Zephyrion22

This is the thread to discuss about the Sin vs Zato Match-up. A quick overview will be made available once players from both sides give sufficient info Sin vs Zato -Round start -Neutral Sin's efficient moves against Zato and Zato's possible answers What tools you shouldn't use, or use sparingly against him Zato's efficient moves against Sin and Sin's possible answers What tool you shouldn't use or use sparingly against him -Offense/Defense discuss what works or doesn"t work for Sin against Zato when pressuring or on wake-up, and Zato's defensive options that are useful or not in this Match-up discuss what works or doesn't work for Zato against Sin when pressuring or on wake-up, and Sin's defensive options options that are useful or not in this Match-up

Placeholder : Discuss the pole-vaulting mirror here !

This is the thread to discuss about the Sin vs Ramlethal Match-up. A quick overview will be made available once players from both sides give sufficient info Sin vs Ramlethal -Round start -Neutral Sin's efficient moves against Ramlethal and Ramlethal's possible answers What tools you shouldn't use, or use sparingly against him Ramlethal's efficient moves against Sin and Sin's possible answers What tool you shouldn't use or use sparingly against him -Offense/Defense discuss what works or doesn"t work for Sin against Ramlethal when pressuring or on wake-up, and Ramlethal's defensive options that are useful or not in this Match-up discuss what works or doesn't work for Chipp against Sin when pressuring or on wake-up, and Sin's defensive options options that are useful or not in this Match-up

This is the thread to discuss about the Sin vs Chipp Match-up. A quick overview will be made available once players from both sides give sufficient info Sin vs Chipp -Round start -Neutral Sin's efficient moves against Chipp and Chipp's possible answers What tools you shouldn't use, or use sparingly against him Chipp's efficient moves against Sin and Sin's possible answers What tool you shouldn't use or use sparingly against him -Offense/Defense discuss what works or doesn"t work for Sin against Chipp when pressuring or on wake-up, and Chipp's defensive options that are useful or not in this Match-up discuss what works or doesn't work for Chipp against Sin when pressuring or on wake-up, and Sin's defensive options options that are useful or not in this Match-up

Currently prepping the next match analysis for this Week-end probably ! From now on, if you want a specific match or character to be analysed,or have any question or comment about what's in there, make sure to ask it here !

Oh by the way Giggles, if you want people to help you with your matches, you should re-post it, link was killed by Dustloop update, so either edit it and include your link again, or report it so that it gets fixed !

