TITANIUM BEAST!!!

You sure about that? The later part of the GF has a lower hit level than the early part, so wouldn't it be techable earlier?

You're having a bit of a misunderstanding here. A "link" is a combo, it is a combo where you are able to combo two moves into each other because the first move gives enough stun or advantage to where the second move is able to combo into it. It's called a link because you aren't cancelling anything into anything, you are doing the first move, fully recovering from it, and then executing the second move. Most combos in 2D games revolve around either links or cancels (two-in-ones, cancelling the first move into the second). When cancelling normals into other normals, this is usually called a "chain" (or "gatling" in the GG series). As for the opener's question, one of the reasons you cannot link two Gun Flames in #R is because after XX/X2, they removed the ability to have multiple Gun Flames on the screen (this was to eliminate rapid GF FRC spam from XX). If the first GF was a CH, then it is theoretically possible to do another GF after you fully recover from the first one and have it combo, but I believe that the startup is too slow for this to work.

Ok, something tells me you don't know what frame advantage means. If you have frame advantage, it means you get to move before your opponent does. So if you attack with the correct move, you will beat out any move they do, even if it is the same speed as the move you did (or even if it's faster, sometimes). For example, at level 1 BHB AC FRC gives you at least +2 frames and that's if you do the FRC as late as possible, it can be up to +7 if you do it as early as possible. So in either case, say you are fighting Ky and you do your 2P, he sees you AC FRC and does his 2P. Both moves are 4 frames, but you are moving 2 frames before him, so your 2P will come out before his and beat it out. In this situation, how on earth are you giving your opponent control? You get to move first, you get to attack first. Rock It only gives +3 advantage on block and it pushes you out of your effective range. BHB can give you a much larger advantage and you stay close, which is where you want to be. The Potemkin example is character-specific and not even correct. Potemkin needs a two-frame window to Pot Buster you. The grab doesn't become invincible until the third frame. What this means is that say, in the above example, if you do 2P after a super-late AC FRC, there is a two-frame gap before your attack hits. If his execution is super-sharp, he can PB you out of this attack. However, in the same situation, if you did 5K instead (which is a 3 frame move) and he attempted to PB, he would get hit because you would hit him before he reaches the invincible window of his grab. Again, this is assuming you did the slowest FRC, most of the time you will have more advantage, so more attacks become available to you. This is also off of level 1 BHB, if you have level 2 then you have huge frame advantage and there's really nothing they can do to attack you. Hintalove: AC FRC into Fafnir off of level 1 RI? The only use for this I could think of is as a bait. Sometimes, when you make someone block a RI at a long range and know that you have no guaranteed way to attack, you can get some free level by ACing. This is punishable by a lot of things, but not always on reaction. So if your opponent sees you do this and decides to attack you next time, you can AC FRC and then Fafnir: they see the AC startup and go to attack, then eat the Fafnir on CH. Overall, not really a solid strat, just a trick. reaVer: lvl1BHB in combos reduces damage less than lvl2BHB and it also gives you a way to get some good damage if you happen to connect with a hit and you don't have any Charge but you have a little Tension (string into lvl1BHB, link Fafnir, juggle). You can also do this combo even if you have level 2 by using Charge Keep and this means you can use your level 2 to get a knockdown after you juggle from the Fafnir.

That works pretty well, unless I'm cancelling a poke into Rock It, in which case they'll probably get hit out of jump startup. I've reacted to Slayer's super-fast IAD with a j.P out of my dash pretty easily, doing a GB shouldn't be much harder than that. In any case, check your PMs.

Not on every CH, only on 2nd hit and only from certain spacing. Fafnir, any CH, massive damage. Big difference. You have one option (Fafnir) that covers one problematic scenario (ground pokes) and leaves the door open for your other option (dashing). Dashing already covers both backdash and jumping away, which is 2 scenarios right there and immediately proves what you just said to be wrong. I could stop here but my goal is to promote an understanding of the situation, not to win an argument. From your second option (dashing) you have the ability to react to any other option your opponent chooses to counter your first option (Fafnir). So really, you have one option that covers every other scenario besides the one your first option beats. The key word here is "react". If you were guessing at what your opponent was going to do, you'd be right. But in general, you can react to what your opponent does to evade or counter your Fafnir option and thus the situation is greatly to your advantage. I can understand if you have bad reaction time how you would think this is not to your favor, but generally reacting to things like someone IADing at you when you are dashing forward is pretty easy, especially if you know that they have the option to IAD at you and are expecting them to try. Great, go ahead and name some. I shouldn't even have to ask you to do that, you should have already started naming them off when you made this post.

