Zephyrion22

I'll correct this soon ! For the normals, yup I only put normals that have something notable to boot for the neutral game (good range and/or good reward on hit). That's why things like 236H rapid fire or 2P weren't included. I also didn't include moves that could be used but are outshined by others (2K is outshined by 5K in spacing due to hurtbox and range, jD is outshined by the other air normals for air-to-airing and air-to ground in neutral due to its speed and angle etc. I completely forgot 2D, jH and 236236P, and will add them though. This is a personal choice, and of course, I may have forgotten specific uses for x or x moves. I'm not doing this just for the sake of doing it, but to help any Sin or potential Sin player. For the sake of accuracy and lisibility (this is meant to be understandable for most people), any meaning contribution or feedback is appreciated and encouraged !

Since I had time, and nothing better to do, I finished the beginning ( yeah I know) of what I intended to do to complete Sin's wiki and one-sidedly posted it. I don't know when I'll have time to do the rest so any willing person to update combos and other topics is welcome. Also, as I'm not a native speaker, feel free to correct any mispelling or weird phrases ! Advice on how to complete/correct some of the points is also welcome, so feel free to send a message on my DL for all of this stuff !

The lowest I got was 1500 too . Minimum damage for DDR is probably really low but the base damage is so high that I'm not even sure we could determine if this is the lowest for sure, as we would have to find a combo with crazy ass scaling to do so.

I posted something similar ago, and it's clearly a good shenanigan but nothing else : you pull it once to surprise your opponent and steal a round and then never use it for at least the next ten matches xD : it's completely blown up by everything but can pseudo safe-jump sloppy DPs, So yeah, be really careful with this !

Just a heads up for Milia you're not forced to block her Tandem (the disc okizeme). The disc never hits meaty and disappears on block so your options are : - DP hits any mixup done before the disc actually hits. -High Jump (preferably with FD for setups in which the disc hits early because we never know) or mash can beat classic DP baits( mash beats blocking at range, while high jump beats backdash baits. backjump is beaten by jump rapidfire jP) Here's the thing though : while most of the okay Milias will settle with the disc oki. the better Milias actually learn how to setup Secret Garden okizeme (the blue orb), which is a bit harder and more situational, but incredibly more aggravating for the one eating the mixup than the disc. Secret Garden doesn't disappear on hit, meaning that our DP and Dead angle lose to this horribly, and she still has many mixup opportunities (she can do up to three high lows in a row from this). You just can't disrespect it, so if a Milia ever does this oki on you, just wiggle your controller and pray you blocked everything right.

This is only from experience + what I've watched, so take it with a grain of salt. -Ralmethal in this ver is the absolute worst for Sin; She completely shuts down our neutral, while getting huge damage and okizemes that can safely deal with our Defensive options -Elphelt is pretty much the same, but it's slightly more bearable since here our pokes can rival hers in some respect. Still a really bad one for Sin -Tricky matchups are Milia and Chipp : you can two-hit kill them but landing said hits is incredibly hard, and they are nearly unstoppable once they gain the upper hand. Sol is hard because he is so solid in many areas, and his pressure is overbearing for Sin. I-no is hard to deal with because of her foot invul and low-profiling spacing moves, but she is still manageable compared to the two bunny ears beasts. Venom's spacing and zoning is hard to deal with and solid punish occasions are pretty scarce so I'd put him in the annoying MUs too. -The rest goes from okay-ish to good in my opinion, feel free to disagree, character knowledge is key in this kind of issue and I clearly don't know everything about the whole cast !

Option selects involving FD and YRC are generally very efficient against Leo. The throw one is very good since it also deals with his 236H YRC 5K/6K option. Even without it, 236H is punishable on reaction once you get used to the animation : If a Leo uses 236H outside of specific setups and YRC shenanigans more than once in a round and catches you with it , it means you have to work on your punishes (or you're playing online against a Laggy Leo xD).