Ok I'll just higlight some key moments and give a few general pointers. 1:35 : jumping without FD is suicide against Sol in the corner, careful since it happened a few other times in the set ! 2:38 : this confirm is finnicky, and you can't get your calories back if you miss : you should stop the combo at the 214S : you lose like 10 damage for stability, and more importantly, a better okizeme 3;37 : jumping was a good choice here. If you see another Bandit Bringer like this (because of YRC or read, don't forget you can either IB> backthrow to punish it, or jump> airthrow it sometimes ! 4:04 you had some trouble closing out the round, probably because you wanted dat burst really hard. Don't forget that R.T.L is unburstable once the animation is triggered, so you could have gone with that to end the round cleanly. You got the round anyway so it's fine 5:44 good backthrow in the corner, plus trying the optimal confirm, but you missed. Since he had his burst, I recommend doing Throw > RC > 236[H]>214S>236[H] : it does a lot less damage, but is super easy, and most importantly, is burst safe ! 7:05 nice confirms and awareness on how to use R.T.L extensions, but you need to close out the round here : a 236H at the end would have done the trick ! 7:57 I love IAD loops too, perhaps a bit too much : it worked a bit against you later like it does to me. If you're this close to kill him with 50 tension, just R.T.L him ! 11:35 IAD loop here was a great choice, but you were too greddy : two IAD loops into 5H> 236H is already prorated a lot : pushing it further gives tons of burst meter to your opponent for inconsequential damage and bad oki. More importantly, you can set the Voltic Dein after the second loop to pretty much force him to pop his burst or die. 8:11 FINALLY a 6P ! Well, this Sol is playing a very grounded game, but don't fear to pop your 6P more instead of backdashing ! You'll find yourself cornered less often, and even if he doesn't jump it's still okay as a ground-to-ground normal 13:30 Well this happens to everybody, but it is still really bad nonetheless xD. 14:03 After several matches of clean calorie management, this happening twice in a row. Luckily it didn't have too much of an impact on this match, but you got to be careful with this ! 15:46 Nice 6P ! you're protecting your ground by doing this and got away from the corner ! 16:41 Going for IAD loop here was really bad : you didn't get punished too hard for dropping them previously, but this one cost you the match 20:00 I think you're respecting/backdashing Gun Flame a bit too much in this set. I mean sure, Sol can YRC it and all to blow you up, but if you jump barrier, the only thing he can do is airthrow you or extend his pressure a bit, and more importantly, he is blowing up his tension for this. You can also alternate between simple jumps, double jumps, IADs to try and mess up with it. Even if you get blown up sometimes, it's better than to find yourself ground blocking Gun Flame YRC into High/Low/Command grab all the time ! 22:35 Great awareness and simple, but clean and efficient hitconfirm ! 23:35 Just kill him with good all 623(crit) combo. This round was as good as won, and you had the resources for it ! The rest of the set is pretty much the same thing as above, so onto the conclusion Overall I'd say you played quite convincingly ! Your biggest problem at the moment is being flexible with you combo routes : You need to know when you need to do the IAD loops, when to settle for 623S Critical combos, or when to settle for simple air chains. All of your bad drops and you going hungry are a result of that. it cost you a few rounds, sometimes matches. Keep in mind that the better your opponent is, the less chances you'll have to open them up often with Sin, so you have to make every hit count, even if it sometimes means settling for simpler combos ! You also showed you know how to deal with Sol's stuff, but you can further optimize that : -IB bandit Bringer all the time, or airthrow/j.P it if you see it coming -IBing Fafnir makes it -1 in the current Xrd build, use it to your advantage -Always put up your FD when jumping in the corner against him - Don't respect Gun Flame too much : at some distances, you can IAD j.S>j.6H to punish and that leads to huge damage midscreen, if he YRCed it, he'll get about 100 damage on you, less if he airthrows. If he doesn't you get something like 260 damage on him, with corner carry. It's a bet, sure, but take it everyonce in a while ! as said, 236H is also a great option -Try not backing away too much in this matchup. Sure Sol's options are great, but Sin has everything he needs to fend them off. Whenever you played more aggressively, running towards him, it paid off ! You also get to punish some panic reversals in the process. So yeah, try to apply your own rhythm more often !