VV has far less payoff even on normal hit than Fafnir, you have to RC it to do similar or better damage and that costs twice as much as Fafnir does. The CH damage isn't even really comparable, Fafnir is easily superior in that aspect. VV is capable of interrupting more stuff but it's also just as easy or even easier to bait and you usually get punished worse if your VV gets baited as opposed to if Fafnir gets baited. Honestly, you'll hit with Fafnir way more often than you would hit with VV, it's a better move IMO.

You're looking at it wrong. Your opponent has to choose between multiple options whereas you have one or two options that counter all of those. How is that bad for you? More doesn't always equal good, you have to actually look at what is happening in the situation. The situations you are describing with Sol and Potemkin are the same as the situation for HOS in this scenario. Basically, you are creating a situation where you can dash at your opponent no matter what he does, because you are eliminating the main thing that prevents you from dashing at them in that scenario. They have options to deal with you Fafnir, but almost all of them are bad if you choose to dash forward instead and most of them don't even really counter Fafnir, they just prevent the situation of "oh shit I just ate Fafnir CH and I'm going to die". This is a good idea, not a bad one.

And where did I say I would not pay attention to what my opponent is doing? Learn to READ. Again, there is nothing different about what you're saying, it's the same thing. Yeah, I understand that Potemkin has an option to deal with this, I have acknowledged that some characters have things they can do that make this situation much easier for them to deal with. Shit, that's how this whole conversation got started in the first place. You're the one who seems to be incapable of understanding others and continues to hammer the same points over and over with no resolution in sight. I have mentioned this multiple times, again, learn how to read. You're being really obstinate for no reason. Dash break, bait Viper, punish the fuck out of Sol, suddenly he doesn't want to Viper anymore. Pretty simple. Unless he has 50% meter, random Viper at that range is a horrible idea in terms of risk/reward. Hi, this is what I've been talking about the whole time, nobody wants to get CH by Fafnir more than once. Even just one time is too much. The fear you inspire with the move then makes them do things that would otherwise be a bad/dumb idea and suddenly you can run your regular game on them with ease. That's the whole point of the strategy. Yeah, unless you see him start up BRP when you are dashing and then punish the BRP with a SV or even by guarding it. Again, we are getting into character-specific options and these can be dealt with more easily than you think. Shit, you dash, see the BRP startup, jump and IB, land, punish. Is it easy? Not initially, but with practice it is definitely possible and you can do it on reaction. You can even Slashback that move and punish him really badly for it. I'm not advocating doing a random GB in anticipation of an IAD, I'm saying you dash, you see the IAD startup, you GB on reaction. You don't even have to do this, you can do instant j.P or reaction Storm Viper when you see the dash and it's pretty free. FD break, block the BRP, SB the second hit. Now HOS is hurting. Again, this can be done on reaction if you are quick. Wow, aren't you smart. Same as...oh wait, same as Slayer's 2HS! Means you can counter it in the same manner. Except HOS has to use 25% meter. We can sit here all day and pick through character-specific counters to this tactic, I am aware they exist. This does not suddenly shut down the tactic. It does not change the fact that intelligent use of the tactic puts you in an advantageous position. Johnny needs 50% to continue the combo and if he guesses wrong you punish the fuck out of him. The list goes on and on and yet it is STILL A SITUATION IN YOUR FAVOR no matter how you look at it. There are a few exceptions where the tactic can be shut down hard, but otherwise the opponent is taking major risks to counter it and you can counter their counters pretty easily and again, often on reaction.

lol you say this and then you post something like "too bad we're not mind readers", you realize how silly that sounds? There is no way to 100% know someone is going to attack, so regardless of trying to say my intent or "purpose" is different, the fact is that the situation is the the exact same and you're doing the exact same thing. The rest of it is just semantics. Naturally, the more in tune you are with your opponent's habits, the more successful this technique will be, but again, there is no way to 100% know your opponent is going to attack. Don't talk as if I would just throw out Fafnir without taking my opponent into account because I never stated this, naturally this type of play is never a good idea. The only 100% deals you get are when you are whiff punishing, since you can visually confirm that your opponent just attacked and missed and you have time to hit him before he can recover. My point in saying this was that yes, if your opponent feels you are going to do Fafnir (and he has to feel, again, no way to 100% know) then yes, in a sense it is "guaranteed" or "free". But if you dash, you don't have to deal with it like that. The fact that using Fafnir forces them to do something like this means you are making them commit to something that is normally this really bad idea and you can cover it with just one option, you don't have to do anywhere near as much guesswork as they do. It goes something like this: You: I just made them block my Rock It and have 25% meter, I can now Fafnir or dash forward and close distance/react to what they do to counter my Fafnir. If I guess right on the Fafnir I can deal a lot of damage but I might take a lot of damage if I guess wrong. If I dash forward and guess right I improve my position but if I guess wrong I might get hit and pushed out/comboed. Here you have a simple 50/50 against most characters, it's pretty easy. After a few CH Fafnirs, most people will do anything BUT hit a button and thus the dashing in is a pretty safe bet, then you just have to pick the right choice against their counter option. Generally this is in your favor, some characters are an exception (again, Slayer, Testament, etc). Most other characters: Ok I can't attack since if he Fafnirs I will eat a CH and lose 60%. If I backdash I can evade the Fafnir but if he dashes forward he will get in range for free. If I jump back, same scenario and I can't punish him for whiffing the Fafnir from that range. If I sit and block, I can't punish the Fafnir due to it's quick recovery and the range he's doing it at, if he dashes forward he gets in for free. If I jump/IAD towards him I can punish him for the Fafnir, but if he dashes then he can react to my jump with any one of his multiple anti-air options like j.P/SV/GB or airthrow me. So as you can see, the other person has multiple options but most of them do not grant them a big reward and if they choose wrong in any of these situations, it's greatly to your benefit. You're taking what would normally be a difficult situation for HOS and using it to gain control of the match, and you're doing it with only two options (Fafnir or dash forward).

