Manta

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I can't help but feel much of the notes are all a bit textdump and could do with some decent formatting and paragraphing. Like bolding moves names, turning lists of statements into flowing prose and giving a readable structure to it that lends itself to a reference as well as an in depth read (Most people who will read this will want certain headings quite clear). I could rejig some and PM it if you like.

Terra Break had always been misspelt in the guide, may as well fix it now.

Okay, examination of the CS2 videos reveals thus: 5D and 2D (at least) are still magnetic even after their active frames have finished. Meaning you can strike someone with these moves and they'll actually get pulled towards you slightly rather than knocked away, even if they weren't magnetised before you hit them. Might make ticks a little easier, might mean magnetised people ride the recovery of these moves for easier punishes.

It means that Drive moves are magnetic after their active frames are over, good if you hit, hope it doesn't let people ride the recovery for an easy punish though. I'll take this to the general discussion though.

Better get used to the dial a combo players. Seems like 50% of European netplayers are ranga and Makoto. A few hazamas, Tagers and a few bad noels. Some competent Jins and Lambdas exist and everything else is a rarity. On a more serious note, you'll find many of these players are at a total loss when you can block their basic pokes, and once momentum is on your side you may aslo find that they fare very badly on the defense since it's very easy to practice combos all day thinking how great you are, but not understand a single snippet of pressure escape outside of Inferno Divider. Don't get frustrated, since you'll become predictable and get baited and lose more.

Must be a hitbox thing, 2C is active forever and the guardpoint itself is unbreakable. Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_twiaXAqOo&feature=player_detailpage#t=131s Notice how the 5D pulls in hazama a little after it hits. I saw 2D doing it rather strongly on block in another video too.

So I heard Gravity seed is a reversal. I also heard it's not a reversal in CS2. So meh.

Funny, it's surprisingly similar to how Blazen depicts Hazama minus Terumi.

Addtional Points: 5A: Slower than most pokes, but much better range 6A: Misspelt "given" 2C: Mention its fatal counter property 3C: Better P1 and P2 than CS1, Actually leads to good damage. j.B: Better opening proration. And some Drive notes: Drives: Drives in general now start attracting opponents later than in CS1. However, their pull has been boosted in most cases. All Drive moves are level 4 and can be blocked in any way. 5D: A long ranged straight punch. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism. Wall bounces on CH, stuns on normal grounded hit and blows away and floor slides on air hit (They can tech before they hit the floor). Due to the reduced active time on the attraction, this isn't the massive attractor it once was. But at the same time, you'll find yourself less likely to pull someone in too close before it goes active and getting the move stuffed. 4D: Surprisingly quick attack where Tager just seems to launch his arm backwards. Good active time, leads to wallbounce on CH (easier to combo from than 5D CH), tall hitbox and gives neutral advantage on block (Which is very good for Tager). Very bad if you whiff. Much stronger attraction than in CS1 but otherwise unchanged. Adds 4 seconds of magnetism 2D: A sort of Rhino's charge which covers a lot of ground and has long active frames. Just like B sledgehammer, you'll get punished for using this as a command dash in neutral situations. So reserve it for pressure when you have frame advantage, or after Atomic Collider. Unless you catch a CH with this on its last active frames, you cannot follow it up without RC. However, its proration is very good and its initial damage is very high, so it's well worth using an RC in this way. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism j.D: Slow but powerful horizontal poke with a big hitbox. Its attraction makes it a very useful air to air attack and leads to big damage if you can score a counterhit low enough to the ground to follow it up with AC. Adds 6 seconds of magnetism.

Well, I'm not monopolising writing the content, add your own bits everyone.

That's good to know, I'll add that in now. More frame data analysis, 3C isn't actually any faster, its attack level was boosted from 3 to 4 instead. Not sure, but 3C CH might actually link to 6B (Which does more damage now too, 700 -> 960)