Most of the matchup specifics were dealt with in the Leo matchup thread, so this is just an addendum that mostly deals with Leo's offense. Neutral is clearly for us. First, we need to approach his projectiles a bit differently than the rest of the cast : 46S is 2 hits and can't be low profiled, and it's really hard to Beak driver your way through, 46H is a lot slower though and Beak driver can catch its startup in some cases (doesn't negate the projectile itself if Leo isn't hit, but if it does CH him, the projectile disappears). When you KNOW they are going for the projectile, do K leap or IAD >(j.S)> j6HS to get a clean and deadly punish : both of the projectiles have slow recovery so this will work more often than you think, and force him to YRC them constantly to avoid this. For the rest Leo is overall slower and has less range, so don't hesitate to harass him with our wide arrays of pokes - On offense you will need to be a bit more careful than usual : His DP being a flashkick doesn't go well with our telegraphed overheads. Be sure to focus on frame traps and various baits with backdashes, YRC and call-outs to gain the respect you need before ever attempting high/low mixups against Leo. His jump startup being 5f means he can't really fuzzy jump out though, so it's easieur to keep him pinned to the ground Defense isn't actually that bad for Sin, but you'll need to have knowledge of how Leo's mixups works, and how to punish/deal with his stuff. Here are a few notes that may help you -6H and 236H both have punishable and/or throwable startups. Those moves are annoying to deal with so stop them whenever you can to get breathing room, or big combos if you have the meter to RC it -236S is actually slightly negative on block (-1) , so don't let them reset pressure with it too often. Rekkas are a mindgame which is to your advantage if you defend correctly : IB the first rekka, then wait a lil bit and press 6+K+H or 4+K+H 6+K+H: If he just does the first rekka and attempts a reset, you'll punish it with 5K : he can only block or backdash at this point. If he attempts the second one, you'll either IB or FD the second one depending on the timing you did it : you can punish the second rekka with 2P unless he cancels it by the third one on IB, or keep your FD up to negate Leo's mixup potential 4+K+H : Gives FD after the IB if he does the first rekka only, and throws him between the two rekkas if he attempts the second one. With some training you can actually easily implement this in real matches ! -When IBed, his 6K is only + 1 on block, and his 5P is one frame slower than our 2P, so it will trade/clash with his in worst case scenarios, and almost always wins in actual matches since Leo often ends up too far after 6K, and ends up being forced to commit to 5K or dash 2P, and both lose to IB 2P quite badly. He can beat this with delayed rekkas and 236H, in which case you'll have to use the aforementioned solutions. - FD is just really good against Leo, especially when you're Sin : It forces him to modify his pressure resets or take risks by using rekkas or 236H. Even then, he has trouble keeping up because of the poor momentum his forward dash carries. Couple that with the huge recovery he has on most of his normals and you'll see a few occasions to get at least a simple whiff punish or two -Whenever Leo goes for Brynhildr stance after anything that isn't a throw, Backdash is a great option : if you have the timing for it, it will beat every option he has in Brynhildr. The only things he can do is call it out by dashing forward before pressing buttons with a perfect timing (you can still YRC on reaction to block the following mixup, or be trolltastic and attempt another backdash.). Even without the YRC, he will have to be fast at hitconfirming, as the timing of his dash will dictate if he either hits Sin during the recovery of the backdash (airborne) of after (grounded). Mix it with mash 2P and other defensive options once you conditioned him to call your backdash out. He can also use the projectile super to call out your backdash while preventing you from YRCing it but it's often a huge waste of meter for the reward it gives, and is rarely used this way except in the corner and/or in a round-ending situation.

Wow nice set ! Just a little heads up, since it was visible in the match, and corresponds to the little experience I have of this MU : Sin's backdash is great to deal with many of Ino's longer range options, yes it's slow, but the huge invincibility and distance it travels really allows you to reposition yourself safely against Chemical lovers, and will force her to be more agressive and not just play pokey to score a knockdown.

Just a little addendum for the throw RC, don't forget that if you time your RC correctly and run forward long enough before going for the 236[H], you'll avoid the forced proration and you'll be able to do four charged Beaks in a row on almost all the cast. From there, you can either go for a classic combo ender (the whole thing does about 210 on Sol), or do a VD okizeme (provided you have the meter for it). If you do have the required meter and the opponent doesn't have his burst, go for the VD Okizeme, as the following mixup guarantees a dizzy on Sol and lesser dizzy threshold chars on the jH overhead and the low option (sweep > 236[H]*4) guarantees the dizzy on everybody except Potemkin (who still ends up at one 2P from dizzy). Basically, it means that every throwable move like Fafnir, IBed Bandit Bringer, Dauros and co, when you have your back in the corner can potentially become an opportunity for a comeback from the deads !