Well, since other topics have this kind of thread, Officially opening one here I guess ! This thread's goal is to use videos of Sin players and analyze their decisions when pitted against x or x character/player. This is pretty important for Sin. Since, you know, not having real setplay means that you'll have to commit to playing an immaculate spacing game and consider their options all the time. I'll open the ball with a textbook Sin vs Ky match between Zadi and Ain. I advise you to watch the match entirely once and then look at the timestamps and commentary Ok, let's start this ! 5:07 Ain and Zadi are staring at each other round start Spoiler This is pretty much due to the fact that Ky's slight step> 2D is very good at round start against SIn since it's a 7 frame move (+1 frame of walking if done right), therefore beating Sin's f.S and 2S. Here's the catch though, 2D is punishable by itself, and even if Ky special cancels it, he risks being punished as well (Sin's 236K passes under Stun Edge, both Stun Dipper and Greed Sever are punishable and Split Ciel whiffs at this range). Ky's f.S is one frame slower than Sin's S button, so it's not really a round start option against Sin. All the other options at this range are punishable or interruptable, so it's a high commitment as well. Therefore, Ain prefers to check what Zadi will do instead of exposing himself. 5:12 Both players do a dash barrier brake simultaneously Spoiler Barrier braking is very important for Sin since it allows him to be safer and play the spacing game better. This also applies to Ky for the exact same reasons. Both players are still "testing the waters" because they don't want to be caught pressing a button at the wrong moment.I recommend checking all the moments the players are Barrier braking to get a better grasp of it ! 5:14 Sin's backdash gets punished by Ky's f.S, even though he whiffed his 2K Spoiler SIn's backdash is great, but in the Ky matchup it can be really risky to use, because of how damn good Ky's pokes are in term of range and recovery. This kind of thing may look unimportant, but it can easily tip the scales for Ky, which is just bad 5:20 - 5:23 Zadi uses his DP to stop Ain's offense, and then baits and punish a burst Spoiler This is a great read from Zadi, which allows him to steal almost half of Ain's life and completely reverse the flow of the match in an instant. Holding 1/4 after Elk Hunt is pretty much a free burst bait, and Ain learned it the hard way. Sin has many other ways to bait bursts, and the rewards he gets from punishing them is huge, especially in this kind of match-up where getting a hit is hard 5:32 :5:50 Zadi stays fullscreen and tries to lure Ain in, but fails and ends up the corner Spoiler A valid strategy, but Zadi was the first to make the mistake. When fullscreen against Ky, you either want to play conservative like this, or break his zoning using Beak driver (236H) and Elk Hunt(236K) . 5:53 - 5:57 Zadi gets punished for attempting a backdash and burst at the end of the combo Spoiler questionable backdash from Zadi, who probably baited something that didn't happen. Bursting at the end of a combo like that might seem dumb, but Ky can't bait the burst without an RC at this point, and the burst allows Zadi to break free from corner pressure and okizeme, so it's actually a pretty clever decision 6:14 Round 2 start Spoiler Zadi interrupts Ain's round start f.S with 2S, and gets a knockdown and corner carry. As said before, f.S is risky for Ky against Sin at round start, unless you're sure the Sin player will respect you 6:20 : Ain escapes while FD flickering Spoiler Great use of fuzzy jump by Ain to escape from pressure before it even begins. This is particularly efficient to escape loose blockstrings, and Sin has an hard time keeping people to block midscreen, so it was a clever choice ! This happens a few other times in the match, so be sure to check the flickers ! 6:22 - 6:32 Neutral ! Spoiler Zadi and Ain dancing around each other, Ain gets a f.S and a small blockstring but that's pretty much it for more than 10 seconds. Note that Zadi shifts to a much more agressive playstyle than in the previous round, actively trying to break Ky's spacing 6:35 Zadi does a j.D > YRC to bait Ain's 5H and punish it 6:37 ...and completely fails to capitalize from it and end up dropping the combo and eat at the Ain's face and get swept Spoiler A common misshap for Sin players. More often than not, when you're not sure f.S/2.S >236K will connect, it's better to delay your 214H to avoid finding yourself in this situation ! 6:39 Another instance of Zadi's "evasive defense" Spoiler Zadi loves to alternate between FD and IB constantly, even if it means risking getting opened. His goal is to force Ain to exhaust his pressure options with IB and force a whiff with FD. this way, he forced Split Ciel to whiff several times, allowing him to return to the neutral game 6:53 - 6:56 Ain sees Zadi attempt a safe-jump, then backdashes and punishes it with a backthrow Spoiler This is what caused Zadi to lose the second round. Safe-jumping was not a bad decision in itself, but he could have used the DP OS at this point to avoid this ( safe jump 623K - S : doesn a DP when the j.K whiffs) 7:15 Round 3 start Spoiler Ain learned his lesson : step 2D to avoid getting beaten by Sin's 2S. but Zadi was prepared and IBed the 2D. Ain was punishable at this point, but Zadi probably waited for a special cancel to occur, and Ain preferred to walk away 7:28 Zadi burst at the exact same point as before 7:35 Zadi opened Ain with a frame trap after 236K Spoiler This frame trap actually grows stale very fast, but using it at the right moment can turn the tables easily, as shown here. In this matchup, mind the 5K that comes out in 5 frames, causing it to trade with Sin's K button. It loses to 2P but you will rarely be at range to use it (except if the opponent IBed 236K in which case you shouldn't ty to reset pressure) 7:37 Zadi's j.6H is blocked, and then he performs a dash 6H Spoiler Using 6H after j.6H this way is a very high commitment bait : it kills backdashes and buttons,but loses to throws and reversals. Here Ain chose to keep it simple and block, even if it means dealing with frame advantage. 7:52 : after staring at each other, Zadi commits to 2S, which gets beaten cleanly by Ain's 214K (Greed Sever) Spoiler An often forgotten use of Greed Sever. Ain saw Zadi getting antsy and hitting his 2S several times, and then caught up to it, and punished him hard for it. 8:08 Zadi, after attempting to fuzzy jump out of Ain's pressure several times and Ain reading them all perfectly, tries to get out by hitting j.S and fails, costing him the match Spoiler As you probably realized, Sin's air-to-air game is okay, but Ky's is vastly superior. So as a rule of thumb, you shouldn't try to contest it when you're on the defensive, unless you smell an airhtrow and want to stop it As a final note, great match from both players ! A few blunders from Zadi and a very solid and unpredictable play from Ain allowed the latter to be victorious !

