Arc Raizen

I know your pain. Except mine is I always seem to input a 1 in the middle of my 236236 motion when going for the 2nd 2. This causes 9/10 of all my Particle Flares on Makoto to become Big Bang Smash, and would translate to any character that has both 236236 and 632146 motions for the same button.

Wait, is this really happening? Suitable corner combos in CP1.1? Combos that are, dare I say, better than pre-patch? Where do I hand in my formal apology for all the rage-filled Makoto bashing I've been doing? Either way, time to practice!

I don't see how she has gotten more reward for getting opponents into the corner. She lost damage on damn near every corner combo. Period. I have yet to find a suitable corner combo that does more damage than was possible pre-patch. To compare to your 5B > 5CC > 5D corner combo, that starter in the corner pre-patch could hit 4222 or 4990 with Particle Flare (at least for the combo I used). Post-patch that combo starter hits 4179 or 4878 with Particle Flare (at least that's the best I've seen). The 5B > 6C combos are mostly unchanged, except for the fact that she lost the strongest one that leads into Oki (the Comet Cannon one). All CT combos (at least the 2C > CT ones) lose about 400 damage in the corner. 2A combos lose several hundred as well, and even corner throws lose damage. Luckily OD remains basically untouched and is her only real source of damage. Sure, she might gain some options and corner carry mid-screen now, but when all her damage comes from the corner and said damage is now worse, I'd say those (very) slight buffs mid-screen are essentially useless. She went from high-risk to arguably high-reward to high-risk, low reward. And this might be just be me, but I feel like she lost some openness in her gameplay and combos. So many other characters can do many different, varied and creative routes in combos, but now I feel like there's a strict order to how and what is put into Makoto's combos: you either follow it or you don't do combos. If you want Oki you have to end with 5D or 2D, that's it. High damage starts with 5B > 5CC > 5D, j.B > j.D is used early or not at all, etc etc.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what does "Rules Breakers Take Control" have to do with Makoto? It ruins the shirt for me because it seems to be meaningless.

