking in the gas, grass, or ass department. Still, can't blame a nigga for asking. I just wanna play gamez. I feel like if I make it to this one, I'll finally be able to play Persona at my best. This is how I play my games already, and it's why I feel like I can't just learn it outright. Some days I've got my opponent's brain on lock, most of the time I don't. I've never used frame data. I tend to find gaps in other people's offense through trial and error during player matches, but I find that often people will respect things that have holes in them simply because they're unaware of those holes. I'd rather find out my pressure has holes in it in training mode the day before a tournament than in the middle of a match when my opponent blows me up. If I'd sat down in training mode to test out my moves before the first Persona tournament I wouldn't have discovered Liz's defensive options were balls by getting bodied by Jackie. I could've spent more effort avoiding less favorable situations from the start, and it just might have altered the outcome of the match. I think it's a matter of personal preference, but training mode is just more efficient for discovering specific things because it's in a controlled setting.

double postan You can maximize your execution, develop frame traps, tech traps, discover holes in your blockstrings, and optimize your combos. I don't see how this gets you nowhere if you can actually apply what you learn in a match. I actually just discovered "deliberation" today, coincidentally. Not that I can do it myself, but fighting Spacebace I noticed that most everything he did had a purpose because he understood what I was capable of/how I reacted to certain situations, and because of this I could actually condition him (if I had the presence of mind to, which I didn't.) It's gonna take awhile to get used to, but I feel like I leveled up today. As for expanding on yomi, I definitely agree with that. When I used the 50/50 example in discussing my perception of yomi, I only meant that it was one of the more obvious facets of it. I consider it a really vague skill for that reason, because so many different little tricks and instincts fit under that word.

I just go OCD and copy/paste the quote codes to break it up into segments. Because I figured you were stating that it was a purely trainable trait, regardless of potential. I shouldn't have been arguing based on an opinionated point, but I guess I was trying to push the discussion forward. I'll simply reiterate that I agree that you can develop yomi through practicing against players. I concede that I was wrong in saying that you can ONLY pick up peoples bad habits when sparring, but I believe that what you can train in terms of intuition only extends as far as your latent proficiency in picking up mind games. This was just a poor choice of words in an attempt to rephrase a statement I'd already made before, so I'm not sure why you decided to deconstruct it instead of the actual point. I figured my intent was clarified when I changed it to "on paper", or when I originally made the statement as "from a technical standpoint". You're still missing the point, but that's my fault. I said on paper/from a technical/intellectual standpoint, that it (and by 'it' I meant 50/50 mix up situations, not competition in general) seems like a gamble. I say this because I view yomi as a concept/skill somewhat separate from logical thought, so when you're looking at something from a perspective of technical skill, you don't really include intuition as a factor. My entire point was that I believe it's not possible to train yomi beyond your innate aptitude for learning it. You've been arguing against an opinion, which, again, I probably should've made clearer. I get that because of the "no basic potential" part. If everybody's yomi developed solely as a natural result of experience without talent being a factor, training for excellent reads would be a simple matter of grinding your way to the top. You're drawing too many mathematical comparisons. I am saying it's finite, but to assume you can quantify skill because it's limited is folly. The fact that we aren't certain in our reads IS our limit. There are people who can be certain in their reads and they're rewarded for this - these are the players who I figure have the potential to actually train their yomi to a high level. I assume by "certain" you mean having a 100% success rate, but that's just ludicrous when you're trying to measure player skill. Nothing is 100% certain, so trying to use that to prove a point is useless. The mid level players like us are the ones stuck guessing in total uncertainty, which is my entire point - no matter how much we get better at guessing, unless we discover some method for legitimately grinding a vague skill like yomi, at best we're still going to be guessing.

In other games experience can more easily compete with talent, since success is determined more on trainable skills. This is why I'm not certain. I know I talk like it's an ironclad fact that you can't train yomi, but it's more something that I tentatively believe. It's something I've been trying to work around for awhile, because I feel like my decision making skills are rather weak. I've noticed that I'm able to read people, but I'm more of the gambling variant. I don't want to guess anymore, I want to know.