Duly noted, I'll correct the things you've mentioned. Glad you like it ! yeah f.S/2S is mostly used depending on the MU, but you should always be using both. f.S has an extended hurtbox and get beaten by low profiling moves and 6P, but it eats jumps-out and has more hitstun, so it connects with 236K more often. not to mention that if 2S beat those, most of the character have answers to it (Sol's 236K, I-No's 214K/S, Ky's 214K and others). pretty much read your opponent and earn your reward

Ok I tried to use the feedback to modify Sin's Wiki combo section ! - Biggest change is the way it is organized : went from " Midscreen > Corner" to "Combo root > Extensions" - Most of the combos were simplified or omitted to reflect the change - Tried to explain things in the most concise way possible, because enough walls of text as it is I'd like some feedback on this, especially from people who found it jumbled, the whole point was to make it more clearer and "bottom-top-like", so I need to know if it works this way !

Wow, just came back from holiday to see the big DL update ! Just answering something quickly As far as the wiki goes, I've been looking for feedback since I'm a newbie when it comes to writing and presenting wikis. I realize the wiki can be kinda overwhelming, especially when you're beginning the character. I guess I could change the organisation, but it's kinda time-consuming. Best would be chopping it up to make it more straightforward, but then, people looking for that kind of info would be disappointed. Until I find a way to edit it correctly and get around those to please everybody, you can still try to navigate using the parts and sub-parts to look for specific info and ask here or on my DL box whenever you need some clarification .Suggestions to improve the wiki are also, as usual, welcome !

2015/07/04 Mikado 3on3 Zadi(Sin) vs Tanabata(Slayer) Zadi(Sin) vs NOB(Sol) Zadi(Sin) vs Nage(Faust) Zadi(Sin) vs Isa(Elphelt) Zadi(Sin) vs Ain(Ky) Zadi(Sin) vs FAB(Potemkin) Zadi(Sin) vs Gazou(Faust) Zadi(Sin) vs Fino(Venom) Zadi(Sin) vs Shaka(Sol) Zadi(Sin) vs Chappu(Chipp) Zadi(Sin) vs Rion(Ky) Zadi riding the Ogawa boat !

Things like that always happen in tournament/qualifier situations ! It's funny, If you ever watch any EVO final after the hype has died down, you'll notice a lot of these kinds of mistake, it's only natural I guess. Sad it cost him the qualification though, we'll see what happens in other qualifiers !

Ground Bridal is probably the only pressure tool that is easy to deal with. It's only plus at max distance or close to max which can't be achieved that often. Also IBing should let you throw her out at any distance. Finally, we are part of the happy few who can DP her out of its startup, and Blitzing it is still an universal viable answer. Air Bridal can be a real pain if used correctly though, be sure to be on point on your AA timings if you call out one. Also, yes Ground Bridal only saw a change in its pushback, frame data for it is exactly the same

2015/07/03 Toshin Gekitotsu 1st Online Qualifier Kabegiwa no DC(Sin) vs Nakamura(Millia) NOB(Sol) vs Kabegiwa no DC(Sin) Also some serious power-up from Min's Sin ! Gotta be ready for EVO I guess ! Mikado singles 2015/06/25 min(Sin) vs Fazias(Zato) min(Sin) vs Sharon(Elphelt) min(Sin) vs Rion(Ky)

It's practically -2 on block, always. Thing is the wave is an attack 0 level, meaning that you have to press your buttons very early since there is almost no blockstun to attack 0 levels. Also IBing it only removes 1 frames of blockstun, making it -3 so it doesn't significantly help getting the timing to mash through it. It's similar to Venom's QV which is a whooping -4 on block, and yet is somewhat hard to mash through it if you overestimate its blockstun. Most people actually either think those moves are +, or know they're - but fail to mash fast enough !

Do note that Katsuyama and Min are also coming to EVO : they may not be the most known Sin players, but they still play well enough to pose a threat !