copy/paste from the Gen Discussion thread: So yeah, looking at level 3 BHB, which is +37 on block, you have to wait over half a second from the point when you recover from the move in order to attempt a successful throw.

I really don't get what you're trying to argue here for. You're saying the mixup is a bad idea but you describe the exact same situation and call it a good idea. Punishing someone for attacking out of a "neutral" situation? That's exactly what's happening in the scenario I've described. Then you post about how Slayer has too many ways around it and that was the exact point I was trying to make with my first post. Seems like you're just arguing to argue at this point. As for other characters, is it really a good idea for any character to randomly IAD at you because they think you might Fafnir? Fafnir is fast, you can't react to it in that manner. Now if they IAD and you dashed forward, you can usually GB and at worst, you'll both whiff entirely and be at a distance from each other (you get a free Charge out of this). They might even get CH by your GB and then you profit. If they do anything other than poke at you when you dash, you are going to be at a positional advantage, barring a few character-specifc techniques (Testament forward Beast, Potemkin Hammerfall) and even those techs have their weaknesses. Slayer just has the most "safe" options. 5K is hands down the best anti-Fafnir tool I've seen so far since it's practically no risk and very high reward depending on the situation (hitconfirm to DOT FRC for big damage). But yeah, what was your point again?

Again, this is ONLY in the Slayer matchup and that's the only reason I brought it up in the first place, please read more carefully before you answer like this. The average character who tries to IAD over your stuff isn't even going to get a good followup, you can actually GB them if you choose to dash forward and you see them IAD. They won't do this for the same reason that you wouldn't want to do your own IAD. Again, the only reason I brought this up was to point out that what is an otherwise effective tactic for HOS against most characters is much more difficult to use against Slayer and this contributes to the difficulty of the Slayer matchup. Even in this circumstance, you still see players using the tactic against Slayer players, kaqn used it quite a bit when he was still using HOS. Dude, have you just not been reading at all? This is the EXACT scenario I've been describing here and you're sitting there at first telling me it's too risky, and now you're repeating it and saying it's good? This has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

This would work but it is generally much riskier and is not as flexible as simply doing j.P. If you do j.P and he does 5K, you still have options like double jump to bait the anti air, backdash away, come down with j.HS, etc. 2D is another option but as noted, it loses to 2HS and even though it evades 5K, you basically have the same situation as j.P, but fewer options. j.P can also cover a forward jump from Slayer (he anticipates Fafnir and jumps or IADs forward to try for a CH j.HS, you j.P and hit him for a short aircombo), which 2D does not cover. In any case, if your execution is proper, 2S is not a problem (at worst you will trade and that is still massively in your favor since you will only get a minor stun and he will get CH launched). This is more or less just a warning to make sure your execution is tight. I understand that you are in a position that is not ideal, the point of this mixup is to CREATE an ideal position from one that is not necessarily good for you. If you work the mixup well enough, you create a scenario where your opponent is being passive (backdashing or jumping away to evade your Fafnir) and this instantly puts you back in the driver's seat as far as offense since you can just dash up to your opponent and get right back in your ideal range. This is part of what makes the mixup as good as it is. The situation appears to be starkly against you since long range is not HOS's specialty. This encourages your opponent to be more aggressive (poking to keep you from closing distance) and initially it seems safe for them to do so. You can take advantage of this imagined advantage to really hurt your opponent and encourage them to be more passive, which allows you to more easily establish your preferred range. Slayer is one of the few characters where this is not as viable since he has many more options to counter you, this is why I brought it up in context of why the Slayer matchup is more difficult for HOS. Against many characters, you can simply Fafnir until they start to run away from you and then you have the freedom to dash or jump at them to close distance.

lol that doesn't mean this thread is suddenly worthless or off-limits for discussion. If anything there is always the option to copy-paste stuff into the other threads.