Someone might as well start some CP1.1 combo list. Here's a partially updated list of the combos I previously posted in this thread. Any combos indented are new CP1.1 versions of the previously listed combo. Any non-indented combo with a strike-through no longer works in CP1.1 I haven't tested every combo for better or altered versions yet, and the new ones might not be optimal, but it's a start. I'll edit this post with any new changes I find in the future. Mid Screen: 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > (j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D) / (j.CB > j.D) - 3456/3265 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 6A > 6BC > j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D - 3548 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > j.B > j.D - 3198 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> j.CB > j.D - 3199 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> j.C > j.D - 3137 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> sj.B > j.B > jc > j.B > j.623C - 3327 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A > 236D - 2197 6BC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 6A > 6BC > j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D - 3024 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 6A > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D - 3085 (2D(3) whiffs on Carl and Relius) 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~C~A > 5CC > (j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D) / (j.CB > j.D) - 3091/2922 (ditto) 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~C~A > 6A > 6BC > j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D - 3176 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~C~A > 5CC > j.B > j.D - 2922 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> sj.B > j.B > jc > j.B > j.623C - 2979 3C > 5CC > 2D(1) > 5CC > (j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D) / (j.CB > j.D) - 2593/2354 CH 2C > CT > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 6A > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D - 4392 CH 2C > CT > 2B > 6A > 2D(3) > 66A > 6BC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D - 4150 2A > 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D - 2326 2A > 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > (j.CB)/(j.B) > j.D 2A > 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 5CC > j.CB > j.B > 623C~D - 2605 Corner: 5B > 5CC > 5D(3) > 66 > 2C > 2D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > (j.B > j.B > 623C~D) / 236236D - 4222/4990 5B > 5CC > 5D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 5CC > (j.B > j.CB > j.623C~D) / (236236D) - 4179 / 4908 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 623C~D) / (6C > 236236D) - 3735/4170/4958 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 2D(3) > j.B > j.D > [6A] > 6BC > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (66 > 5CC > j.B > j.623C~D) / (5CC > 236236D) - 3814/4296/5105 - See Note 1 and Note 2 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > j.B > j.D > 662C > 2D(3) > 6B~C > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (66 > 5CC > j.B > j.623C~D) / (5CC > 236236D) - 3629/4208/4945 - See Note 2 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 2D(3) > 6C > 214B > j.B > j.D > 66BC > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (66 > 5CC > j.B > j.623C~D) / (5CC > 236236D) - 3841/4324/5132 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 236A~D > 66A > j.B > j.D > 66BC > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (66 > 5CC > 236236D) - 3762/5013 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> sj.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 623C~D) / (6C > 236236D) - 3643/4044/4856 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 236236D) - 3962/5118 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 66A > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (5CC > 236236D) - 3656/4950 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > j.B > j.D > 2366A~D > 66A > 5D > (Orb Oki ) / (5CC > 236236D) - 3709/4969 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 2D(3) > j.B > j.D > 2366A~D > 66A > 5D > Ork Oki - 3870 - Does not confirm into PF 2B > 5B > 5CC > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 5CC > (j.B > j.B > j.623C~D) / (236236D) - 3520/4362 2B > 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 2D(3) > j.B > j.D > 66A > 6B > 5D (Orb Oki) / (66 > 5CC > j.B > j.623C~D) / (66 > 5CC > 236236D) - 3170/3571/4429 6BC > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 2D(3) > 5CC > (j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D) / (236236D) - 3508/4221 6BC > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 5CC > (j.B > j.CB > j.623C~D) / (236236D) - 3585/4354 6BC > 214A~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (66 > 5CC > 236236D) - 3018/4256 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > 2D(3) > 5CC > j.CB > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 236236D) - 3366/4586 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > 2D(3) > 6BC > sj.CB > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (5CC > 236236D) - 3502/4774 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > 2D(3) > 6BC > sj.CB > j.D > 665B > 6A > j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D - 3884 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (236236D) - 3516/4709 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 665CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 236236D) - 