Sin's mixup game isn't terrible : His High/low mixup game is lacklustre at best, but he is really decent when it comes to stagger pressure (frame traps are a form of mixup) and lockdown. The true issue is actually managing to keep the opponent in place to do all that since his okizeme is inconsistent because of the food mechanic. , Elk Hunt is slightly + on block, but slightly - on IB (I'd say -2 or -3 based on attack level and IB reduction). If you input and tap H for a Beak driver right after Elk Hunt, it will always be an airtight blockstring , but inputting it late or slightly maintaining the H button will create a gap to become a frame trap (therefore losing against Reversals, but granting you a Beak driver CH against mashing, which hurts a whole lot with a good confirm). Don't forget FD increases blockstun and IB reduces it, so you can't have a set timing to frame trap with it As far as stagger pressure goes, don't forget 2K which is quite useful for staggers, since it's + 1 and can be late cancelled into 2HS.(already covered that in previous post). 6HS also allows you to gain frame advantage (gatlings from 3K, and is also usable on its own in some situations because of it's okay-ish startup for the distance it covers) and then either reset from it or go into late cancel Elk Hunt or Beak for tighter frame traps. 6HS is only +2 though, and becomes really negative on IB because of its high attack level. 2P is also +2, making it a good way to set some tick throws or IOHs, or simply start a string. Using all these options give a lot more things to look at, especially when you're used to IB or FD Elk Hunt, and allows you to save some calories in the process Elk Hunt > critical Hawk never happens midscreen, but works most of the time in the corner, regardless of whether you used sweep or not before. Close 2D into critical Hawk works perfectly fine anywhere on the screen though, making it a great punish for the moments 2HS isn't fast enough

The loop itself isn't hard at all once you've nailed the IAD part, but entering the loop can be really difficult depending on the starter + character you're facing : doing it from 2K or 5D is incredibly easy, doing it from 623S/214S into leap can be tricky depending on your positioning, and doing it from jD is very character + spacing specific. What is hard about 5H loop is just being able to properly enter it from all the different starters.

checked, and f.S is already Jcable, only 2HS got a jump cancel option if I remember correctly

On the topic of rising jH, it's in every way less useful than jD in general (VD setups excluded), but It's useful for one particular setup : on opponent's knockdown midscreen (ideally after Elk Hunt) , do run up instant rising jH with neutral jump : you won't get any combo from the subsequent hit BUT you get a second jH that crosses-up or not depending on the distance at which you performed the first jH (you can do a very quick FD brake on your dash to ensure the second hit doesn't cross-up.Technically, it is possible DP or mash between the two hits, but it must be done very fast (and mind the cross-up/not cross-up for input plus hit auto-correct) or else they'll end up eating a counter or getting safe-jumped. You can also airdash after the first jH to bait Dps/ chase backdashes/ return to neutral if they are really intent on not staying on the spot . When you do cross-up the opponent after the first jH, you get either one or two hits from the second jH, making it a very tricky mixup. Add to that that the vacuum effect and perfect height makes it very easy to link jH(1) into 2HS for a very damaging combo, and you've got yourself a decent shenanigan : there are oh so many ways to counter this (mash, backdash, Blitz, early jump to mess with the following confirm, air throw on non CH hit), but using it very sparingly to throw them off and netting big damage in the process may be a good idea , you'll only get to steal one round with this, but one round is one step closer to victory !

I mostly agree with you but I just need to correct a few things - As you said 5H into Voltec okizeme is not always the route to go for. It's good for when your normal combo won't kill and you need that little extra kick to end the match, but it is also quite useful in some situations to avoid the threat of a burst at a point in our combos when we are low on calories.It can get really painful in a few matchups to get that needed refill, so going for 5H loops to force a burst out of them while keeping calories may be a good idea -While Voltec Dein Okizeme is limited, people forget that there is far more to it than one single 50/50 : when you do rising jH, you can do either jH(1) just before falling or go low. and get a combo from it. You can also airdash for multiple overheads . after a 2K/Sweep, you just have time to do either run rising jD>214S into 5H loop in the corner, or just throw another low. If you use all of your options, it is as bad as anything Milia can pull off on you and is definitely a mixup to be feared when the opponent is running low on life. It's situational but useful enough you may want to learn it, especially for beefier characters than can take on Sin's tremendous damage output. It is completely true that Voltec oki is not something you throw out mindlessly,though, and is definitely not a goal in itself for a neutral-oriented char !

basically, jS>jP>jK floats them high enough to be able to do jK>jS>jK on the second loop. It's mostly useful for heavier character but jK>jS>jK for the first loop works perfectly fine on lighter/small characters. I prefered to include this one and not the variations because it's the basic universal version ! Tweaking the loop for smaller characters is mostly a matter of delaying the 6H at the beginning of the loop . The more you delay, the lower they will be wallsplat, so you need to change the timing for the second 5H to hit them at max height.