This doesn't preclude the idea of potential. You can develop your yomi through playing matches, but only to the limit of your capabilities. In essence I agree with this to an extent, I just should have worded my post better. I'm not saying it actually is gambling; only that it seems like gambling when you look at a game on paper. The example you provided could still be applicable to my theory that everyone has a certain potential when it comes to developing their yomi. It can be argued that the players who place consistently have the most room for growth in their ability to read their opponents. If this were true, then people would be able to reach high level play simply by playing as much as possible. Star would've been bodying everybody back in BB simply because of how much he played the game. The supposed lack of certainty also implies that you can't consistently read people, which would only help prove that fighting is akin to gambling. This argument is countered by your earlier statement; people skilled in yomi can consistently read their opponents with certainty to an extent. edit: redundance

I think you guys are misunderstanding and simplifying my point. There's a difference between what I consider yomi (the ability to read people intuitively, especially in an abrupt, 2/3 tournament setting) and reading people based on getting to know them through playing them. The first is an instinctive skill where, as Zomb said, you just know what's going to happen. The second is pattern recognition, a basic cognitive function deeply ingrained in our subconscious. I'm not saying people are incapable of developing their yomi. I'm just saying that I believe that unless there's something to the concept of empathic intuition, it's impossible to specifically train your yomi past your innate potential. To people who look at fighters from a purely intellectual standpoint, this makes competition seem more like gambling than an actual contest of skill. Because of this, I can kinda see where Star is coming from. If one of the primary skills necessary for high level play isn't something you can train beyond your basic potential, what do you do with that competitive drive? Putting in lab work won't make you any better, and practicing with people will only let you notice their particular flaws and habits. It won't help you intuitively understand how people are going to react.

This is why I'm so confused over high level competition in fighters. . . Yomi is this intangible, prevalent force and sometimes I'm unsure if it's even legit or not. I mean, it is legit when you see it in action. But how the hell do you cultivate a skill that seems to be born from instinct? Unless you believe in the more intangible, spiritual aspect of life and meditate to improve latent empathic abilities, (which I am looking into, as crazy as that might sound. I can't recommend meditation enough. Regardless of one's personal beliefs, it does have tangible effects.) it seems the capacity to develop yomi is something you have to be born with. Star, I think when you break fighters down into their components and scrutinize them from a technical standpoint, it seems fraudulent and brain-dead. It isn't until you factor in the speed of decision making at higher levels of play and the ability to read your opponent that you become aware that there's this invisible curtain of skill that some players can poke their heads through and some can't. If you don't have that aptitude for mind games, it just feels like rolling the dice. There's a difference between reading your opponent based on the pattern of their mistakes (like how we punish each other's bad burst habits), and legitimately reading your opponent. @Dark Souls - I can see why people want to challenge themselves, but I could never do a SL1 run. I'm so addicted to improving my stats it's not even funny. Also, for any MMO players, it feels like I'm back in my WoW days tanking heroic raids whenever I join someone's NG+(+. . .) and fight O & S. I can't say I miss WoW's addictive formula, but I do miss the thrill of tanking. . . I would kill for a Souls style game that focused more on group tactics.