3749/4936 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D > 3987 CH 5B > 2C > CT > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 66 > jc > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.CB > 623C~D - 5037 CH 5B > 2C > CT > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.CB > 623C~D - 5141 CH 5B > 2C > CT > 2B > 6A > j.B > j.D |> 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 66 > 5CC > j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D - 4516 CH 5B > 2C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 6BC > j.B > j.D > 2366A~D > 5CC > (j.B > j.B > j.623C~D) / (236236D) - 4494/5283 CH 2C > CT > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.CB > 623C~D - 4966 CH 2C > CT > 2B > 6A > j.B > j.D |> 214A~C > 236D > 6BC > 5D > 2D > j.B > j.B > j.623C~D - 4512 2A > 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > j.B > j.D > 2D > 5D > Orb Oki - 2606 2A > 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > Orb Oki - 2205 2A > 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6BC > 5D > Orb Oki - 2226 2A > 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 2D > 6B > 5D > Orb Oki - 2568 (must be really fast on 2D and 5D) 2A > 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5C > j.B > j.D > 2D > 5D > Orb Oki - 2300 2A > 5B > 5CC > 5D > 66 > 2C > 2D > 6BC > j.B > j.B > j.623C~D - 2796 Throw: 5BC > 214A~A > 5B > 6C > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D - 3123 5BC > 214A~A > (6)6A > 2D(3) > 665B > 6C > 214B > j.A > j.B > j.623C - 2723 (Dash before 6A might not be needed on some characters) 5BC > 214A~A > (6)6A > 2D(3) > 66C > 214B > > j.B > j.D - 2512 (Dash before 6A might not be needed on some characters) Corner - 5BC > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 2D > 5D > Orb Oki - 3128 Corner - 5BC > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > j.B > j.D > 2D > 5D > Orb Oki - 3040 Corner - 5BC > 236D > 6BC > j.CB > j.D > 2D > 5D > Orb Oki - 3131 Corner - 5BC > 236D > j.B > j.D > 2D(3) > 5D > 6C > 236236D - 4111 4BC > 2B > 6A > 2D(1) > 5CC > (j.CB > j.D) / (j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D) - 2456/2620 Over-Drive Set-ups: Midscreen - 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 665B > 6A > j.B > jc > OD > j.623C~D > ... (does not work on Carl, 665B is very tight) Midscreen - 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > sj.B > (falling) j.B > jc > OD > j.623C~D > ... Midscreen - 5B > 5CC > OD > ... Midscreen - 3C > 214A~C > RC > 6A > j.B > jc > OD > j.623C~D > ... Midscreen - 5B > 5CC > 5D(2) > RC > CT > OD > 623C~D (why would you ever do this?) Mid/Corner - CH 214B~D |> OD > ... Corner - 5B > 5CC > 5D > OD > ... Corner - 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D(2) > OD > ... (236D(3) works, its just harder for a ~200 damage difference) Drive Fatals: Corner - 214A~D > 6A > 5D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 2D > (Orb Oki) - - 3674/4820 Corner - 214B/C~D > 6A > 5D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 2D > (Orb Oki) / (236236D) - 3575/4675 Corner - 214B/C~D > OD > 623C~D > j.623C~D > 236D > 5D > 214A~D > 236236D - 5995 (at <50% health) Corner - 214B/C~D > OD > 623C~D > 632146D > 5D > 214A~D > 236236D - 6653 (at < 70% health) Midscreen - 214B/C~D > 66(run) > 2C > 2D(3) > 5CC > j.CB > j.D - 3093 Midscreen - 214B/C~D > 66(run) > 2C > 2D(3) > 6A > 6BC > j.CB > j.D - 3272 Midscreen - 214B/C~D > 66(run) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> 2D(1) > 5CC > j.CB > j.D - 3091 (Can switch sides with proper timing. Wait as long as possible on j.CB to not cross up, slightly less wait to cross up.) Midscreen - 236D > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 6A > 6BC > (j.CB > j.D) / (j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D) - 3537/3711 Resets and Shenanigans: After late 5D or j.D in the corner - 66 > 5C > TECH > 2C > (214A~A > 5B > 6A > j.B > jc > OD > ...) Corner - ... > j.B > jc > j.BC Against aerial opponent - ... 5CC > TECH > 3C (Example: 6BC > 214A~B > 5CC > 3C > 214A~C > RC > 6A > j.B > jc > OD > j.623C~D > ...) Corner - 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 236A~D > 6A > j.B > j.D > 2366A~D > TECH > ... (SMP on second 236A~D instantly ends combo. If they tech neutral or backward they are immediately forced to block) Near Corner - (5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C) / (CH 2C) > ODC > 2366A~D > 214B~D > 632146D > 5D > 214A~D > 236236D (for when you have 100 heat near death and near the corner and just don't know what to do with it...) Note 1 - Can add [6A] on Azrael, Litchi, Hakumen, Arakune and Kokonoe Note 2 - 1st combo can fail on Hazama, Makoto, Valkenhayn, Platinum, Izayoi, Terumi and will fail on Tager from the 236D > 2C. Either use the 2nd combo or do 236D(2) *Edit: Added in a midscreen throw combo for damage by Kev-Ab, some 2A and 3C corner options, and 2 good corner Oki and full damage combos proposed by ZuperKim and Kcin. **Edit: Added some 6B starter combos and OD set-ups. Started section on resets and shenanigans. ***Edit: Added 2B starter versions of BnB corner combos for reference. 6/25 Edit: Sick of marking crap. Makes it harder to read anyway. Added some corner combos with 236A~D (CS2 2366A~D anyone?) and a new corner throw combo. 7/7 Edit: New CH 5B corner combo. 7/18 Edit: New corner combo with 236A~D and new shenanigans from it 7/28 Edit: Added some combos off of Drive Fatals. New corner 2A>Oki combo and added the most useless and stupid OD combo added to Shenanigans. I will pay you if you ever use it legitimately.