Back to video posting : GODSGARDEN GG Xrd footage ! Unfortunately most of the Sin footage went offstream, but we still have quite a few interesting matches ! H.H(Sin) vs Gazou(Faust) Saitou(Sin) vs H.H(Sin) Tsu(Zato) vs H.H(Sin) Tsu(Zato) vs H.H(Sin) GAKU(Sin) vs Taka(Slayer) J.T(Sin) vs Roi(Sol)

if you mean R.T.L as a combo ender you just have to use 5H or Beak driver and buffer the R.T.L very fast If you mean the 2P link after ground R.T.L combos. you have to time the R.T.L follow-ups (only possible with ground R.T.L follow-ups in 6) to juggle them as high as possible : the idea is that your opponent is supposed to fall into the last R.T.L follow-up to hit with the late active frames of the move. from there you just link something. Note that weight heavily influence the difficulty and the timing of the R.T.L follow-ups. I advise you to begin with lightweights to get a feel on the timing !

This is not called a safe jump setup but a burst bait. You just need to jump cancel your move and grab them : Bursts are invincible to anything but throws, so you can airthrow all the bursts : you have to input the jump and throw very fast and be sure you're close enough ! I wouldn't recommend airthrowing bursts though, especially when you're Sin : just jumping forward and blocking will beat their burst, and you get a free c.S while they are still in the air, so you can do beefy stuff on them !

Yeah my goal was just to list how non-hitting moves affect proximity guard ! Also can't seem to trigger proximity OS with Sin's taunts and respects, maybe this is char specific ?

Quick note about OS triggering against some moves like Dandy Step :Millia's Digitalis (214K) Sin's Leap and Elphelt's roll trigger the OS BUT Millia's j214K,Zato's Break the Law, Venom's Teleport and Bedman's guard point dash don't trigger it.

From what I've seen and tested, proximity OS doesn't bring as much to the table for Sin as it does for other characters, but still allows for pretty neat stuff . It's too early to tell how it'll impact Sin's game but here are some early impressions. -OSed Beak Driver (2361H+P/KS) on neutral is the first only real nice use I found for it : you get the FD if they try to preemptively IAD punish and can 6P them for free. otherwise, if they hit a button, it's BD CH in most cases. (if you spaced it correctly) Don't forget to mind all the low profile moves, so use it more sparingly in some MUs. Only issue with this is what actually makes this OS flawed if used incorrectly : Nothing comes out if they don't hit buttons, meaning that you won't get your anti-jump out/backdash, so you can't use it to impair their mobility and start your offense : OSed Beak is strictly only used to fish for counter hits safely ! -Osed Hawk Baker(6231S+P/K/H) is hilariously bad for neutral and defense (range is so poor that attacks will trigger it but it won't hit in many cases). Not nearly as reliable as the other DPs, on top of being hard to do consistently. Only use I found or it is for people who like to hit buttons after 6H or Elk Hunt, and even then, it's not great. -OSed Elk Hunt (2361K+P/S/H) is situationally good, Thing is Elk Hunt is already a relatively safe move, OSing it just adds a layer of safety for the times you think they could call it out. You'll mainly use it against monster pokers like Faust. -OSed R.T.L(63214641H+P/K/S) is the biggest disappointment for me : Aside from being invul from frame 4 only, making it a no-go as a defensive option, its uses as a beefy whiff punisher are limited. It could have been more useful but OSed Beak Driver exists and does almost everything better than R.T.L. That being said, OSing R.T.L is still vastly useful as it makes R.T.L a much smaller commitment than it normally is -Leap ( 214P+K/S/H or 214K+P/S/H): is one of the better Osed moves as it is incredibly easy to execute and to incorporate in your game. It basically allows you to whiff punish a crazy amount of stuff at the right distances, without taking the risk of being blown out if they did something else. Unfortunately it doesn't solve the other weaknesses of the move : if they don't commit to something with lenghty recovery, they can still airthrow, or at least block in time. On top of that, BECAUSE you OSed it, if they chose to preemptively backdash or jump, you can't use it to chase them or airthrow them since you will get your FD to come out. Also you'll have to be quick on your punish since you can't buffer anything until Leap actually comes out Even if I don't like this OS, It still vastly improves Sin's passive neutral even if it doesn't bring anything for him in terms of actual defensive options and rushing capabilities (remember you can't do this OS if you're not in a neutral state, so running forward will negate the OS). We'll just wait and see how this will be fleshed out, but this should give you some food for thought if this OS makes its way to change Xrd's metagame !