I kinda get where you're coming from, but in my mind a scrub is someone different from what I was turning into. I think that mentality is a huge part of being competitive in the first place, and following some unwritten code on what's honorable and what isn't is probably the worst mindset one can have when it comes to fighters. That high of being acknowledged was separate from my competitive drive - I just feel massively robbed when I can't go 100% in a tournament. Partly because I can't improve when I make beginner mistakes, and partly because I was getting addicted to receiving acknowledgement as a player, and I felt I couldn't get the respect I truly deserved if I couldn't play 100%. Luckily for me, recently life has seen fit to backhand me a few times and make me snap out of my ego driven bullshit. More and more I feel like the shit I was so concerned about is becoming irrelevant, such as how I appear to others. One day soon, I shall finally learn to give zero fucks. Yeah. . . I'm a firm believer in partaking of anything in moderation. It probably sounds crazy to some, but I'm the kind of person who is perfectly okay with people using say, heroin or meth, as long as they don't let it control their lives. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms. I just had to make sure I wasn't coming on too strong, and I appreciate the feedback. As for P4A, I definitely need more Slab experience because WOZ IS ALWAYS BUSY PLAYING LIKE 50 DIFFERENT FIGHTERS FROM BYGONE ERAS. And Dark Souls <3. It's probably one of my favorite games like, ever. The day I stop having fun pressing mah buttons is the day I put my controller down for good. The feeling of correctly reading an opponent and punishing them HARD is just too damn good. I swear, it's like a drug. This last part is what I meant by alienation. My tendency to over-think things and general social ineptitude combined to make me feel like I came across as some sort of sneering elitist simply because I try as hard as possible, and so might inadvertently come on too strong, especially when I beat myself up for my mistakes. I feel like when I get audibly salty with myself I'm sort of messing with others' enjoyment of the game, because they're just chilling and playing while I'm bitching and cursing. I used to think somewhat like there was this invisible line that separated the community, but I've come to realize a few things about how flawed this mentality is. I viewed it as more of a priority thing. Training up for the next tournament or MTN gathering or even just in general is pretty crucial for me (even with my abundance of free time), which is why I get so crushed (and probably a bit over-dramatic) when it seems I can't make it out. It seemed to me that when people like Ayashii can become so good with their busy schedules preventing them from going to tournaments, there should be no reason other people couldn't do the same. Since they weren't, I simply saw it as a lack of effort, or else not taking competition as seriously. (I hope this doesn't sound condescending, it's not like I looked down on anyone for this perception.) I just felt we had vastly differing mindsets. Personally I couldn't fathom how some people had certain mentalities, but as long as they're getting what they get out of the game then I never saw any problem with it. It was just an opinion kinda thing. I'll admit I used to divide the community between casual and hardcore players in my mind, but I've since realized that not a single person in our community fits my idea of a low level player. Everyone is capable of adapting to different situations in my experience, and I've come to the conclusion that we don't have a single weak player because of this. Especially when you take into account that there are other games that players who tend to place low can absolutely wreck shit in. We've all got our strengths and weaknesses, and in the end we're all fighters. Or some corny shit like that, I dunno.

Haha. . . I don't even care about tournaments anymore. At least, not with the obsessive compulsion I used to have when it came to displaying the fruits of my training. I just wish I had some people to sit down and play Gear or Persona with. Instead, I get to press my buttons with Yosuke and get kicked out of netplay rooms for not playing "casual" enough. It's lame because I think I'm finally ready to disengage my perfectionist mindset from fighters and just play games, but everybody lives so far away. . . Anywho. Continuing with the trend of rambling on, how much do you guys think is too much? Is there a point where the competitive drive is taken too far? I'm not talking about being an asshole or elitist, but rather in terms of intensity and how serious one takes their games. I feel like I get so excited over fighters that the brief instances of respect or recognition I've received go straight to my head, and I continue chasing that high to certain extremes. I'm slowly coming down from that and remembering why I first enjoyed competing in the first place, but I'll probably always be intense about it. I might just be over-thinking things, but sometimes I feel like I alienate myself from you guys because I try so hard. It's kinda funny, now that I think on it. Back then I'd never be able to post this because it's all tangled up in my ego, but now it's just kind of. . . whatever. Well, I've about filled my rambling quota for the week. At least Dark Souls is still here to touch me in inappropriate ways. On that note: I fucking nailed Ornstein and Smough! I'm finally to the point where I'm addicted to this game again now that I've cleared all the content I've already seen. I really love how the lack of a structured story-line makes you play the game like a typical rpg addict (see, kill, loot), but when you pay attention to the subtle hints of back-story and flavor text, you realize that you're an asshole for killing half of the bosses. . . Especially Sif. ;-;

Now I feel bad for makin anyone worry. It's cool, the officer's arm's a bit messed up but nothing permanent as far as I know, and I'm fine. I'm probably not going to see you guys any time soon cuz of this. That truck was my responsibility even if I wasn't driving it, and I have to pay my mom back after I clear up my court dues. Sounds pretty interesting. . . @Star - I have the opposite problem. There's just so much interesting stuff out there that I can't possibly choose. I wanna be an astrophysicist, a programmer/coder, a lawyer, a doctor, a producer, a mechanic, an author, an economist, etc. . . But lately I've been leaning toward astrophysicist since I've been learning about astronomy in my free time. Of course, this is likely subject to change the very next time I come across an interesting subject.

Yep. . . I was riding shotgun, and they had to use the jaws to get me out.

Yeah. . . I was being stupid. I thought I could boil it down to a formula usable for high level play that excludes yomi, but of course it isn't that simple. I need to go on a training journey through the Himalayas or some shit. Now I need to see footage of you trading blows with someone in Sherlock Holmes style slow-mo. Anyways. . . FUCK THA POLICE. My life is starting to feel like a soap opera written by a complete asshole.