Yes it did. Is anyone else having input trouble with Particle Flare, or is it just me? It seems to be caused by the change that lets 6316 be read as 632146. If I do my PF input and I get 1236321236 (I just did it and thats what it read) I get BBS instead of PF. Here's a few examples of inputs and results as I test: 123621236D - Particle Flare 123631236D - Big Bang Smash 12363236D - Particle Flare 21236236D - Particle Flare 12363236D - Particle Flare 23632126D - Big Bang Smash 1236321236D - Big Bang Smash 236321236D - Big Bang Smash 32363236D - Particle Flare If you go too quickly on the input and hit 1 after the first 236 you get BBS over PF. This is a big problem for me since I've always had slightly wild inputs.

Aside from most combos with j.B > j.D late in the combo (like my main non-oki corner combo and the strongest corner oki combo), we also lost the 2C > CT > 214A~C pick-up. CT seems completely useless in combos now since you have to use 2B for the pickup. Also, is it just me or does everything feel much faster?

So you say the patch is out. I don't see anything.

It might also be worth trying to do kind of a 360 motion instead: 632147963C. I know most people use 6321473C, but both work. For the 6321473C, it's all about learning the flow of the motion and timing between going from 7 to 3 and when to press C after hitting 3. Just takes practice. I still screw it up all the time. A few days ago I couldn't do it 9/10 times, and yesterday I never missed it.

For anyone saying "hey, Makoto's still B tier so she's viable and the whole game is well balanced," think about this. From what I recall, the previous tier list had Makoto listed as C tier with Izayoi, Amane and Bullet. Essentially, Izayoi, Amane and Bullet all got buffed, while every Makoto player (and hopefully most non-players) will all agree she got nerfed. This tier is now has her a B tier, one tier higher than before even after getting nerfed. It's decently likely she is only listed as B tier so they don't have to actually skip a tier and leave Makoto two full tiers below the remainder of the cast whether or not she is or isn't regarded as truly that much worse. Either way...I need someone to hold me.

Well, its not like we all didn't know that already, but what exactly is that from?

I went ahead and added all the combos I wrote down to the combo thread. Feel free to work with those too, although I don't delve into OD combos too much and I basically ignore 2D starter combos.