Double posting, so sue me, just some notes on specific moves I thought up. By no means complete, but I'm bored at work so here we go. Spark bolt It comes out fast, wallbounces, adds magnetism, always lets you combo into it and from it, travels at an insane speed and demolishes all non-super projectiles on its way, yet the best use for spark bolt is often not to use it at all. If you're wondering how this makes any sense, think about it. Your opponent can see you have the best projectile ever charged and ready to use in the blink of an eye, they're now forced to respect you from any range, why throw away such a powerful threat just to have it blocked? Use the fear to advance upon your opponent instead like the glacier you are and use spark bolt at some unexpected time instead. Just as a quick reference, the following times are NOT unexpected: Immediately after your opponent techsImmediately after you techAt max range (They can just see it coming)After a poke (5D is particularly obvious) Writing a list of when spark bolt is unexpected would rather defeat the point, so it's up to you to be creative as the situation demands. B Sledgehammer Whilst it looks like a heavier version of A sledge and shares its useful projectile guard point, you'll find their purposes to be quite different. This move is functionally little different to CS1, but its interaction with additional attack has been improved slightly (see below). However, in a bid to reduce Tager scrubbiness everywhere I must make this point; what remains true of B Sledge all the way back in CT remains true now... B Sledgehammer is not a command dash! Do not use it in neutral situations to cover ground as you WILL get punished for it To clarify, Sledgehammer only has a projectile guard point, any other kind of attack will beat it and with its long recovery and big startup, don't be surprised if you get hit with a fatal counter combo for your recklessness. This move is actually pretty bad in combos too, with very poor P1 and P2 values (70/70) and a repeat proration of 55% so don't expect to gain massive damage from it. This doesn't mean never use it as it does punish reckless projectile use and is advantageous on block. As well as all things that are obviously projectiles (Jin's ice swords, Lambda's drive etc), here are some attacks that Sledge's guard point will protect against even though they don't look like they are projectiles. Noel's Bolverk attacks (That yellow muzzle flash you often see)Anything Nirvana doesTsubaki's DP movesJin's drive movesGeorge XIII's electric attackLambda's 5C attack (But none of her other C moves)Rachel's 5B and 2B (as of CS2) Additional Attack Additional Attack now also has projectile guard, meaning your opponent now cannot simply wait for sledge to end and hit you with a projectile for a free punish since you may or may not do additional attack. This obviously doesn't help you if they have a well ranged non-projectile poke but can catch people off guard if you use this move sparingly. Unlike Sledgehammer, this move has excellent proration values and on counterhit it is possible to follow it up with some pretty big damage. Despite its appearance, it has a deceptively long active time (16 active frames!) which means it sometimes hits opponents that think you've entered the move's recovery.

Yeah okay, but let's not get too bogged down in specifics, otherwise my writing becomes an unreadable maze of comments in brackets. Besides, I kinda covered that point when I mentioned skipping out hits leading to better damage.

I'll write some more tomorrow maybe, someone give me a subject heading to write about in the meantime, see you in 10 hours.

It wouldn't be a main point, but instead it would be a note that describes why Tager's combos are as they are, that is, it seems like you often skip out potential hits sometimes because it leads to the next AC prorating more, which is your main source of damage. It also emphasises how important resets are (I'm going to edit that in to make it explicit).

I meant, what do you think of my writing as the meat of one of the guide's sections, rather than what do you think of Tager's combo rate.

Button sounds may be difficult with some recording methods, but a text overlay with the move names synced up with when they're pressed may be helpful.

Let me make a word or two about the combo rate, since that's pretty unique to Tager: Individually, Tager's attacks all deal far above normal damage than other characters, inflicting 1000 or so damage from a single hit is not uncommon. However to counterbalance this, Tager has a Character Combo Rate (CCR) of 40%, meaning that every hit in a combo past the first is reduced to 40% of its normal damage, on top of all other proration that normally happens. This is far more extreme than other characters (The next lowest CCR is 80%). However, Tager's Atomic Collider, Magna-Tech Wheel and Terra Break all ignore this rating, making them excellent ways to boost combo damage. You will notice that most of Tager's combos involve setting up these attacks, particularly atomic collider. Another aspect of this combo rate is the way that most of the damage is front-loaded in the combo, for example in a Fatal Counter combo, you can do 3000 damage or so in the first 3-4 hits or so and then spend the next 6-8 hits trying to eke out another 1000 from the combo. This has the benefits that ending your combos early for a favourable setup (oki, tech traps and other resets etc) generally doesn't sacrifice much potential combo damage, and also that by the time that your opponent realises he should burst (bearing in mind atomic collider cannot be bursted), you'll have done most of the damage for the combo anyway, particularly if you've used two atomic colliders since it has a 45% repeat proration. What do you think?

How do you want any guides and parts sent to you? Do you just want them here or PMed or what? And whilst we're on the subject, I've had a few ideas on a few subject (sub)headings for the guide: Basic gameplay and Tager-specific mechanics that are worth repeating here. (e.g. Jump startup is throw invulnerable, command throws cannot be special cancelled into, Tager's quite frankly arse combo rate and exceptions) Optimal ways to end a combo (It isn't always gadget finger or the best damage). Know your opponent (There's not a lot in the way of safe mixups for Tager, so this deserves a mention) Getting yourself out of rushdown/oki (Basically how to fight against Ragna/Makoto). How momentum changes if you have sparkbolt charged. The armour on 6A and 214D and the hitstop it creates. Sledge is not the answer. I'll edit more in if I think of them

Yeah, And landing a Hammer CH gives you good CS1 damage and plenty of time to react. I often just do Hammer (CH), walk, 6C > AC... Is there anything better than that I could be doing?

The next nugget from the frame data is that you can go into hammer at the last active frame of sledge, nothing new there, except that the projectile guard exists from the last active frame of sledge from the very first frame of startup on hammer, so it is possible to have a totally projectile invulnerable sledge/hammer until recovery.

That does not correlate, both framedatas say the same number of guardpoint frames, and MTW had barely gone active anyway at that point. Maybe the guard point only absorbs one hit now.

Tager's atomic collider listed as 623D, is this correct?

Hence why I suggested it. You still get the 92% from 2C and the 80% from AC before MTW comes into play though