That would be the 5H loop : stuff> 2H(3)>(5H>6H)>jK>jS>jK>5H>IAD>jS>jP>jK>5H>IAD>jK>jS>jK>5H> ender. This one is tricky,as it has a lot of chara spe tweaks to it, it can be very easy or very hard depending on your opponent's weight (harder on heavier characters in general) and their hurtboxes when wallsplat (Ramlethal,Milia, May and Slayer have small hurtboxes when they are stuck on the wall whereas Leo and Potemkin have large ones). But it's worth going for it in the corner once you can use it properly !

the jD works in this situation but only if the opponent doesn't FD so be careful with it. If the opponent does FD and jD hits, you can still confirm into either Voltec Daein >IAD>jS or RC> land>66>2P (choosing the way you confirm it is mostly character specific), provided you have the meter. About 2H, it does have its use mid pressure as it makes for a decent frame trap after a properly spaced 2K meaty : with the right spacing you will be out of throw range and link into 2H.Should they block it, the 2H frame trap after is incredibly tight. I originally thought there would be a 10 frame hole between the two, but actually 2H here is a late cancel, and not a link, so if they mash anything that isn't a DP, they eat a raw 2H counter into whatever hell you want to throw them into. 2H's first hit also happens to crank up the guard gauge a lot so feel free to use 2K>2H after a frame advantage if you know they'll respect it. On normal block and IB, you can still jD > 214S, but if FD is used on any hit, you'll have to go for the meter follow-ups to confirm from it. 2D and 236K are here the best options, you can also throw a dust in between any of the 2H hits if you feel like it'll work. Once they respect your options, you can 2K into other moves like jD,dash instant jH RC, throws, 2P link and so on. It's nearly impossible to safe-jump jD because of its startup, especially in a game with different wake up timings. I think you'd better off using the old jS safejump> land >jD>214S. That being said you can still use jS>jD YRC to bait DPs and get a makeshift high/low.

My bad, I thought for some stupid reason that it was +7, re-checked the wiki and realised it was already +9. I don't really get what the aforementioned post was supposed to mean then, I'll delete my previous post to avoid confusion xD

To answer the first question, DIE-chan plays her and does pretty well with her. Inui also appeared in a few videos and did great thing with her too. for the others, we'll just have to wait^^

It's a bit hard to do reliably in a real match, but it is still perfectly doable. the trick is to perform the first charged Beak driver just before the opponent falls to the ground. This way, they can't airtech out of the wall splat and they are forced to go trough the whole wall stun animation. after that you just have to microdash and do charged Beak drivers one after another. This time you want to release the Beak drivers the exact moment they become charged (you can see a little spark and wave when that happens) until you are nearly out of food or too far away. Generally you can get 2 or 3 on pretty much any character , and get a fourth one on some of the cast. Best bet is to do like Gaku and either RC the third one extend the loop and get a knockdown> refill setup or leave it at that and refill your calories

Here are a few mixups you can use if you have 50 meter to spare. they are mostly gimmicks but they still can come in handy to close rounds -jB > A+B+C > instant airdash jA or 2A : Very useful mixup when used on jB safe jump : if blocked, OMC comes out and you get your mixup, and if they DP, you just block and punish. be wary of armor DPs as your meter still gets sucked up (you still get your punish either way). you can still get this on any deep enough jB dring pressure so think about using it every once in a while. -During pressure > 236A(2)>3A+B+C > jump forward : Here, koro performs a 2C that will hit cross-up or not depending on the distance from which you attempt this.It will also eat most of the classic AAs. The vacuum effect will allow you to sail over most of the reversals (be wary of AA rerversals, and Minazuki's counter). .You can do a classic mixup covered by the 2C or do fancy stuff like air backdash jB to get double cross-ups. Lastly, if the opponent gets caught by the 2C you should have enough time to confirm into jA and a free combo.

Big issue is that all of Bedman meterless routes are incredibly short, except for throw, corner dust and Air Blitz Shield combos (still costs 12,5% tension + meter cool down doesn't build meter unlike the two first options). The fancier combos need you to at least YRC. Most of the meter you gain is from playing the neutral game and extending your pressure when possible !

depends on your situation. You'll mostly go for 5C counter since it gives you a free 214B and a combo midscreen. You can go for 5C>2C>stuff when the opponent is near the corner. If you're awakened and have 100 meter to spare, I'd recommend doing this : 2B CH>22AB> delayed 214A>66> 214214CD. it's about 6k for a relatively easy punish that works anywhere on the screen

Some other things about teleports : - all of the movements options are actually really good on TPs (that's the reason why any decent Minazuki who knows the weaknesses of this move will use it really sparingly on neutral and only to call out zoning attempts). running forward and backdashing might help you get out of range, or at worst, prevent him from getting any kind of follow-up from it. - Best option if you're not sure you can time your 5A is just to high jump 7 : it will automatically block both versions, and negate the frame advantage since Minazuki is forced to land from the TP, while we recover our air actions mid-way (It's even better if you can IB it) : you can potentially punish with a jA and at worst get some pressure going against him which is a blessing in itself. Jumping too late and getting caught in the startup frames of your jump (during which you cannot block) will only grant him a knockdown, instead of a full ground combo. -That 5A punish is really good, as you can get SB agi combos on it and get some serious damage going for 25 meter. Definitely something you should work on !