Been meaning to add this for a while. It might be a bit late with the patch coming soon an all, but here are basically every combo I'd use in any given (optimal) situation (because I didn't feel like adding all the variations of 2B starter as well) Some are more than likely in this thread already, but I'm sure some aren't as well. They might not all be perfectly optimal, but they work well. Damage is shown at the end of the combo. Anything in parentheses is an optional ender with '/'s separating them and the damage at the end is separated as well. Mid Screen: 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > (j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D) / (j.CB > j.D) - 3456/3265 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> j.CB > j.D - 3199 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> sj.B > j.B > jc > j.B > j.623C - 3327 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A > 236D - 2197 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 6A > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D - 3085 (2D(3) charge must barely hit level 3) 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~C~A > 5CC > (j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D) / (j.CB > j.D) - 3091/2922 (ditto) 6BC > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> sj.B > j.B > jc > j.B > j.623C - 2979 (double ditto) 3C > 5CC > 2D(1) > 5CC > (j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D) / (j.CB > j.D) - 2593/2354 CH 2C > CT > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 6A > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D - 4392 2A > 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > (j.CB > j.CB > 623C~D) / (j.CB > j.D) - 2326/2144 2A > 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 5B > 6A > 2D(3) > 5CC > j.CB > j.B > 623C~D - 2604 Corner: 5B > 5CC > 5D(3) > 66 > 2C > 2D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > (j.B > j.B > 623C~D) / 236236D - 4222/4990 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 623C~D) / (6C > 236236D) - 3735/4170/4958 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 214B j.CB |> j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 623C~D) / (6C > 236236D) - 3643/4044/4856 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 236236D) - 3962/5118 3C > 5CC > 2D(1) > 5CC > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > Orb Oki - 3034 (might be character specific, never tested) 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > 2D(3) > 5CC > j.CB > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 236236D) - 3366/4586 3C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > 2D(3) > 2C > 236A~D > 665CC > j.B > j.D > 5D > (Orb Oki) / (6C > 236236D) - 3749/4936 CH 5B > 2C > CT > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 66 > jc > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.CB > 623C~D - 5037 CH 5B > 2C > CT > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.CB > 623C~D - 5141 CH 2C > CT > 214A~C > 236D > 5D > 2D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 66 > 5CC > j.B > j.CB > 623C~D - 4966 2A > 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > j.B > j.D > 2D > 5D > (Orb Oki) - 2606 Throw: 5BC > 214A~A > (6)6A > 2D(3) > 665B > 6C > 214B > j.A > j.B > j.623C - 2723 (Dash before 6A might not be needed on some characters) Corner - 5BC > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 2D > 5D > Orb Oki - 3128 4BC > 2B > 6A > 2D(1) > 5CC > (j.CB > j.D) / (j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D) - 2456/2620 Drive Fatal: Corner - 214A~D > 6A > 5D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 2D > (Orb Oki) / (236236D) - 3674/4820 Corner - 214B/C~D > 6A > 5D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.D > 2D > (Orb Oki) / (236236D) - 3575/4675 Corner - 214B/C~D > CT > 2B > 6A > 2D(3) > 214A~C > 236D > 6A > j.B > j.D > 5D - 4132 Corner - 214B/C~D > OD > 623C~D > j.623C~D > 236D > 5D > 214A~D > 236236D - 5995 (at <50% health) Midscreen - 214B/C~D > 66(run) > 2C > 2D(3) > 5CC > j.CB > j.D - 3093 Midscreen - 214B/C~D > 2C > CT > 662B > 6A > 2D(1) 5CC > j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D - 3826 Midscreen - 214B/C~D > 66(run) > 2C > 214B > j.CB |> 2D(1) > 5CC > j.CB > j.D - 3091 Midscreen - 236D > 214A~C~B > 5CC > 2D(3) > 2C > 214A~A > 5CC > (j.CB > j.D) / (j.CB > j.CB > j.623C~D) - 3416/3611 Over-Drive (only a few examples): Midscreen - 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 66 > 5B > 6A > j.B > jc > OD > 623C~D > 214B~D > 6623C~D > 214A > 236D > 214A~D > 236236D - 5459 (at <60% health) Corner - 5B > 5CC > 5D(3) > OD > 214A~C > 236D > 2C > 214B~D > 214A~D > 623C~D > (j.623C~D) > 236236D - 5752 (at <50% health, add j.623C~D at <40% health for 6202) Corner - 5B > 6C > 214A~C > 236D(2) > OD > 623C~D > 214B~D > j.623C~D > 5D > 214A~D > 236236D - 6136 (at <50% health) Corner <=10% - OD > 236A~D > 5D > 214A~D > 236D > 623C~D > j.D > 214B~D > j.623C~D > 2D > 632146D > 236236D - 6869 (all OD version Drive moves except 214A~C~D at <10% health)

I don't think she needs anything more than some tweaks to things that just don't make sense or sound stupidly unfair since few/no other characters have these or similar issues: Bad combo time and P1 combination on all fatals Low-ish combo rating (Mu is similar in having many single, hard hitting attacks, but her combo rating is 80 while Makoto's is 70) DP whiffs over low-profile targets Lander Blow level 1 (no charge) is slower than Lander Blow level 2 Parry only followed up with Rapid or OD (I would love to see level 2 be comboable but with really low proration) 6B not forcing crouch BnB combos not working or are more difficult on random characters (214A~D and 5CC failing on sliding Jin/Valk, 6C>214A~C>236D whiffing often on much of the cast) 6A doesn't launch on counter (this could help so much for something so little, especially since some of the cast can get launch without counter hit) Bring j.B hitstun back, slight nerf to CH j.B hitstun is alright and fair Star Gazer (low) almost 3 times as unsafe as Mars Chopper (high) and Mars Chopper cannot be followed up except on counter hit (seriously, just allowing 5A/2A to work wouldn't hurt, she already has way too many instances of moves only working for combos on counter) That's what I have for now, but even a small subset of these changes could easily help bring her out of bottom tier without changing her gameplay or completely breaking her like they did with CS2, and I cannot understand why they don't see these small tweaks being feasible, or if they even realize she's as bad as she is.