Completely agree with RTL being better against opponents with higher guts. This is the go-to way for all the ground confirms and air enders when the opponent is running low on life : about high food combos 5H ender height at a reasonable is often around + 20 after the refill so you still get whatever you want as a meaty, and if you really want to be an ass, a sweetspot 214S in critical combos allow you to cancel with a refill and still lets you do safe-jumps and mixups. In any case momentum is definitely preserved when you use higher damage combos, especially since you can get some pressure going with a full gauge ! Nice video ! It's really comprehensive and useful, thanks a lot, Eshi ! Don't forget that you can actually confirm jH instant cross-ups with j.6H even midscreen on everybody except Millia and Chipp (j.S is required on them) and May and Faust. It makes all your combo prorate much less so more stability and damage. But for it to work you need : -Lowest IAD, meaning you have to buffer it during a blockstring or be very very fast with your input -cancel the j.D/j236H in it's very first frames to get the j.6H to link. It's much harder though, so might as well settle with the more stable j.S >j.6H route in most cases !

It actually largely depends on how stable your starter is : things like 236K CH,236H CH,214S or 6P combos are harder to 623S confirm because the pushback and distance make the combos unreliable. But you should always go for critical loops whenever you get one of the stable starters (6H CH or not, 3K on crouchers, 2D point blank,2H, air c.S for burst bait and punish situations, j.6H, j214S CH and other more situational ones). Critical combos for those add quite some damage, but also and more essentially give you better okis : 214S used as an ender gives you time to eat AND attempt a mixup with your resplenished gauge on mid and heavier chars, and 5H finisher for optimal combos let you eat + get a meaty, which is huge for your pressure game Here is an example on Sol - 6H CH> dash> c.S> 5H> 6H> j.S> j.K> j.S> dj> j.K> j.S> j.6H> j236H : 204 damage which is already good + only 1kcal but subpar okizeme options. The good thing is that this is virtually impossible to miss and incredibly stable, and it's possible to bait bursts almost all the way through - 6H CH> dash> c.S> 5H> 6H> 623(crit)> 214S> 214P[4]> j.6H> cS> 5.H 223 damage for only 2k cal more (3k total) : a bit harder to perform but relatively stable on all the cast if you know how to modify your combo routes according to their weight. 5H oki as I said is awesome. you can add a bit of damage with a short air chain to get at 240 damage but it's at the cost of okizeme - 6H CH> dash> c.S> 5H> 6H> 623(crit)> 214S> 214P[4]> j.6H> 5H> 623(crit)> 214S 240 damage 6kcal. much harder to perform but 214S oki is crazy : you have time to make yourself a sandwich before they wake-up, so get your fill and then mix them up ! you cant get the KO on 6H CH and 236H CH confirms on lightweights, but you can get it just fine on other starters if you hit them low enough ! ! - 6H CH> dash> c.S> 5H> 6H> 623(crit)> 214S> 214P[4]> j.6H> (5H)> 623(crit)> 214S> 214P[4]> j.6H> c.S> 5.H 256 damage 6kcal not huge when you compare this to the previous combo, but still +50 damage from the simple combo, which is far from being nothing, especially since you also get a decent oki in the process ! 6H is a bad example here for lightweights since you need to slightly modify the combo on them for 6H CH and 236H CH, but just adding the (5H) and getting the right timing makes it perfectly fine for all the other starters ! Don't forget that RISC has a huge role to play in this too : since 623(crit) and 214S have huge base damage, and cranked up RISC stops damage scaling, the damage bonus you get from critical combos is increased and you can get up to +100 damage compared to a normal air chain ! At the end of the day every single one of these combos are useful, you just need to know what you want when you get dat 6H CH, and get the better combo depending on your resources and execution. Critical combos do make a difference, and even if you won't use them at all times, you have to use them to make it count when the situation calls for it : you get that much more reward(this was damage midscreen, 236[H] stuff makes all of this hurt even more) for your trouble. As it is the case for all optimizations, you can get by without them, but they are there and they serve a definite purpose, they wouldn't be "optimized" otherwise xD