I think part of what makes the Slayer matchup annoying is that he has more answers for your options when you put him in a scenario compared to other characters. For example, say you make your opponent block something that pushes you out a little far and gives you a small frame advantage, like lvl1 Rock It. Against most characters, you can threaten with a Fafnir here and it discourages them from trying to poke you to prevent you from rushing on them, this gives you a slight positional advantage that you wouldn't have otherwise and lets you rush in since they will be more motivated to take a passive action such as jumping away or backdashing or even just blocking; all of these are advantageous to your main strategy, which is to RTSD. Now Slayer has two options that shut your Fafnir down in this situation. He can 5K, which is practically no risk to him and CHs your Fafnir, giving him free whatever. He can also do 2HS, which evades your Fafnir in this situation and CHs you for major pain. You can do an instant j.P to evade both of these, but in the case of the 5K, he recovers so fast that he may actually be able to 2S you before you can get your j.HS out to hit him. 2HS of course is a free hit for you. It should also be noted that unless you buffer Fafnir so it comes out immediately after you recover from the Rock It, he can do 2S and this will beat out both your j.P and your Fafnir options (this hurts either way since CH 2S gives free 2HS -> BBU on grounded hit and free death juggles on air hit). Buffering Fafnir from Rock It in this manner is not only very difficult (due to Action Charge command overlap), but it also means you are committing somewhat and you can't be as flexible with your midscreen game. The easiest answer to this situation is to just wait a half second or so. If you see the 2S, you can CH-punish it in recovery with Fafnir, which is horrible for Slayer. If you see the 2HS and you have quick reflexes, you can do a late-timed Fafnir which will evade the 2HS and hit Slayer. 5K will whiff, but this isn't a huge deal for Slayer, yet another reason why 5K is his best option here.

Dunno if it helps, but he plays the D-color HOS (black w/blue trim and white hair) and he's infamous for ridiculous amount of SV spam in some vids.

Level 3 BHB is a fantastic meaty. And how can you call +37 on block "disappointing blockstun"? If you AC FRC, you can get it to be +46. Either way you have enough time to do some ridiculous mixups. The followup potential after a level 3 BHB is really out of this world, you can do so many things. One followup not mentioned is 6P, you can land 6P after a level 3 BHB in the corner and then do 5HS to juggle into a loop, this does massive damage, more than doing 2D CC and it's easier too. I felt I should also mention that most of those followups do not require you to FRC the AC, you can just do level 3 BHB AC and still combo into pretty much all of those followups. Even in pressure you can AC without FRC and have good grounded pressure options, you are still at +23 even if you don't FRC. You just have more options if you FRC, you can charge back up a little and then attack, possibly with another level 3, or you can jump and do guard break options from j.S, etc.

Faust and Axl can be pretty bad, but I don't have much trouble with Venom for some reason. Maybe I have yet to fight a truly expert Venom but honestly he just doesn't seem as bad as HOS's other bad matchups. Ball formations are annoying but he needs space to set them up so if you are aggressive you can prevent that. 6P is a huge pain, but 2D goes under his far S pretty easily for CH into combo and 6HS is a bit slow, you have ways to deal with it.

Yeah, level 3 GB is probably the best of the level 3 followups, you can take someone to the corner and do a decent juggle there.

If you have level 3 maxed out, you can make the second one a level 3. You kind of have to buffer the move a little bit so you do it as soon as you recover. You can also do level 3 GB from level 3 BRP if you have your charge maxed, which is interesting to say the least.

Well if he FDs, you're at +1, so you're actually in a slightly better position. Unless you did the BRP from far out, he won't be out of Pot Buster range. You can take an aggressive position by jumping with j.P or j.HS as soon as you recover from a blocked BRP (unless you got IBed, which means you're fucked). Against most characters, if a throw is attempted in this situation, they will eat a CH; off of CH j.P, chain to j.HS-D for knockdown. Off of CH j.HS, just go for your best combo.

Er, yeah, in other words JI it. You can also tap up during hit stop of the 3rd hit and just input 214D very quickly.

You can JI the last hit into a Charge and essentially charge-cancel it, which allows you to do some funky stuff. The last hit is level 5, so if you can do fastest CC from it, you'll be at +5.

One way to use HJI for extended HOS juggles is in the corner when you are looping. For example, after a basic loop of j.HS-D, dj.HS-D, instead of dashing up with 5S or something similar, you can do dash j.P-S(or HS)-D, land and immediately do 5S© and you will be auto-JIed for a highjump combo to end the loop. Old Slash combos.

Truth. Hope you don't have any qualms with playing lightning.