I thought the damage went down even with the new routes? I'll go back and try to find the what you're talking about, but I dont think I missed anything in this topic.

Teutonicknight is right. j.B sounds like a neutral change, but reports are that even with the gatling to j.D it will not work late in combos. When does Makoto use j.B > j.D? Late in combos. So, we have to re-work all combos to compensate, losing damage across the board. 6B "buff" is a quality of life change that was never necessary or wanted. It slightly helps to mitigate the j.B nerf becacuse it is now used in combos, but it still comes out overall negative. There's also the nerf to OD Particle Flare minimum damage, which is a straight up nerf to OD combos, as well as the backdash nerf. On another note, I was testing some things with her Fatals a little while ago. CH 2C is straight up WORSE in the corner than CH 5B. You can get more damage off of CH 5B than from CH 2C because both allow you do the the EXACT same combo, but 5B has better P1. I cannot break 4k damage off of any drive fatal without meter. Lightning Arrow only comboable in the corner, but gets some corner carry midscreen. Cosmic Ray fatal only comboable in the corner. Shooting Star has 80 P1 that kills all damage although it has potential to combo midscreen. Drive normal fatals aren't better.

At this point, I'm getting ready to write to anyone I can at Arc System Works and try to get at least an answer to "why did she get the changes you gave her," "do you not think she is already too weak without these changes," and "what do you think she has that no one does?" Do they not see everybody disappointed and angry with the changes she has been getting the past few iterations? Do they not see the professional players literally dropping her because they cannot possibly win while playing her? Lets go over where she stands right now: Less average damage than other rushdown characters Meh oki Very weak neutral game Extremely unsafe moves and blockstrings (at least she got a move safe on block to reset pressure, right.........) The worst DP in the game And average Overdrive Possibly worst fatals of the entire cast (2C has an 90 P1 and is extremely difficult to land, especially compared to Noel's 4D which has the same P1 and combo time but is made to fish out counters. All her drive fatals are either 80 P1 with normal combo time or 90 P1 with short combo time except for Comet Cannon which is just unrealistic to ever hit once in 100 games.) Like sharpshooter188 said, she doesn't seem to have a place in the cast. Anyone playing her is doing it because they like her as a character or because they like a challenge, not because her playstyle offers something over the other characters. As far as I can tell, the only thing she still has going for her is corner carry, but that hardly matters if your oki is only ok if you get them into the corner and if you don't you're right back to neutral which is the toughest thing for her.

At least for me, I generally don't use OD unless I know I will kill the opponent with it or I am already at <35% health and more than likely the next OD combo kills them, so half the time the combo kills them, half the time PF kills, but it's very rare that the damage difference between OD and non-OD PF would have left the opponent alive (e.g. using OD PF when they have <1k health left). And yes, that is her 1.0 damage. I was comparing it to the rest of the casts 1.0 damage. When someone confirms the 1.1 damage, we will know whether to just shrug it off or panic.

Makoto's minimum damage for Particle Flare, according to the frame data, is 1562. OD Particle Flare tends to be fairly important to Makoto to finish off opponents, but you usually never see its minimum damage matter since it's almost always being used as a round-ender when the opponent has virtually no health left. That being said, OD Particle Flare is the go-to source of damage for Makoto with early OD combos: you use OD, you end with Particle Flare. So, nerfing its minimum damage is going to immediately nerf all non-round ending OD combos from Makoto. Lets take a look at some other minimum damage numbers for various supers: Ragna OD Carnage Scissors - 1410 Jin OD Touga Hyoujin - 1300 Noel OD Fenrir - 1200 minimum Arakune OD F Inverse - 715 Litchi OD All Green - 1246 Litchi OD All Terminals - 1580 Hakumen OD Shippu - 1720 (assuming no charge) Hakumen OD Yukikaze - 1012 Nu OD Calamity Sword - 1500 Tsubaki OD Confutatis Maledictis - 680/810/1089/1320/1760/2080 (damage dependent on charge) Mu OD Wisdom of the Divine - 1360 Valkenhayn OD Sturm Wolf - 1600 Platinum OD Cure Dot Typhoon - 1172 Makoto is a bit higher than average in this list, but clearly not the strongest (Hakumen/Valk and possibly Tsubaki). I see no immediate notion that Makoto's super is vastly superior to any other, especially when she is so reliant on it and many of these characters just throw out the super if they get the chance, but hardly need to use them every chance they get. I think the best comparison is Ragna who gets slightly more than 100 less damage off of Carnage Scissors. If that's what Makoto is getting, I'll take it. 100 damage is probably not going to matter, but rather just piss me off because its so unwarranted. Any lower than that and Makoto is going to have not only weak neutral game and horrible matchups, but also a below average OD Super, leaving her with just about literally nothing she does better than anyone else. tl;dr - Mori......why the hell do you hate Makoto? Do you literally think this is balanced or are you doing this to purposely un-balance a character in a highly regarded competitive fighting game?

Nerfed backdash that wasn't even good to begin with. j.B > j.D Gatling that only serves to make obnoxious-to-land combos not obnoxious anymore (they never should have been) j.B hitstun nerf 6B groundbounce on air hit seems to serve no real purpose that anyone can see until we get our hands on it. Sounds like they were fixing something that wasn't broken CT nerf is meaningless. You could do CT > Taunt > OD > Combo, now you probably can't taunt them. So yeah, no (seemingly) meaningful buffs AND nerfs to a bottom-tier character. Way to go! Put Makoto in her place, that'll teach her to be crap!

Are these backdashes with duration increases considered nerfs or buffs? I don't quite understand of implications of what the changes are. If, like for Makoto's, it went from 20 to 22 frames, it sounds like it's now 2 frames longer without any extra invulnerability, making it just slower and now worse. Again, it could be misinterpreting it.

That is awesome! Many thanks. Do we know when to expect the next round of those patch note for the rest of the cast or no?

I would love to see Lander Blow be a bit faster and more usable for pressure, and maybe even have a bit more hitstun/higher juggle so it has 1 or 2 potentially useful combo routes. Something I would still love to see is Parry being useful aside from level 3, which still requires a rapid or to already be in Overdrive. It's a great move for her, but the requirements to do any decent damage or combo off of it aren't worth it. They seem to have done better at making non-level 3 charges a bit more useful in CP (2D level 1, 2 and 3 are useful, same with Lander Blower, 236D(2) > OD in the corner, etc.), so I've always wanted Parry level 2 to be naturally comboable (stops behind opponent within range of a follow-up without spending heat), but to simply be a really bad starter with like 60% P1 and/or a Short combo timer. Just something to make me want to Parry without spending heat.

So I started doing/figured out you could do 5B > 5CC > 2D(2) > 66 > 5B which is hella difficult at first, but lets you add on 6A > j.B > jc > OD for an OD combo from a 5B starter and anywhere on the screen. I've also never seen anyone every mention this or seen any videos of anyone doing it. Did I somehow discover something new or have other people tried it any just not liked it? I think it's plenty good in theory since it lets you corner carry instantly from a 5B starter, and with low enough health and enough heat you can get ~5.5k out of it or more.

Anyone have good recommendations for combos off of her Drive Fatals? I know they've never been good, but they still happen and I want to make the most of them. So far I have for Cosmic Ray and Lightning Arrow in the Corner: ~ >6A > 5D > 214A~C > 236D > 5CC > j.B > j.5D > 2D > 236236D (4820dmg) or Orb Oki instead of Particle Flare And for midscreen Lightning Arrow I have: 214B/C~D > 66 (run) > 2B > 6A > 2D(1) > 5B > 6A > j.B > j.5D (2651dmg). Use it for corner carry because the most damage I can get with a CT doesn't seem worth it over the large corner carry. For Fatal Normals I basically just do short and safe combos into Oki. Can't really find enough damage to ignore the oki off it.